Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Eisenhower solved illegal immigration


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 775
Date:
Eisenhower solved illegal immigration


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html

A fascinating little bit of history.  The illegal immigration problem could be solved, if our leaders had the will to do it.

Key quote:

Fifty-three years ago, when newly elected Dwight Eisenhower moved into the White House, America's southern frontier was as porous as a spaghetti sieve. As many as 3 million illegal migrants had walked and waded northward over a period of several years for jobs in California, Arizona, Texas, and points beyond.


President Eisenhower cut off this illegal traffic. He did it quickly and decisively with only 1,075 United States Border Patrol agents - less than one-tenth of today's force. The operation is still highly praised among veterans of the Border Patrol.



__________________
I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1626
Date:

So round up all of the "wetbacks" and ship or bus them back to Mexico, immediately thrusting families into a life of poverty.  I'm thankful our approach today is at least a little more enlightened and compassionate.

__________________

The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck



Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 775
Date:

Are we running a charity? Is it compassionate to the Americans who have to compete for the low-wage jobs, or whose wages are kept low because of the availability of such low-wage labor? Is it compassionate to strain our criminal justice and healthcare systems? Is it compassionate to the taxpayers of the future to add millions to rolls of Social Security, which is going to be bankrupt anyway?

__________________
I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1626
Date:

I edited out my previous reply.  I've hashed through all of this, issue by issue, in other threads.  So I'll just make two points and be done.

1.  The problems with criminal justice, health care, and social security are systemic problems.  Those problems require a reasoned commitment of resources to bring about meaningful reform.  Blaming all the problems on undocumented workers and their families not only avoids the underlying issues, but also places blame where it is not warranted.

2.  Several months ago, Noel made the astute observation that a nation cannot have both a liberal welfare program and a liberal immigration program.  My own approach is that we should eliminate all government-run welfare and then exponentially expand legal immigration.


-- Edited by Roper at 09:47, 2007-06-18

__________________

The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck



Hot Air Balloon

Status: Offline
Posts: 5370
Date:

Despise not the beggar, for are we not all beggars?

[snip inflammatory comment]

If America is not a charity, there is no charity on earth...

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 10:42, 2007-06-18

__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special.
(Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 775
Date:

But do you give the store away to the beggar? And put the storekeeper's family and employees' families into poverty?

http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/342/26/

"Faced with a sustained systemic assault on US sovereignty, the federal government simply surrendered - and, in effect, sued for terms. Last years offer was rejected as being unacceptable to the vast legions of the undocumented and so, for example, the requirement to pay three out of five years back taxes was replaced by a total tax amnesty.

But just so were all clear what happened: An army of peasants defeated the soi-disant hyperpower. Americas closest allies - the Australians, say periodically seek some modest advantage for their citizenry in return for their steadfast support, and generally get nowhere. But a population the size of Australias simply moved across the border and, despite huge public hostility to the strains imposed on local education and health care, the US government simply shrugged: Theres nothing we can do except give in.

This is not an immigration issue. Rather, this is a fascinating template (to put it at its mildest) on how to subvert national sovereignty....."

Read the whole thing.


__________________
I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 601
Date:

This has absolutely nothing to do with charity or kindness, it never has.

-The government has completely ignored what most of the US population wants, 75-80% are figures I have seen in the past, opposed to this whole program.
-Forcing charity, which at best is what this could be called, is wrong, denies agency.
-This allows an excellent portal for terrorists to enter in.
-This will be a black hole swallowing resources, they will consume, not give anywhere near what is taken.
-They have no allegiance to the US.
-This is part of an attempt to create a large North American EU-type entity and dissolve national sovereignty.

The US govt. gives huge amounts of aid each year, this has nothing to do with charity. It is the corruptness of our government. I personally feel that this is in fullfilment of BoM prophecy about Jacob as a lion. None will deliver and we will have been destroyed from within and without.

There is no need to expand immigration at all, all work can be handled from within. Those on welfare can work, it is just that no one has the guts to deal with it.

__________________
Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers
Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning
Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them
In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever


Keeper of the Holy Grail

Status: Offline
Posts: 5519
Date:

val- clap.gif

And I'll add why don't we get the entire prison system working those jobs no one wants instead of building their biceps and watching HBO all day? Return of the chain gangs! w00t.gif

__________________

Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid.  -John Wayne



Hot Air Balloon

Status: Offline
Posts: 5370
Date:

Val: It's only a black hole if you choose to do nothing to improve your own personal situation. There is no garantee to wealth in the world, let alone in America. YOu have to work for it, study hard for it, and do your best--you also have something that most of these people don't. You have the Priesthood and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, to guide you and help you to succeed. Do you lean upon the Lord or upon the Border Patrol? People are taking advantage of this prosperity thing America has everyday. Okay, so maybe I'm an optimist about such things, sue me. (Then you can be rich... :)

So if you think, The only thing keeping you from financial security in this country is the mexican? I think not. I think that's what a friend of mine used to call "Stinkin' Thinkin'"

All you need is love... and a really big fence. biggrin.gif

--Ray

(As Lemony Snickett observed, an optimist is someone who when their arm is chewed off by an alligator says, 'Well, a good thing in all this is that no one will ask me if I'm right-handed or left," whereas most of us would say, "Ahh!!!! Ahhh!!!! My arm!!!!")




__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special.
(Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 601
Date:

rayb wrote:

Val: It's only a black hole if you choose to do nothing to improve your own personal situation. There is no garantee to wealth in the world, let alone in America. YOu have to work for it, study hard for it, and do your best--you also have something that most of these people don't. You have the Priesthood and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, to guide you and help you to succeed. Do you lean upon the Lord or upon the Border Patrol? People are taking advantage of this prosperity thing America has everyday. Okay, so maybe I'm an optimist about such things, sue me. (Then you can be rich... :)

So if you think, The only thing keeping you from financial security in this country is the mexican? I think not. I think that's what a friend of mine used to call "Stinkin' Thinkin'"


The black hole is that they will suck the system even drier.  The poor do not pay taxes in this country.  Over 96% of the taxes in this country are paid by the upper 50% of people, check the IRS.  I pay out thousands in taxes I should never have to pay for people who did not/do not earn enough, as does my employer. 

Mexico wants to send its people here, simply put, money sent back south is Mexico's second largest income generator, oil is first.  Mexicans will not learn to stand on their own by suckling the government here, nor ridding themselves of their own corrupt government. 

And yes, illegals, Mexican or otherwise, do hinder prosperity, there are higher taxes, illegals don't pay taxes, huge amounts of crime, etc. 

We are to take care of protecting ourselves, the Lord expects that and part of that is the border patrol. 



__________________
Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers
Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning
Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them
In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1626
Date:

Valhalla wrote:

We are to take care of protecting ourselves, the Lord expects that and part of that is the border patrol.

 



I must have missed the address where our prophet revealed that as the express will of the Lord for the collective "we."

__________________

The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck



Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 601
Date:

Roper wrote:
I must have missed the address where our prophet revealed that as the express will of the Lord for the collective "we."

I thought it quite plain in the Book of Mormon, particularly Capt. Moroni's comments about did they think the Lord would protect them while they did nothing. 

The Constitution, a divinely inspired document, requires the government to provide for the common defense, seems that is failed.





__________________
Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers
Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning
Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them
In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever


Hot Air Balloon

Status: Offline
Posts: 5370
Date:

So you equate Mexicans with a hostile army of Lamanites?

__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special.
(Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 601
Date:

rayb wrote:

So you equate Mexicans with a hostile army of Lamanites?



As a matter of fact, yes.  Whether they carry swords or not, they are foreign nationals on US soil without authorization to be here.  I don't care whether they are Mexican, German, Nigerian, Martian, whatever. 

There is no difference, they are here to take something that is not theirs.  And lest you forget, many politicos, Mexican and American, want to carve out a new land, Aztlan.  Don't forget the illegals openly demonstrating, 500k+ in LA alone.  Make no mistake, it is an invasion.



__________________
Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers
Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning
Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them
In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1625
Date:

I am thinking of "immigrating"... Heaven appeals to me right now... biggrin.gif

__________________


Hot Air Balloon

Status: Offline
Posts: 5370
Date:

Not yet, my dear, we love you and need you desperately. :)

--Ray

__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special.
(Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1110
Date:

There is no difference, they are here to take something that is not theirs.Well, if you open that Book of Mormon back up...it's technically not ours either. It's only temporarily in our possession if we obey God, and then only because He has blessed us with it. It's His. If he wants to lead others here to share in that blessing...

They're not all criminals and protesters...




-- Edited by Euphrasie at 10:03, 2007-06-20

__________________
I just like to smile.  Smiling's my favorite.


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 601
Date:

Euphrasie wrote:

There is no difference, they are here to take something that is not theirs.Well, if you open that Book of Mormon back up...it's technically not ours either. It's only temporarily in our possession if we obey God, and then only because He has blessed us with it. It's His. If he wants to lead others here to share in that blessing...

They're not all criminals and protesters...


If they are here illegally, they are criminals.  Yes, the Book of Mormon is for US, we are part of the House of Israel, either by birth or adoption.  I am not sure how you think we have it temporarily, if we are of His Church, it is part of our canon, it is all one and the same. 

It completely baffles me how people equate charity with being flooded with illegals, it's not.  There is a legal method.  Charity is not forcing a person to do something, charity comes from one's heart.  It's not charity to just give things away, don't give a fish, teach them to fish in their own lands.  The perpetual education fund springs to mind here.



__________________
Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers
Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning
Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them
In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever


Head Chef

Status: Offline
Posts: 4439
Date:

Actually, technically, everyone who comes here illegally is a criminal. But I know what you meant. Not everyone who comes here commits further crimes.
The problem is, by having an open, porous border, we have no protection against the continuing criminal types. And illegal aliens do account for a disproportional amount of violent crime.
Besides, the groups that want to "reclaim" parts of the US for Mexico are very serious, have large memberships, and are a threat to be taken seriously. They organize very violent gangs which seek to help them achieve their goal. Heck, US Border guards have even been fired upon several times by what the Mexican government claims are non-governmental military units.
I'm not saying that all illegal immigrants are armed insurgents. But enough of them are that it's a matter of national security to close down the borders so that no illegals can come through.
To my way of thinking, armed, trained people crossing a border with the stated purpose of conquest constitutes an invasion.
Help people in other countries in the best way possible - help them fix their own countries. More people will benefit that way. Fewer families will be torn up. Unique cultures will be better preserved.

__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
- Samuel Adams


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1110
Date:

And anyone who exceeds the speed limit is a criminal too. 

Valhalla wrote:

 

Yes, the Book of Mormon is for US, we are part of the House of Israel, either by birth or adoption. I am not sure how you think we have it temporarily, if we are of His Church, it is part of our canon, it is all one and the same.

 


I didn't say we have status in the House of Israel temporarily.  I said we have the blessings of prosperity (which you implied the immigrants are trying to take away) temporarily.  And that conditional on obedience to God.  If the whole country comes out in rebellion against God, it could be taken away.  That's what I mean by 'temporarily.'

FTR, I didn't say it was charity either.  Charity is given freely.  That's up to each of us.  But I don't discount the possibility that God is leading people here to bless them.

Which also doesn't mean, by the way, that I don't see the dangers or seriousness of other aspects.  It just seems that you paint with too wide a brush.

__________________
I just like to smile.  Smiling's my favorite.


Hot Air Balloon

Status: Offline
Posts: 5370
Date:

FTR, I see Hollywood more as an invading Lamanitish army than illegal immigrants. I think illegals are children of god, striving to find happiness and our approach to them will define what they become and how much they give back to the rest of the world.

Never underestimate the power of Christlike Love.


__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special.
(Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)


Head Chef

Status: Offline
Posts: 4439
Date:

rayb wrote:

FTR, I see Hollywood more as an invading Lamanitish army than illegal immigrants. I think illegals are children of god, striving to find happiness and our approach to them will define what they become and how much they give back to the rest of the world.

Never underestimate the power of Christlike Love.




 Laman and Lemuel were given plenty of Christ like love from their brother and father (and probably mother and other brother too). They still didn't turn out well. Is it love to allow someone to continue in wrongdoing? If you walk in on your kid spreading flour around the kitchen, do you just say, "Oh, they were bored, this is fun for them, I shouldn't make them stop"? Of course not. You stop them and give them something more constructive to do. It's the same thing without our fellow children of God. We don't allow them to commit crimes and other malfeasance just because they had a bad start in life. We encourage them in good activities.



__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
- Samuel Adams


Head Chef

Status: Offline
Posts: 4439
Date:

BTW, Ray, Hollywood can only be seen as an invading army in a metaphoric sense. There is a subset of the illegal immigrant population that can be seen as an invading army in the direct sense of the word - they are organized, supplied with weapons, and are bent on conquest of the area which they have entered.

__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
- Samuel Adams


Hot Air Balloon

Status: Offline
Posts: 5370
Date:

"Is it love to allow someone to continue in wrongdoing?"

God allows the sun to shine on the wicked as well as the righteous. Why don't you ask Him?

--Ray

__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special.
(Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)


Head Chef

Status: Offline
Posts: 4439
Date:

I didn't say abandon those who do wrong - I said use your influence to help them to do right. The sun shines on both the wicked and the righteous. But the Holy Ghost only dwells in holy places. He withdraws his spirit from those who persist in evil doing as a way to convince them that they're going the wrong way. Hopefully they will realize that and turn back to the light.
I'm not saying throw your kid out of the house and disown them if you find them spreading flour around the kitchen. I'm saying stop the bad activity and give them a good replacement.
Illegal immigration is bad for us and the illegal immigrants. It would be an act of kindness to seal the borders and find constructive ways to help them.

__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
- Samuel Adams


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 775
Date:

Here are some great thoughts from one of my favorite bloggers:










THE PRISONERS DILEMMA

Not too long ago, just in passing, my friend Richard Riley pointed me to a famous case in game theory called The Prisoners Dilemma.

Now we need to really understand this, because if we do I think many of our present troubles will become clear.

Heres how Wikipedia presents the case:

Two suspects, A and B, are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated both prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal: if one testifies for the prosecution against the other and the other remains silent, the betrayer goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both stay silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a two-year sentence. Each prisoner must make the choice of whether to betray the other or to remain silent. However, neither prisoner knows for sure what choice the other prisoner will make. So this dilemma poses the question: How should the prisoners act? The dilemma can be summarized thus:

Prisoner B Stays Silent Prisoner B Betrays
Prisoner A Stays Silent Each serves six months Prisoner A serves ten years
Prisoner B goes free
Prisoner A Betrays Prisoner A goes free
Prisoner B serves ten years Each serves two years

In deciding what to do in strategic situations, it is normally important to predict what others will do. This is not the case here. If you knew the other prisoner would stay silent, your best move is to betray as you then walk free instead of receiving the minor sentence. If you knew the other prisoner would betray, your best move is still to betray, as you receive a lesser sentence than by silence. Betraying is a dominant strategy. The other prisoner reasons similarly, and therefore also chooses to betray. Yet by both betraying they get a lower payoff than they would get by staying silent. So rational, self-interested play results in each prisoner being worse off than if they had stayed silent.

Okay, we can simplify this:

If I screw you, but you dont screw me, I win very big and you lose very big.
If you screw me and I dont screw you, I lose very big and you win very big.
If neither screws each other, we both suffer mild punishment.
If we both screw each other, we both suffer medium punishment.
The Prisoners Dilemma, therefore, is an analogy we use to test the results of how people treat each other.

Now, if this game is played one time, the winning strategy invariably is to Screw the Other Guy. If he doesnt screw you, you get off free. If he does, you serve two years. But if you didnt, and he decided to screw you ten years. No one wants to risk that. Screw the Other Guy is the only smart position, and when the game is run thousands of times on computers it comes out the very clear winner.

But! What happens if the game is played again and again, against the same person? Does Screw the Other Guy continue to be the best strategy?

It does not!

The best strategy for a repeating game (called the Iterated Prisoners Dilemma) is not Screw The Other Guy, and -- surprisingly at first glance -- its not Always Cooperate With The Other Guy, either.

The winning strategy is Tit-for-Tat. That is, you do to the guy what he did to you last turn. If he cooperated, you cooperate. If he screwed you, you screw him back. Over thousands and millions of computer runs, using every strategy from complete aggression to complete forgiveness, Tit-for-Tat wins every time that is, it results in the least jail time for you.

Robert Axelrod examined this outcome in a book called The Evolution of Co-operation. (That word evolution having great power in this context, as we will see in a second.)

Wikipedia again:

By analysing the top-scoring strategies, Axelrod stated several conditions necessary for a strategy to be successful.

NICE

The most important condition is that the strategy must be "nice", that is, it will not betray [Screw the Other Guy] before its opponent does. Almost all of the top-scoring strategies were nice. Therefore a purely selfish strategy for purely selfish reasons will never hit its opponent first.


RETALIATING

However, Axelrod contended, the successful strategy must not be a blind optimist. It must always retaliate. An example of a non-retaliating strategy is Always Cooperate. This is a very bad choice, as "nasty" strategies will ruthlessly exploit such softies.


FORGIVING

Another quality of successful strategies is that they must be forgiving. Though they will retaliate, they will once again fall back to cooperating if the opponent does not continue to play betrayals. This stops long runs of revenge and counter-revenge, maximizing points.


NON-ENVIOUS

The last quality is being non-envious, that is not striving to score more than the opponent (impossible for a nice strategy, i.e., a 'nice' strategy can never score more than the opponent). Therefore, Axelrod reached the Utopian-sounding conclusion that selfish individuals for their own selfish good will tend to be nice and forgiving and non-envious. [And, they will hit back when they are hit first, and keep hitting back until the opponent stops Screwing the other Guy; upon which they will revert to cooperation.]


One of the most important conclusions of Axelrod's study of the Iterated Prisoners Dilemma is that Nice guys can finish first.

(Emphasis and brackets mine BW)

Now things get really interesting. In The Prisoners Dilemma, these behaviors are expressed as choices made by individuals. But now substitute entire cultures, where the cultural norm is made up of these choices, and what do you see?

You find the easy, knee-jerk reaction is to form a society where everyone tries to screw everyone else. Its the short-term approach, and it makes sense in the short term. Presumably all robbers and cheats want to maintain short-term relationships with their victims. If they had to meet them again (if the game was iterated) this strategy would be, shall we say, somewhat less successful and the victims would begin to Hit Back.

When I look out into the Third World, this is what I see: short-term strategies for immediate gain at the cost of long-term success. A swarm of trinket vendors on a beach in Mexico all need to make an immediate sale in order to eat that day, even if the cost is being so annoying and frustrating to the tourists that it prevents them from ever returning. Short term gain, long term loss.

I make no value judgment on that behavior, because it works on some level or it would not be so prevalent. In societies where short term values trump long-term ones, it is easy, safe and stable to Screw the Other Guy. But in the long-term, nothing of consequence grows, because nice, forgiving and non-envious are advanced strategies that require a topsoil of general goodwill, trust, and respect for the rule of law.

Societies that embrace these qualities will always out-compete those that dont.

You want to know what that short-term gain mentality looks like in the real world? Here you go:

thai_phone_003.jpg

Do you see any long-term disadvantages to an arrangement like the one above? I mean, aside form the obvious fire risk, who is actually paying for all that stolen electricity? And in a Screw the Other Guy society, why should he pay? He spends money, for what gain? Why not just steal it like everyone else? And when no one pays, guess what happens to the electricity. It goes away.

But as we see from The Iterated Prisoners Dilemma, there is an unnatural island of stability that is far more successful, and it is not simply trusting everyone and being all-cooperating all the time. That strategy is the worst, because it rewards being screwed by competing strategies that eat it for breakfast everytime. It is de-selected. It vanishes from the gene pool, so to speak. You see no society like that in the real world, and now you know why. Are you listening, Marxists? It doesnt work.

But Tit-for-Tat combines generosity and toughness. And look at the terms used to describe the most successful strategic version of Tit-for-Tat: Nice. Retaliating. Forgiving. Non-envious.

Now, this is where my own analysis kicks in, because frankly, nice, retaliating, forgiving and non-envious pretty much sums up how I feel about the West in general and the United States in particular. The web of trust and commerce in Western societies is unthinkable in the Third World because the prosperity they produce are fat juicy targets for people raised on Screw the Other Guy. Crime and corruption are stealing, and stealing is Screwing the Other Guy. Its short-term win, long-term loss.

Alright, now here come the brass tacks:

If you think about it, all of our laws and indeed, the very idea of respect for and equality under the law are written to protect Tit-for-Tat, because Tit-for-Tat produces the best results. You may sell your product at a profit, but if you lie about what it does we will call that fraud and you will go to jail because successful societies start nice but retaliate against those that decide to Screw the Other Guy. The punishment of fraud is what gives us confidence in the claims made by other products. Retaliating against Screw the Other Guy is not mean-spiritedness or a lust for revenge. It is essential to protect the confidence needed to stay focused on long-term wins. And thats how, in theory, you build a cooperative society.

You retaliate against those that take advantage of the common trust. In other words, you punish the cheaters.

If you do not punish the cheaters, you have an always cooperate society that produces, consistently and rapidly, the worst possible outcome because it encourages it selects competing nasty strategies, by providing them with what I can only describe as a food source. Without retaliation against cheaters, cheaters thrive because that becomes the smartest strategy. Theres nothing kind about non-retaliation, nothing noble or good. Non-retaliation is suicide. Plain and simple.

Remember all those stimuli I mentioned before? What do they have in common?

Cheating in class (or getting a diploma without passing the required tests), cheating by crossing the border illegally, cheating by committing crimes and not paying for it, cheating by bribery and corruption, cheating in general rewards Screw the Other Guy as a social strategy and makes chumps of the people who need a level of societal trust they need retaliation against Screw the Other Guy in order to continue to cooperate. Society needs to retaliate against cheaters because not to do so flips the coin from cooperation to betrayal. And thats the end of everything we have worked for and cherish.

And and you dont need to be a master of game theory to know this in your bones. Because if you are offended by cheaters, it is because you are being betrayed into you are in fact being forced into becoming a cheater and betrayer yourself. Always-cooperating dies quickly: if you never betray and the other guy always does, he goes free and you get 20 years every time. (In other words, hes out getting high while you work to support him.) Sooner or later, even the most dense moralist gets the message.

When a tipping point is reached when enough people are allowed to cheat the system swings to a different stability mode (the default mode) and Screw the Other Guy becomes the only rational choice.

The rational choice. Think about that for a moment.

Does that make you angry? It damn well better. And if it does, then you are not alone.








The more I thought about this, the more amazed I became. I could waste the rest of your day coming up with examples, but lets just pick five quick ones to show how several real-world cases can be found to demonstrate the enlightening quality of this idea. In order of increasing societal relevance:

1. You are in a line of cars on the freeway heading for a high-traffic exit ramp. The line slows. The line is the most efficient and fair way to get the cars off the highway first come, first served. But people are using the faster surrounding lanes to get to the head of the line and merge at the last instant. When more cars end up bypassing the line than are waiting in it, being in the line no longer makes sense. Cooperation flips to Screw the Other Guy as the best strategy, since so many people are merging at the exit the line now barely moves at all. These haphazard merges slow not only the exit lane, but also the surrounding ones as people decelerate to find a last-minute merge opportunity. It becomes a safety hazard. Everybody loses. And your willingness to commit homicide increases perceptibly.


2. You are in a relationship. You are nice, forgiving and non-envious. You may think it is loving and kind not to retaliate when you are treated unfairly, but youd be wrong. Anybody with any self esteem knows that if you are being wronged, you cannot just continue to take it. You must punish behavior that tries to take advantage of your good nature, in order to maintain the self-respect and reputation you need in order to be treated well. Failure to retaliate will lead to more and more abuse. Failure to retaliate makes Screw the other Guy the optimal position for the other person: they can behave as selfishly and recklessly as they like with no consequences whats not to love?

Every one of us sees this every day, either in our own lives or those of our friends. Rachel Lucas raised this example when I was floating this theory. She said, You have to teach people how to treat you. Exactly so. One way or another.


3. Criminals need a lawless environment in order to prosper. When simple laws enforcing common decency excessive noise, public urination are not enforced, the signal goes out that this is a retaliation-free zone and the invisible skull-and-crossbones flag of Screw the Other Guy flies from every building. This is why where you find broken windows you will find every manner of vice under the sun and moon. Because if people can break windows without retaliation, then they know the rules and they know what strategy to play.

New York City now has a lower crime rate than London. Why? Because Rudy Giuliani and Bill Braxton made it a policy to enforce the small laws. My father managed the Taft Hotel briefly towards the end of his career in 1979. On a visit to Times Square in those days you kept one hand on your wallet and the other was used to shoo away the pamphleteers hawking live sex shows. Now Times Square is like Disney World. I have walked out of the Viacom building after edit sessions ending at 2:00 am and walked through Times Square with complete confidence.

London, on the other hand, not only confiscated citizens handguns, they actively prosecute the few souls still willing to defend their own property. The London Police once the envy of the world now openly admit that they will not prosecute entire classes of crime. They have, in short, done precisely the inverse of what Giuliani and Braxton did: they have refused to retaliate, refused to punish the criminals and in doing so destroyed the trust needed for people to live in their own homes without fear. They have paid a large price for that already and I hope they have their checkbooks opened because they are a long, long way from being finished.


4. Large numbers of non-citizens want to live in the United States. Large numbers. A society can only assimilate so many people in a given year. If millions and millions of people come here illegally, they are loading the system to capacity at the expense of the honest, decent people who are doing the right thing by applying to immigrate legally. If we reward illegal immigration with amnesty, we have allowed the illegals not only to screw our own people and laws, but even more so they harm their own countrymen who are trying to get here by cooperating.

The biggest losers in our inability to control illegal immigration are the legal immigrants. What benefit do these honest people gain from playing by the rules? This is as clear a real-world example as you are likely to see of the lack of retaliation flipping a system from cooperation to betrayal.

And, by allowing this to happen, you also set a precedent, which I think is even more destructive: you are saying not only to the illegals but to the entire society that laws are for chumps. Cheaters win. How much of this do we need to be immersed in before everyone realizes the smart move is to flip from cooperation to betrayal? How much damage does it do when the very people sworn to uphold the law uphold the rules that allow this amazing cooperation game to continue -- are the ones who seem most enthusiastic to reward cheating? Finding out the cops are in on the crime is enough to drive even the most stout-hearted person to despair.

A steady diet of this message is not going to end well.

Finally,


5. Everything the West has achieved all the science, prosperity, security and freedom is based upon the free exchange of ideas. We tolerate offensive ideas so that this free exchange of information may continue. Disagreement is the crucible of wisdom. The price we pay for this cooperation is the daily offense we suffer at the exposure to ideas we find distasteful.

However, when radical Muslims living in the West demand that their religion not undergo these same stresses and trials and turns violent burning buildings or killing those who disagree with them well, we as a society have a choice. We can be always cooperating, which rewards that behavior, or we can retaliate, which punishes it.

Which do you think reward, or punishment is likely to produce more of this savagery, and which less?

__________________
I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 775
Date:

I know that is really long, but I couldn't find a way to boil it down...

BTW, the source is here:

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000157.html



__________________
I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.


Understander of unimportant things

Status: Offline
Posts: 4126
Date:

Well, posting the link would have been one way... rofl.gif

__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 775
Date:

Yeah, but he goes on to another topic that I don't think is pertinent. And I want people to read this part.

__________________
I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1110
Date:

Hmm.

__________________
I just like to smile.  Smiling's my favorite.


Wise and Revered Master

Status: Offline
Posts: 2882
Date:

Very interesting Shiz. Thanks for sharing. One of the things that has bothered me about the current illegal situation is that those that break the law are not punished and under the current proposed law would actually be better off than those who are following the rules. Why then would someone follow the rules anymore. Of course, your examples put it into much better context than I could.

__________________

God Made Man, Sam Colt Made Him Equal.

Jason



Hot Air Balloon

Status: Offline
Posts: 5370
Date:

Illegal immigration is a traffic ticket. Pay the fine, do the time, and let the people go back to living productive lives. End of story.

I have nothing against building a fence or using technology to try to discover who is here, but I am adamantly opposed to anything that suggests that those folks already here should be treated like terrorists.

Pay the fine, and let them continue to work in the system, building better lives, etc. We already benefit financially from the labor we get from those willing to work a given wage. The congress's attempts to create a compromise solution has been met with the biggest bunch of spoiled crybabies the world has ever seen... wah! Wah! WAHMNESTY! WAAAAH!

--Ray



__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special.
(Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 775
Date:

Ok, Ray. I agree with you that they are human beings and that they some sort of humane solution should be worked out. I am not in favor of mass deportation, and I don't think the majority of Americans are. But the reason people are upset about this current bill is because it does NOTHING about enforcement or border control. This is not a compromise bill. There is NOTHING for the large portion of the nation who want to see an enforced border policy.

And I do think that any bad feelings towards the illegals themselves is mis-directed. The anger should be towards our politicians, for being so blatantly dismissive of the people's will.

__________________
I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.


Understander of unimportant things

Status: Offline
Posts: 4126
Date:

Well said.

__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."


Head Chef

Status: Offline
Posts: 4439
Date:

Hey guys, it really is a compromise bill! It compromises our security, our sovereignty, and our way of life. It'll help make everyone equal - equally poor.
The politicians pushing legislation like this are like the little kid who can't understand why daddy won't let them play with the big dog who's making the funny barking noises and frothing at the mouth. Either that or they don't want to see the american peasant class go away, and they don't want to lose their feelings of national superiority by having those other nations actually turn into nice places to live. They want people to flee here so they can feel superior knowing that everyone wants to live here.
Coming here illegally and working here illegally are hardly equivalent to a traffic ticket. It wraps several serious crimes all up into one: trespassing, identity theft, tax evasion, etc. You could receive serious jail time for any of those. How can we expect anyone to follow the law when our enforcement of it is so selective? Especially when we reward certain groups for breaking the law?

__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
- Samuel Adams


Hot Air Balloon

Status: Offline
Posts: 5370
Date:

Shiz: Then you haven't actually read the bill. As I understand it...  the whole amnesty thing only becomes available after certain performance checkpoints are met, fines are paid, and the fence is built and the border patrol is in place, and tamperproof ids are required at places of employment. 

It's not bulletproof, but it goes a long way to create what most people claim they want... Quite frankly I think you're a victim of demogogery. 

--Ray  



__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special.
(Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)


Head Chef

Status: Offline
Posts: 4439
Date:

Ray, have you actually read the bill? All those checks mean nothing - conditional status, with absolutely all the benefits of the full amnesty, must be granted within 24 hours of the application, regardless of whether any background checks have been performed. In other words, the checks mean nothing because the person applying for amnesty will receive all the benefits well before the checks are met, if they're ever met at all.

__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
- Samuel Adams


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1626
Date:

Shiz, the Prisoner's Dilemma, and the iterated simulations, leave out one vital perspective--the one taught by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount that replaced the old tit-for-tat (an eye for an eye, as He called it) law with a higher one.

The Anti-Nephi-Lehies practiced it with utmost devotion.  I'll choose to follow their singular example than the recommendation of a million computer simulations based on a man-made philosophy.

__________________

The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck



Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 775
Date:

I understand you, Roper. Unfortunately, as James Madison said, "if men were angels, no government would be necessary." The average human being does not live by the principles you mention, and that is what we have to work with in public policy.

__________________
I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.


Profuse Pontificator

Status: Offline
Posts: 775
Date:

Ray, I trust the sources I've based my opinions on. However, to make sure, I have done some research this morning. I can't say that I have changed my opinion.

__________________
I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.


Head Chef

Status: Offline
Posts: 4439
Date:

So, shiz, what's Fred Thompson's position on illegal immigration?

__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
- Samuel Adams


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1110
Date:

Fred Thompson once stood on our south border and glared at Mexico. There was no illegal immigration for a month.

__________________
I just like to smile.  Smiling's my favorite.


Understander of unimportant things

Status: Offline
Posts: 4126
Date:

So, then arm the border patrol with Fred Thompson masks...

__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1626
Date:

fear of shiz wrote:
I understand you, Roper. Unfortunately, as James Madison said, "if men were angels, no government would be necessary." The average human being does not live by the principles you mention, and that is what we have to work with in public policy.

Two thoughts: 

I've made covenants with the Lord to build His Kingdom.  And I believe that can only be done based upon the principles He taught. So that's what I'll advocate for.  I've made no sacred promises about working within public policy.

The Prisoner's Dilemma, and Madison's quote, make a basic assumption about humans that I don't share.  I believe that men are angels.  We just need to be reminded.

__________________

The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck



Head Chef

Status: Offline
Posts: 4439
Date:

Roper makes a good point, although the Lord uses punishment to discourage sin, just as we should punish the breaking of the law.

__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
- Samuel Adams


Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1626
Date:

Again, I have a different perspective.

I don't believe the Lord punishes.  I believe he allows us to experience the consequences when we disobey His laws.  But he always gives guidance and warnings first. He always provides a way for us to obey. He gives us multiple chances to change our course. And He forgives when we come to Him with full purpose of heart.

As interim stewards of His Kingdom, we should follow His example.

__________________

The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck



Understander of unimportant things

Status: Offline
Posts: 4126
Date:

I was going to stay out of this one, but this statement is just too good to pass up on... sorry, roper buddy!

I believe he allows us to experience the consequences when we disobey His laws. 
One of His laws is to obey the laws of the land.  If we disobey the law of the land, we can therefore not justifiably feel we can avoid the consequences of breaking that law.  If the law of the land is that one comes into the nation legally, then by breaking that law, regardless of motive, one should expect to be allowed to experience the consequence for that.  And just because we (ergo our government) has been lax the past generation in enforcing the law does not mean we are wrong for repenting of that lax enforcement.  Are there going to be exceptions?  Sure, and we can deal with them as the present themselves.  But the exception should not be the enforcement of the consequences for breaking the law of the land.

Personally, that is what I think a lot of people see as occuring with the bill, continue the status quo with the hope that people will come forward voluntarily and come clean and follow the new law when they never faced the consequences for breaking the old law.


__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."


Keeper of the Holy Grail

Status: Offline
Posts: 5519
Date:

roper wrote- "I don't believe the Lord punishes."

I would, with all due respect, respectfully disagree.

D&C 19:
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore
11 Eternal punishment is Gods punishment.
12 Endless punishment is Gods punishment.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.


You call it "experience the consequences" -- it's all the same to me.

__________________

Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid.  -John Wayne



Keeper of the Holy Grail

Status: Offline
Posts: 5519
Date:

D&C 134:8 We believe that the commission of crime should be punished according to the nature of the offense; that murder, treason, robbery, theft, and the breach of the general peace, in all respects, should be punished according to their criminality and their tendency to evil among men, by the laws of that government in which the offense is committed; and for the public peace and tranquility all men should step forward and use their ability in bringing offenders against good laws to punishment.


This sorta' sounds like public policy...? confuse.gif Thinking...

__________________

Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid.  -John Wayne



Senior Bucketkeeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 1626
Date:

Good points, Cat and Coco.

Geez...I even said I wouldn't get sucked into this again.

On punishment:  The root of the word is the same as in the words penitent and repentance.  It's not so much the word I have trouble with, it's the nuance.  One commonly-held view of God is akin to a law enforcement officer--He will punish you, cuff and stuff you, for breaking the law.  Another view of God is akin to a wise judge--He will weigh the crime, along with mitigating circumstances, to render a just and merciful judgement.  My previous response was to what I interpreted a "God the Punisher" viewpoint.

Which brings me to my core perspective on immigration:  In order to move forward with justice and mercy on the immigration issue, we need to temper the strict "law enforcement" approach with compassionate consideration of the  mitigating issues, just as a wise judge would.

Finally, before we go universally applying "obey the laws of the land," we should remember that none of us would be here if the founders of our nation had followed that mantra.  They disobeyed to the point of treason and war.

__________________

The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck

1 2 3 4  >  Last»  | Page of 4  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard