So, at what age are you when Agency and the ability to choose for oneself, regardless of one's tragic upbringing finally kick in? Your 30s? Your 40s?
Yes, I know I'm sounding snooty here. But my sis and I were seriously discussing this the other day... Isn't there an age where you can't really say, "Well, my childhood is at fault, etc..." anymore? I mean, really. How long can this hold water? After all, there are plenty of people who've had it worse and they aren't using it as an excuse... they've overcome it.
Thoughts?
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
While I understand the desire for a universally applicable rule, I don't think agency, in the way you're talking about it, has much to do with age.
When a person violates the law (of the State or of God), judgement should be rendered in a way that considers mitigating circumstances.
I guess the best answer is that as we come unto Christ and receive His grace, we are either fully healed or given the strength to endure in faith--whatever our past experiences may have been. As we come unto Christ, we become more fully able to use our agency righteously--freed from whatever chains of the past the adversary designed to bind us.
Our Father loves His child the abuser as He loves His child the victim, and will redeem them both through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I think it unwise to impose an age limit or timetable on His work and glory.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
I suppose the age is different for everyone, but IMO it's earlier than MOST people are willing to accept.
Hubby gets kinda' wound up about this too... He had a pretty lousy childhood as childhoods go... But he choses to be a great dad and hubby, though he had no example of those things growing up... His brother is the same They both get tired of the excuses people give for not stepping up to the plate at 25, 35, 45, 55... It never seems to end...
There's a parable about the laborers in which the Lord encourages his followers not to squabble over the pay for those who join his labors, no matter how late they join it.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I think it's in our nature to want mercy for ourselves and justice for everyone else.
Justice demands fair and equal treatment under the law, however, and our Father is no respecter of persons.
I hope to receive forgiveness for my own sins and healing for my own soul. Otherwise, there is only despair. It follows that I must also hope for forgiveness and healing for all of God's children.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
While I understand the desire for a universally applicable rule, I don't think agency, in the way you're talking about it, has much to do with age.
When a person violates the law (of the State or of God), judgement should be rendered in a way that considers mitigating circumstances.
Change that last part to "considers mitigating and aggrivating circumstances", and I agree completely.
We humans just aren't given the faculties necessary to see inside the state of a person's soul, and perfectly determine the extent to which they are and are not responsible for their actions. Coming to grips with this fact certainly has helped me in my journey through life. I respect judges in our criminal justice system, and do not envy them their tasks.
Okay, I realize this follows on the coattails of HSR's post, but I wasn't totally talking about sex offenders and rapists here. I was more thinking along the lines -- well, there's that article that ray linked to in the homosexual thread. That was an excellent article, by the way!! Anyway, it talked about how sometimes thinking too much can be a bad thing. Analyzing, scrutinizing, contemplating, investigating, penetrating, probing, scanning, studying, interpreting, expounding, describing, deciphering, translating and understanding... pretty soon you're just in a huge quagmire. I think this can be a tool of Satan, as the author of ray's link was suggesting with his experience counselling with people with SSA. Maybe the searching for why, why, why can in itself lead to problems... Thinking outloud...
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
"Analysis paralysis." At some point, one has to make a decision and press on.
Interesting that you brought up the SSA issue. At some point, one must come to the realization that life is more than a fixation on one particular element of sexuality.
I can see now that's what you were driving at in your OP. When should we, as a society, expect (and I believe we should expect) someone to stop wallowing in the tragedy of the past and start contributing in a meaningful way, or at least stop behaving in a destructive way? I dunno. I believe in social capital. And I believe part of the erosion of civil society (your fuel pump experience, for example) is because we've lowered our expectations of each other.
How do we balance the expectations of civil society with compassion for the individual? Again, I don't know. But I might have more insight after my first two months of teaching Kindergarten.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
And I'm not so much looking at this subject in reference to anyone else but my own self. Do I blame things on my past without realizing it? Do I sometimes compare myself to parents or siblings and feel like I've "come farther" and am satisfied that that's enough? Do I really understand that I am in control of my destiny? Do I realize that what I do today really does matter? Do I even recognize when I've switched to auto-pilot and let an hour slip by... or a day... without really doing anything to improve myself with this gift of probation I've been given? Am I thinking too much again?
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
I'm not sure that "analysis paralysis" is the correct concept here. That implies that no decision can be made because of not knowing what is the best decision from the data available. Not making a decision because of fear of the future results of said decision is more a symptom of analysis paralysis. And, yes, Satan can and does use that against folks particularly those who are perfectionists (e.g. I want to make sure I make the best decision, and since I'm not sure what is best, I will not commit to a specific course of action at any given time until there is no alternative. Example in less esoteric terms, "Hey, you are great and I think we could have a great relationship, but I don't know if we're compatible, so rather than get married, let's just move in together so we don't run the risk of the pain of a failed marriage." Or in another example, the person who spends 10 minutes standing in front of a shelf at the grocery store deciding which brand of product x to buy, if at all, or the one who takes an inordinate amount of time and mental energy deciding if they should or should not do a certain action as if it has eternal consequences when it in reality doesn't.)
I think a more succinct concept for "when does agency kick in" is one of Ray's favorite attitudes to point out as prevelant in our society... "we're all just a victim of (fill in the blank)"
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
So do you ever think it's just too late and you're too set in your ways to change? If you do, I think you have your own answer about the limitations of the atonement.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Personally, I feel pretty open to change. One of the perks of a divorce, I guess.
But seriously, others don't find change that easy. One person in my family particularly stands out... I don't know how they can't "get it" by now! (This isn't any major sin thing, just personality stuff... which seems so easy and obvious...)
As for limitations of the Atonement... I don't think people who are stuck in a rut feel it's the Atonement's fault, they've given up on themselves.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
They don't think THEY can do it. They're not good enough, not strong enough, they don't have what it takes.
Which is ultimately a self-absorbed perspective. And, imo, inspired by Satan.
None of us can do it. Nobody is good enough or strong enough or has what it takes.
This painting hangs by our door. I see every time I leave our house. It reminds me that without Christ, I am damned. Underneath, I have the words from Phillipans 4:13: I can do all thing through Christ, who strengthens me.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
Oh, I was wondering what he was holding... didn't see the nails, and didn't understand the significance of the big old mallet.
Of course, one could also take the picture as a reminder to be on your best behavior and not go and do something that is going to re-crucify the Savior who will pick you up...
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
(This isn't any major sin thing, just personality stuff... which seems so easy and obvious...)
