I wanted to bring this discussion about pop lyrics over here, as it is worthy of it's own topic.
I made comment that many LDS folk seem pretty naive when it comes to the meaning of lyrics in much popular music. A few artists were mentioned, and then we started talking about the YMCA song. Again, I indicated how it seems there is little vetting of the songs played at youth, YSA, and even Stake family dances for lyric contents... if it is just viewed as a popular good dance song, it makes the play list. Upon a bit closer look at YMCA and the background of it's source AND usage in pop culture, Euphie asked the question:
So...are the lyrics bad? Or just for you because you know what they *really* mean? Because I'd never thought they were at all indicative of anything off-color, and I never got any bad feelings from the song... That got me thinking. Now, I'm not advocating anything like a Taliban / Wahabi morality police thing, but I am wondering where does one, as a Saint, draw the line between "avoiding the appearance of evil" and embracing relativism when it comes to pop culture?
How do we teach our children to be wise to the wickedness that so permeates much of entertainment and music without making them paranoid about every little thing that comes along? Or do we just let them figure it out for themselves? How do we not offend their "virgin ears" but at the same time explain to them that music and songs are not always just innocuous music and songs?
I, like many of us here, are from the time before the guidelines existed in a concise, clear, and universal "For the Strength of Youth" pamphlet. When you were a youth, did you ever have a class or quorum advisor, Bishop, or member of Stake Presidency who drew a line in the sand (so to speak), even if it seemed nebulous and was not really enforced? Was there a vetting process for the music played and DJ's at your dances? Or was it just assumed the kids would use good judgement in selection and be good DJ's that would play music no one could question as being inappropriate?
Thoughts?
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
I'm with you that there doesn't seem to be a lot of vetting of song lyrics. I remember that at dances I went to one of the popular songs was "Love Shack", that talks about a love shack as a little place where "we can get together". The inference seemed strong and obvious that it was referring to sexual immorality. As for songs where there is "hidden meaning" or two meanings, those make me uncomfortable too. When I found out that the theme music for MASH came from a song entitled "Suicide is Painless", it forever gave me sort of a creepy feeling when I'd hear the music. Then, of course, there's the whole "avoiding the appearance of evil" thing. "YMCA" may be innocent for many LDS who do not know its "real meaning", but what about an investigator attending the dance? If they've grown up associating the song with SF gay culture, they may wonder about our church's assertion that we teach morality.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
Why don't we just shut down youth dances altogether, since so much nasty music is being played, and the naive leaders and kids don't understand that they're being brainwashed by YMCA and lyrics. Or maybe all church dance song lists should be populated with music from Janice Kapp Perry and AfterGlow.
Vetting, or to vet, means "To subject to thorough examination or evaluation" and "to appraise, verify, or check for accuracy, authenticity, validity, etc.", depending on context.
From a practical standpoint, proper vetting can not occur unless there is an objective standard to go by, as opposed to subjective opinion.
I guess the term is not so commonly used outside of business, but the concept is the same.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Hmph. I figured that the YMCA discussion was being airlifted over here, since you announced a new thread. But if you like I'll go discuss it in the original thread and delete my stupid comments here.
That song is just an example of the topic, so it is fine to discuss here in context with the questions I put forth.
I am more interested in folks thoughts and experiences with regards to the topic as opposed to personal view of if this or that particular song should be on a taboo list for LDS dances.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
I think of YMCA a lot the way I think of Karaoke... Sure it's ridiculous and silly, yet for some reason it's just fun to make letters on the dance floor.
I think we should also do away with karaoke, because it is strange and encourages bad singing...
Ultimately, I think it's all based upon how you view things, cat, and the Spirit you take things with. If you're convinced there's some evil conspiracy behind everything that others find "fun" you're gonna pass up a lot of opportunities to just relax and have fun. But hey, at least you've got your guns, and your underground bunker, and... and... and...
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
That song is just an example of the topic, so it is fine to discuss here in context with the questions I put forth.
I am more interested in folks thoughts and experiences with regards to the topic as opposed to personal view of if this or that particular song should be on a taboo list for LDS dances.
Growing up, we had music at the Stake dances that included stuff like "Relax" by FGTH and I honestly don't know who picked the music or who the DJs were or anything. I think they took requests and if a song was requested enough, it was played. Every single person present will have a different tolerance for the "appearance" of evil. Personally, I take the appearance of evil scripture... and shall we quote it?
1 Thes. 5: 22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
I take this more in a missionary/example context or in reference to sin(s) that I personally have to deal with. Example, if I'm a drinker, I don't hang out at the bar. If I'm gay, I don't go spend all day at the I'm Mormon I'm Gay forum. Some song will always offend someone.
We don't take this scripture to literally--
1 Thes. 5:26 "Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss."
which is just a few verses later in the chapter.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Okay, let's take another example then, since folks can't seem to let go of the YMCA song... sheesh! Maybe if we talk about more than just one song, we can get to the core topic.
How about playing AC/DC's "Back in Black" at a church dance? Or how about Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven"? Black Eyed Peas' "My Humps"? The Police's "Spirits In the Material World" or "Wrapped Around Your Finger"? Huey Lewis and the News' "I Want a New Drug" or "Heart and Soul" or The Cars' "Drive"? Duran Duran's "Hungry Like a Wolf"? Billy Idol's "White Wedding"? Madonna's "Like a Virgin" or "Material Girl"? Frankie Goes to Hollywood's "Relax"? Commodores' "Brick House"? The Pointer Sisters' "I'm So Excited"? Prince's "1999"? John Cougar's "Hurts so Good"? J. Geils Band's "Centerfold"?
Any of these problematic? Why? (note, with the exception of AC/DC and Black Eyed Peas, I have heard all played at youth / young adult dances)
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Ahem. That's John Mellencamp, okay? And I served in his hometown on my mission.
Like I said, every song will offend someone. If you're that easily offended, you best stay at home where it's safe on Stake Dance nights. Or just move to one of those tent cities I hear are being started out north of Cultsville.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Okay, since the public consensus (four of five responders) thus far seems to be that every song could be considered offensive to some minority of the population at a church dance, the proper response is... to do nothing and just let anything be played?
Let me ask this then, under the assumption you were LDS when a teen, did you bristle at the notion if the adult leaders ever tried to employ some selectiveness in the music at ward / stake dances? Did you ever feel it was kind of awkward and incongruous to be opening and closing a dance with a prayer based on some of the music that you knew was going to be or had been played in that cultural hall / gym?
Really, I'm not trying to point fingers or preach to anyone. I'm hoping folks can take an objective look at this.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Hmmm. I think I would have a problem with the Black Eyed Peas. Pretty obvious what the message is in that one. I hate Madonna so I would say no to that anyway. I only learned about the pernicious nature of "Relax" recently so prior I wouldn't have said no to that one. Back in Black rocks!!!
Music played at our stake dances is screened lyrics wise before it is played. The hard part is if their is some hidden meaning how is someone supposed to know. I still don't buy some of the crazy beatles stuff about playing music backwards or people offing themselves while listening to "Don't Fear the Reaper" which is a great song. I guess when I was going to stake dances the only stuff I noticed was the obvious stuff like Salt n Peppa and Tone Loc. Of course kids actually danced back then unlike today where they just stand around in groups talking.
I didn't bristle at adults condemning certain songs. Actually, I thought that was cool.
I didn't find anything incongrous about praying, either. "Please help us not to decipher the real meaning of these songs which we are about to dance to..."
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
I only learned about the pernicious nature of "Relax" recently so prior I wouldn't have said no to that one. This is the point I was working towards before we were told that we were discussing this topic wrong. Lyrics mean different things depending on the context. Take the song out of the pernicious context, and it isn't pernicious anymore. YMCA is an excellent example of this, because YMCA's are no longer used for cruising like they were 30 years ago. There is nothing wrong with that song today.
If you are innocent to the "hidden" or "double" meaning of lyrics, then do the lyrics do damage and should they be avoided? If so, how do you know to avoid them if you aren't aware of the double meaning? If not, then why is it a big deal if songs are played that in another culture are interpreted differently than they are by the poor naive fools at the LDS dance?
Yeah, like who knows what Voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir? or whatever means? If it's not offensive to you, how do you know to avoid it? I guess wait for someone to tell you...
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Take the song out of the pernicious context, and it isn't pernicious anymore.
If you are innocent to the "hidden" or "double" meaning of lyrics, then do the lyrics do damage and should they be avoided? If so, how do you know to avoid them if you aren't aware of the double meaning? If not, then why is it a big deal if songs are played that in another culture are interpreted differently than they are by the poor naive fools at the LDS dance?
That is the whole point of why I brought this over here.
In a world that has gotten more wicked over the past two or three decades, is it good to assume safety in the innocence of ignorance?
Tuberculosis is not as big of a threat in our society as it was prior to vaccines and modern, western medicine. In fact, it seems that the rate of infection in the U.S. is only like 4.9 per 100,000 people. But, in other parts of the world, the rate is still high... almost 1 in 100. And overall, worldwide the number of reported cases has been trending upward over the past three decades, despite the increasingly widespread use of vaccine.
So, say it gets down to .5 per 100,000 people in the U.S. or to the point the CDC announces it has been eradicated, like they have for I think it is polio. Are we safe in assuming vaccines are no longer needed, or do we run the risk of new infections since folks are complacent and don't feel they need them?
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
You lost me on your TB analogy. Try to remember that you are dealing with sub-intelligent beings here, kay? You gotta be a little more plain for this pea brain.
I haven't chaperoned a youth dance lately, so I can't speak as to the music selection. But I don't think that pop music lyrics are worse now than they were in the 70's and 80's. Isn't that proven by the above discussion? There were hidden lyrics then, there are hidden lyrics now. Hopefully the bald-faced nasty lyrics that are obvious are stricken from youth dance playlists.
I'm not convinced that songs that don't give me the creeps on the surface are detrimental, even if the lyrics have a different meaning to someone else than they do to me, since I am so naive.
Hopefully the bald-faced nasty lyrics that are obvious are stricken from youth dance playlists.
Yeah... it is the not so easy to recognize that is the concern. How do they get vetted?
There were songs from our era that we knew (or suspected) were unwholesome that our parents' generation either turned a blind eye to or didn't know what it was referring to...
So, are we complicit in letting our own youth have the same sort of underlying unwholesomeness at church sponsored socials by allowing that same music to be played, even if they "don't" get it? Are we as an adult generation teaching them actively to screen out the bad stuff from their generation of music?
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Btw, if Satan had his way, he would have everyday language and even things as ridiculous as numbers become symbols of sexually deviant behaviors... Heck, even the word "gay" used to have a benign meaning...
-- Edited by rayb at 17:17, 2007-06-20
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I went to an elementary school rollerskate party (grades K-5). They played a song called, "Promiscuous Girl"... I'm pretty sure my kids didn't understand the lyrics of most of the songs, but... it really really bothered me. I don't think that song would be appropriate for a church dance... and now I get a little squeamish when I hear they want to go to a friend's birthday party at the rollerskating rink... I generally say NO now... sigh...
--Ray
-- Edited by rayb at 17:20, 2007-06-20
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
The song is a tribute to Bon Scott, the band's first lead singer, who died. AC/DC almost disbanded after his death, but they pressed on with a new lead singer, Brian Johnson. The meaning of the phrase "Back in black" means they're back making rock n' roll music in memory of their mate. Sheesh, don't ya'll ever watch "Behind the Music"? Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven"?
= What are the offending lyrics? Because I like this song. Black Eyed Peas' "My Humps"?
Haven't heard it. The Police's "Spirits In the Material World" or "Wrapped Around Your Finger"?
Yeah, I've heard people try to link the lyrics to the occult. Sting drew inspiration from mythology. His first career was teaching. Again, "Behind the Music." Anyone?
Huey Lewis and the News' "I Want a New Drug"
Oh c'mon, that song's not about drugs, it's about a relationship that's much better than drugs. "Heart and Soul"
The Cars' "Drive"?
Duran Duran's "Hungry Like a Wolf"?
Billy Idol's "White Wedding"?
Madonna's "Like a Virgin" or "Material Girl"?
I despise Madonna's music, no matter what the message is. Frankie Goes to Hollywood's "Relax"?
Never liked FGTH. Heard this song maybe twice. What are the bad lyrics? Commodores' "Brick House"?
The Pointer Sisters' "I'm So Excited"?
You're reaching, now.
Prince's "1999"?
"Little Red Corvette" would better make your point, I think. John Cougar's "Hurts so Good"?
J. Geils Band's "Centerfold"?
Okay, I'll give you that one.
Maybe my spiritual sensitivity has become dulled when it comes to music. Or maybe I'm not astute enough to grasp the hidden meanings. But that's part of your question, isn't it: If somoeone doesn't understand the meaning, is it harmful?
Well, you just brought to my memory of a lot of songs I like and used to listen to regularly, now I wanna go to I-tunes. Thanks a lot, Cat.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
Ahem. That's John Mellencamp, okay? And I served in his hometown on my mission.
Like I said, every song will offend someone. If you're that easily offended, you best stay at home where it's safe on Stake Dance nights. Or just move to one of those tent cities I hear are being started out north of Cultsville.
Here I am, once again, standing up for my girl, Madonna. I like her voice, what can I say? And Material Girl is an awesome song! I did a lipsync to that at a Stake Dance, if you want to know the truth. (Maybe this is something for the secret vault whatever topic...)
How about Pour Some Sugar on Me? Now there's an awesome song. Remember the girl dancing to that in Helaman Halls with a red "swimsuit"? That was ME, baby!! Peaches and cream?? You KNOW they ain't talkin' fruit salad! (I got that off Behind the Music. )
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Okay, I concede... maybe it is just me... maybe I am the only one who could recognize nasty lyrics as a teen... Of course, to me, the terrorists use of airplanes on 9-11 was not a surprising, uncontemplated tactic as it seemed to be to so many other people, so maybe I've just got an evil mind...
But, on the other hand, by a show of hands, how many of y'all grew up "out in the mission field", meaning not in an area with a large concentration of LDS folks?
I didn't learn that the lyrics had "hidden" meaning or nasty connotations from my LDS friends or youth leaders, nor did it come from bible-thumpin' born againers... it all came from my non-member friends who were big into the music and would go to whatever lengths they could to get to the bands' concerts whenever they came to Ohio. When I got to BYU, let me just say, I was surprised at how little difference there was between a lot of the "good" LDS kids from out west and the typical "gentile" non-LDS kids from back east with regards to music and the attitudes towards it.
Anyway, some of the songs I referenced point towards the occult, some point towards immorality in a variety of ways, some point towards drug usage / making drug / alcohol use "normal, some point towards focusing on things of the world, some focus on treating men / women as objects. Granted, if you grew up in Utah or Idaho or Arizona or other places where LDS kids were not a tiny minority, you may not think that songs can not entirely be removed from a "pernicious context" (thanks Bok, I like that term, sounds neat!).
To illustrate, here is an example of shortly after getting married (been off my mission for barely over a year), I was at work one day and a song came on the radio and I said "Wow! That brings back memories! I haven't heard that in ages... yeah, good memories of scout camp, cuz one of the guys had that on a tape he "smuggled" in and we listened too out by the pond while catching the rays, eating the grapes, and drinking the root beer!" My co-worker laughed and said "Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about it bringing back memories... except, my memories aren't that great... it is from me and my friends sitting around getting stoned in my friends basement to the song..." And, funny thing about this place where I worked, I was working with a couple of former high school classmates and several other co-workers had graduated from my high school within a year or two either way from my class. It was an epiphany to me. In other words, I realized I was the naive one to not think that most every other person I worked with had a different understanding / appreciation of the popular music played on the radio...
From "For the Strength of Youth": Music is an important and powerful part of life. It can be an influence for good that helps you draw closer to Heavenly Father. However, it can also be used for wicked purposes. Unworthy music may seem harmless, but it can have evil effects on your mind and spirit.
Choose carefully the music you listen to. Pay attention to how you feel when you are listening. Dont listen to music that drives away the Spirit, encourages immorality, glorifies violence, uses foul or offensive language, or promotes Satanism or other evil practices.
Dancing can be fun and can provide an opportunity to meet new people. However, it too can be misused. When dancing, avoid full body contact with your partner. Do not use positions or moves that are suggestive of sexual behavior. Plan and attend dances where dress, grooming, lighting, lyrics, and music contribute to a wholesome atmosphere where the Spirit of the Lord may be present. The bar has clearly been raised for our youth, so I would hope we can do our part to teach and encourage them to meet this standard we may not have had or which may not have been enforced as well in our day.
I have teens and a pre-teen, and I know that I have work to do in cleaning up some of the music I have allowed to come into the home, so like I said, I'm not pointing fingers.
What do we do, where have been your successes?
p.s. shiz, Huey rocks!
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
We've always had a lot of music in our home. We don't dismiss any genre outright--yes, we have some Hip Hop, some punk, and even some Emo. But we also have Tchaikovsky and Vivaldi. We have regular discussions, guided by Strength of Youth standards, about what constitutes "good" music. As our older boys began playing insturments and learning to sing, they developed an appreciation for music written and performed with talent. We attend graduate student recitals at a nearby university. Our two teenage boys actually make good choices about music--better than the ones I made whan I was their age.
So I guess if I had to make a bulleted list of what has worked with our kids:
- Exposure to many genres of music with evaluation of what makes individual pieces "good" - Expectation of adherence to the standards in "For the Strength of Youth" - Awareness and appreciation of musical talent - Encouragement to make their own choices
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
What song was that from, Coco? Really, don't feel sad or bad... {in Bette Midler voice} "Did you ever know that you're my hero..." {regains composure and stifles the Bette Midler voice} Whew! What a relief, I thought that was going to turn into one of those strange Wind Beneath My Feet / The Rose moments...
Good ideas Roper. Do you know if the YM and YW programs do stuff like that as well, teach music appreciation from a standards point? I guess I should ask in our ward if they have. But, sometimes the YW president is kind of intimidating, and well, even though they are great man, none of the YM's presidency have kids older than 10...
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
We have a few professional musicians in our stake. We invite them to come and speak at least once a year to our youth about what constitutes "good" music.
One year, however, the musician leading the discussion got on a rant about how we should not listen to "good music made by bad people." When our oldest son concluded that we would need to eliminate more than half of our classical music collection, we had to discuss that concept again in more reasonable terms.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
The funny thing, as well, is that much of the music that today is considered tame, was scandalous in its own time. Think of the reaction to Jazz or to Rock n Roll in their early days. Even some of the great classical music has been considered to be liscentious (sp?) in certain times.
Popular music, at least for the past century or so, has been marketed and made for and by younger people. What are the interests of young people? Pushing boundaries? Challenging authority? Freaking out their parents? Sex and dating? So I think every generation looks at the music of the younger generation and is horrified by what they see.
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I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.
Maybe if we talk about more than just one song, we can get to the core topic. 
Of course, to me, the terrorists use of airplanes on 9-11 was not a surprising, uncontemplated tactic as it seemed to be to so many other people, so maybe I've just got an evil mind... 
I'm a loser, baby. So, why don't you kill me...
mirky needs a wittle nappy... he not as young as he wuz....
