The Homosexual Thread

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

The Homosexual Thread

arbilad · Head Chef

Doesn't the Old Testament suggests that gays should be killed.
Yes, but that's the same punishment as for adulterers. We don't do that anymore.

I just wonder what you out there think will happen to all such people with the gay gene.
I would have to say that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all of us, no matter what we suffer from, to repent and come unto him. Even if there is a genetic predilection to homosexuality, it can be overcome. A genetic predisposition to alchoholism can be overcome.

Do you think there is a gay gene? Why are so many who are gay and in the public eye, so talented in music, or art, or theatre?
I have seen no evidence of a gay gene. The few studies that have claimed to demonstrate the existence of one are deeply flawed. For instance, one study demonstrated that the bodies of dead gay men that they studied had smaller pituitary glands. How did they know that they were gay? Well, these were men who had died from AIDS, a disease which ravages every part of the body. Why wouldn't the pituitary gland be affected as well?
As far as talents, liberals also tend to be draw to music, art, and the theater. Are you proposing that liberalism has a genetic cause as well?

Do you think God just hates some of his children?
Of course not.

Why are some of his spirit children afflicted with such tough spiritual obstacles? Did they just get the short straw?
Why wasn't I born rich? Life in many aspects doesn't seem fair. He has determined which challenges will help us the most if we learn to overcome them. I don't envy those who suffer from same sex attraction their trials. But there are many trials that those around me suffer from which I would not want to go through. Someone who has SSA has the same opportunities for blessings and eventual salvation that any of us do.

And I want to know what your feelings are in regards to all this? Do you wish we were living the Old Testament laws?
I like living the higher law. But the higher law, in most cases, is not a replacement of the mosaic law. It is an addition. Some practices were done away with, but most were simply refined.

Do you believe as some preachers have suggested that "God hates gays?"
Absolutely not. But you already knew the answer to that question. God loves all his children.

Is there a way to live in harmony with such people? Is there any middle ground, or are they just so completely wrong that they should be locked away somewhere on an island somewhere? What would you do if you were in charge of reality?
The way to live in harmony with them is the same way that we live in harmony with others - we treat them with love, but stand against their incorrect behavior. Locking gays up on an island wouldn't solve a thing, whether or not homosexuality is genetic. If it's genetic, more would be born. If it's not, someone, somewhere, would be tempted to try. The adversary is very good at reintroducing destructive behavior to societies that had earlier overcome it.
We preach the gospel, we live as examples of Christ, but we do not treat people disrespectfully.

Does the church have a solution for all these questions?
The plans of salvation and repentence work for everyone. Homosexuality is a particularly difficult problem, but I believe that the church is doing the right thing.

Why is this such a big deal now, but was not generations past?
Immoral behavior, in all its forms, is much more widely accepted in our country than it was in times past.

What do the scriptures say about the topic?
The behavior is an abomination, but the people themselves should be treated with kindness and love, and whenever possible, helped to repent.

And is there any hope for such people?
Obviously. The plan of salvation is open to all.

What should be our stance as faithful LDS? Have you had to deal with this at a family level, with children or siblings? Should politicians shun them, in order to stand up for LDS values?
I think that shunning is the wrong solution for any major sin. Even those who are excommunicated are still welcome to come to our worship services. Don't shun them; be their best friend and do what you can to help them overcome SSA.

Does abuse and violence against the homosexual community happen?
Indubitably. But beating someone to death because they are gay is no worse than beating someone to death because they are black, or mormon, or whatever. The horrificness of the crime is no different just because they are homosexual.

How can one raise social awareness about such things, without being party to their actions or associated with their other agendae?
We can educate others by saying that violent actions are only justified in self defense. I don't think that anything needs to be done specifically in regards to violence against homosexuals. I think that we, as a people, need to learn to become less violent towards any person, for whatever reason.

What kinds of doctrines are hard for gay mormons?
Chastity. They feel that, since they can never get married to a man, and they are only interested in sex with men (change those terms for lesbians), that they can have sex outside marriage because to deny them any opportunity for sex would be cruel. That is, of course, faulty reasoning.

What kinds of comments are inherently offensive or insulting to them?
There are all sorts of perjorative terms for homosexuals, but I don't think it bears repeating here. As far as comments that cause offense, I think that any language that diminishes them as a person is bad.

What things do we do that marginalize them?
Failing to befriend someone just because they're gay marginalizes them.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

The end.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

(Arbi, thanks for having the courage to express your opinions)

So you don't believe there are any other opinions out there, Euphie?

--Ray

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Hmmm...

Nope. That's good.

ETA: Or rather, there probably are other opinions out there...but not right ones.

-- Edited by Euphrasie at 18:20, 2007-06-07

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I don't understand your motive for this thread and string of questions, Ray. Can you elaborate a little more? Do you have personal friends who are gay that you feel compassion for? Family members?

Or do you just pick this stuff out of the air?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

...out of the air. bok's nicer than coco.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

I was thinking something else too, coco. But I would never, ever type it.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Me neither.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

My thoughts:

It doesn't really matter if homosexuality is genetically determined, environmentally influenced, or a deliberate lifestyle choice. Homosexual practice is forbidden by God. That's pretty clear to me. As far as I know, it's okay to be a homosexual and be worthy member of the church. You just can't engage in homosexual acts that are forbidden.

I believe that no matter what our challenges in this life may be (including same sex attraction,) Christ will either heal us or give us strength to endure in obedience and faith. He gives us no commandment unless He prepares a way for us to accomplish what He has commanded.

I have two members in my extended family and one very dear friend who are gay men. I would trust them to babysit my children or serve as an adult scout leader for my teenage sons. They are honest and compassionate men. My friend is a an elementary math and science teacher, and one of the most caring individuals I have ever known. He is an amazing teacher who is truly devoted to educating children. He and his partner have been together for several years. They share a house, a bed, and their lives--in a more harmonious relationship than most hetero couples. Sister Roper and I visit them on occasion and have dinner with them. Heck, we might even do a double-date sometime with them because they are such a joy to associate with. My friend knows that I believe his lifestyle is in direct violation of God's commands. But he also knows that I love him.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Roper: Your comments are helpful in helping me have compassion. Thanks

Bok: Do you have any one you love who has this problem? Just how close have you gotten to the issue? I would think it easy to be entirely academic about the issue when it doesn't affect you. I'm also frustrated with the tendency by some to use homosexuals in politics to manipulate votes. Why is "pandering" to the gay lobby more heinous than pandering to say a bunch of lawyers?

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 09:07, 2007-06-08

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

For me there is always this fine line between not shunning someone who is gay and for them not to construe my friendship as defacto support for their immoral lifestyle. I've always worried that being too good a friend might give someone some sort of mental or emotional validation for their activities. They may think that "He told me he doesn't approve but he is still my good friend and acts as if nothing is different or wrong." I don't just limit this statement to homosexuality. I also wonder the same thing about someone who is having an extra marital affair, shacking up, doing drugs, molesting livestock, etc. I also worry about my children getting an impression that "Daddy and Mommy say doing XYZ is wrong but Uncle Teddy and Aunt Steve come over and they act like nothing is wrong."

Thoughts?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Ditto Jason.

The fine line too often gets covered over when militancy, in either direction, occurs.

And then, sadly there seems to be too often employment of emotional blackmail something along the lines of "If you really loved me, then you would accept me as I am and support me in my ways because this is what makes me happy." and "If you really cared about anything but yourself you wouldn't be doing this to us."

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

jase and cat, I think this is one of the areas I really struggle with... the balance between endorsement and the need to show love, the tendency by some to manipulate you either for or against another group of people... the need to take sides at all...

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
Bok: Do you have any one you love who has this problem? Just how close have you gotten to the issue?

Yes.

Pretty darn close.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

As a married with children adult, I haven't had any close relatives or friends who are gay. I don't feel like I have much to offer to the discussion, but I'd like to hear more about how others approach the seeming contradictions that have been raised...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Jason, Cat, Ray, I've struggled with that very issue: How do I continue a relationship without giving the impression of endorsement? A few things have helped clarify it for me.

My friend has never been manipulative in any way--never even implied "If you were really my friend you would accept my lifestyle." If he ever does, I will probably end the friendship--not because he's gay, but because he manipulated my compassion for a political agenda.

Another thing that has helped me is a concept taught by Jospeh Smith in an address to the Relief Society: "The nearer we get to our Heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs."

Maybe some years down the road, if he turns to Christ, my friend will know that at least one Christian loved him for who he is and didn't condemn or ridicule. Maybe that small bit of light from a friend will make a great difference. Maybe that hope is misplaced, but it's my hope nonetheless.

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I have a young male friend with SSA. I love him very much. He is such an example to me. He believes in living the standards of the LDS Church. He focuses on what he is grateful for in his life.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Good answer, Roper.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Ditto to shiz.

What happens when the line gets crossed, and who is more likely or usually more responsible for crossing that line? I don't know, as I have not had direct interactions (that I am aware of) with those who suffer SSA and act it out (other than one investigator on my mission who later joined the Church). Is there ever any going back?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

One of my favorite musicians is Elton John. I think he's extremely talented. Plus I tend to like people who play keyboard. I heard Your Song today and I swear, that's one of the best songs that's ever been.

Then there's Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. I mean, this has to be one the my most favorite songs in thee world! I can't help but sing at the top of my lungs with the windows down! And, you know, I'm one of those people who love to drive with the windows down. Raining, snowing, doesn't matter.

I'm like a dog in the car. Love the window down... Anyhoo-- if I'm singing and come up on a stoplight, I'll turn down the music if there's another car and I'm embarrassed... but not with Goodbye Yellow Brick Road! No way, Jose! That song just rocks!!

I don't know why so many talented musicians have been gay. Tchiakovsky comes to mind, as well...

arbilad · Head Chef

Tchiakovsky comes to mind, as well...

I know that the claim is commonly made nowadays that he was gay. But many homosexuals engage in revisionist history, trying to paint all sorts of historical figures as gay. When I looked into it, the only "proof" I found was speculation that he must have been gay because he killed himself because someone was going to reveal him as gay. That is, I found absolutley no proof. That doesn't mean that none exists, but so far to me it seems like a case of revisionist history.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:
but not with Goodbye Yellow Brick Road! No way, Jose! That song just rocks!!

Poor Coco... no wonder... (FWIW, that song wasn't good IMO when it came out during my early HS years... It certainly hasn't aged well... but again, just my opinion...) aww

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

I think there are lots of cases of over-reach in the efforts by some historians to find homosexuals among historic figures of note. I have always considered their efforts to paint Abraham Lincoln or William Shakespeare as gay as examples of stretching the evidence. But Tchaikovsky I can believe. That doesn't make my love of his music any less, though.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Well, for classical instrumental music, there isn't really much of a need to second guess the music if the composer was non-heterosexual. But pop and rock music, in most people's minds there is always the question of "Hmmmm... so-in-so is now _________ (fill in the blank as to form of deviant behavior or immorality), so I wonder what they really meant."

Let's be honest, LDS folks in general are soooo naive when it comes to pop music to not imagine the worst of a song or lyrics is possible unless it is spelled out in simple and detailed words to them. It's just good dance music... rolleyes

Example: How many of you would really want your kids growing up enjoying Michael Jackson music or George Michael music or Culture Club or Frankie Goes to Hollywood or Elton John or a number of other artists that were played at youth dances (and gasp, even often at BYU YSA dances) 20 years ago knowing today what we now know about them? Sure, we "loved" (addicted may be a better description?) the music as teens and young adults, despite the questionable lyrics we wondered about back then and the sometimes dark feelings the music caused frequently (hopefully I'm not the only one who felt it).

My thought is our youth have enough adversarial influences from their own generation of music, why add to it with the stuff one can be pretty sure is unwholesome from our generation of music.

Anyway, not quite sure why I am even posting this... must be the Sunday afternoon with no nap syndrome!

Must get ready to go hometeaching.

arbilad · Head Chef

But Tchaikovsky I can believe. That doesn't make my love of his music any less, though.
Whether or not it seems possible or even likely, i'd like to see proof, rather than speculation. For instance, I don't have a hard time believing that Aaron Copland was gay - he even admitted it. I still listen to his music. But as far as I've been able to find, so far, there is no evidence that Tchaikovsky was gay.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:
Is there ever any going back?

Absolutely.

And you brought up an issue that infuriates homosexual militants.

There exists a large number homosexual males and females who consider themselves homosexual because they experimented at an earlier age and became addicted. Many of them, through Christian outreach programs, have been healed by Christ and abandoned their homosexual practices. Thousands have their own testimonies of that healing process.

The gay agenda does everything possible to discourage that process. And they do everything possible to de-legitimize the life-changing experiences of those people. They rage against the programs that offer that help. They rage against the testimonies of "former homosexuals." They twist any bit of scientific evidence to "prove" that homosexuality is an absolutely unalterable and a perfectly healthy fact of life that must be embraced.

It's easy to identify those who deny the healing power of the atonement and mock those who are seeking it. They live in a great and spacious building.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

arbilad wrote:
I don't have a hard time believing that Aaron Copland was gay - he even admitted it.

Really? Awww man. I don't need to know this stuff...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Sorry, I'm fresh out of "evidence" for Tchaikovsky's gayness.

I remember when they'd play Relax by FGTH at the Stake dances growing up. It was a cool, fun dance song. Now... I can't even listen to it on the radio. It's just... gross. I mean, I can't even just "tune out" and listen for old times' sake... I just don't like the song at all anymore. I haven't had that strong of a reaction to some of the other artists Cat mentioned, especially Elton John (whom I still say is AWESOME) and I don't mind Queen or Culture Club, either. Hmm... so, does the sexual orientation of the music artists we like reflect on us somehow? Or only if we know about it? Or know about other aspects of their private lives?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Good questions, Coco. I think that they may have some influence on us, particularly when we're younger. But, that is just me. I have nothing to back it up besides the counsel the General Authorities give to be prudent in the entertainment we "ingest." My personal take is that if the artist becomes militant or an advocate or spokesperson for those so-called "alternate" lifestyles, that is end of story as far as I am concerned. Doesn't matter how good their music is. I won't patronize them anymore by buying their work, because in so doing, I can be sure that I am not financially underwriting their activism as a counter-example to that which is good and righteous.

Good comments, roper. That wasn't exactly what I was referring to as "going back", but what you said is good to know. I was more referring to once the line has been crossed in the familial relationships to where things become strained due to militancy on either side, is there ever the chance of reconciliation and peace.

arbilad · Head Chef

Well, I like Wagner's music, even though he was an anti-semite. I most definitely am not an anti-semite. Now, if I knew that the money I spent on music was going towards anti-semite or homosexual causes, then I wouldn't spend my money that way. But Wagner is long dead, so even if he had spent on anti-semite causes it doesn't matter anymore, my money isn't going towards that. But, for instance, I'm not going to buy any music from the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cocobeem wrote:

Sorry, I'm fresh out of "evidence" for Tchaikovsky's gayness.

I remember when they'd play Relax by FGTH at the Stake dances growing up. It was a cool, fun dance song. Now... I can't even listen to it on the radio. It's just... gross.

Ditto.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

What used to be hidden in secret language, is now openly discussed... things are much better now... rolleyes

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Part of the tell-all generation, as Robert Millet calls it.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

rayb wrote:

Doesn't the Old Testament suggests that gays should be killed.

Yes. But we got over it.

Do you think there is a gay gene?

Not one, but likely a combination of genes, plus perhaps some environmental factors. Many times, when you've known a gay man his entire life, and you look back at his boyhood, you think "how could we NOT have know he was gay?" Other times, it is really a complete surprise.

Why are so many who are gay and in the public eye, so talented in music, or art, or theatre?

No idea. But I'm kind of glad they are so talented.

Why are some of his spirit children afflicted with such tough spiritual obstacles? Did they just get the short straw?

In His wisdom, He has allowed (perhaps even allowed certain of His children to choose) certain earthly challenges. It is all part of the test of this mortal existence.

Do you wish we were living the Old Testament laws?

ABSOLUTELY NOT! With my penchant for Sunday afternoon pizza-buying, I would long since be a stoned dead man.

Do you believe as some preachers have suggested that "God hates gays?"

No. But the actions of a lot of members of the church and members of this board sure seem to contain a lot of human hate toward them. IMHO.

Is there a way to live in harmony with such people?

Yeah. We deign to just get over it. We are polite and kind to complete strangers in our ward who break commandments. Why do we think being polite and kind to another of God's children somehow constitutes "approving of sin?" Why do we need to constantly telegraph our disapproval of this particular sin? Those who know us know of our opinions. They'll live their lives as they see fit.

We should just meet people where they are; be nice to them; and live the commandments to the best of our ability. In the end, the only person over whom we have any control is ourself.

Is there any middle ground, or are they just so completely wrong that they should be locked away somewhere on an island somewhere?

Yes. The island is called Manhattan. Just kidding. But it would have the best plays, and every grass hut would be tastefully decorated.

What would you do if you were in charge of reality?

Make sure that every Mormon who made "homo" jokes got an immediate knock in the head with a billyclub.

Does the church have a solution for all these questions?

The same answer as everything: Strive to keep the commandments; and rely upon the Savior's saving grace.

Why is this such a big deal now, but was not generations past?

Homosexuals are much more trying to take part in a society which has long shunted them into the darkest recesses. After a while, people get tired of hiding in the shadows and not participating in society because a certain demographic calls you sinful. Hey, adulterers get to participate in society, so why not gays?

What do the scriptures say about the topic?

Homosexual acts are against the commandments. God cannot abide ANY unclean thing. Like every child of God, they the ability to repent and live a righteous life.

And is there any hope for such people?

Keep the commandments. In this there is safety; in this there is peace.

What should be our stance as faithful LDS?

The same as it should be with ANY human: Strive to keep the commandments in our own life. God didn't say "love one another, unless the other is a gay."

Have you had to deal with this at a family level, with children or siblings?

Yep. No biggie; couldn't imagine my life without them. Wouldn't want to.

Should politicians shun them, in order to stand up for LDS values?

True LDS/Christian values do not need to shun anyone.

Does abuse and violence against the homosexual community happen?

Yes. Why it even happens on this lovely forum.

How can one raise social awareness about such things, without being party to their actions or associated with their other agendae?
By telling people to stop being jerks, and cast the beam out of our own eye, and by recognizing that we all have sins to overcome.

What kinds of doctrines are hard for gay mormons?

Eternal marriage; in the sense of "will I get one, if the best I can do is live a chaste, celibate life in mortality?"

What kinds of comments are inherently offensive or insulting to them?

Somehow implying that their sin is worse than any other sin; or that their very nature is sinful, rather than just their actions.

What things do we do that marginalize them?

"Homo" jokes. Treating them like they are inherently more dangerous to children. Implying that gay sex is more sinful than adultery, because it's "unnatural."

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hoss, I think you are just as out of line for condemning people who express their opinion concerning homosexuality as you imply they are for saying words or puns that you find disagreeable or offensive.

There is really no justification in getting up on a soapbox and calling people to repentance over it, particularly since this thread is trying to talk about how folks react to the situation in a non-theoretical manner.

You've had certain experiences. Others have had others. As the saying goes, YMMV. It does not mean that your reaction / experience is superior than that of others or the reactions / experiences of others are superior to yours.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Make sure that every Mormon who made "homo" jokes got an immediate knock in the head with a billyclub.
You mean jokes like this...

But it would have the best plays, and every grass hut would be tastefully decorated.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Yep, I make and tell homo jokes and jokes about Asians, white guys, women, blacks, jews, hispanics, muslims, Polacks, farmers, Protuguees, bicycle owners, persons with mental handicaps, persons who act like mental handicaps, lawyers (do they have mental handicaps), politicians, liberals, conservatives, southerners, northerners, city folk, country folk, catholics, baptists, athiests, and (heaven forbid) Mormons. Oh I forgot Mexicans. Anyone else I forgot? Oh, yea politically correct folks who think someone might get offended. Seriously, some folks need some Carlos Mencia in their lives.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm grateful for Hoss's comments, even if a few answers were hypocritical. I think it's an important reminder that we all have varying degrees of exposure to the way we treat each other as saints... thanks for taking the time to answer the questions...

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Hoss, thank you for your thoughtful reply, especially this one:

What kinds of comments are inherently offensive or insulting to them?

Somehow implying that their sin is worse than any other sin; or that their very nature is sinful, rather than just their actions.
I didn't find any of your answers hypocritical or out of harmony with the Gospel as I understand it. And I appreciated the humor, as well smile

And it wouldn't kill ya to visit more often!

-- Edited by Roper at 22:18, 2007-06-13

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

http://theguardrail.com/transcript.htm

Dunno if this has been posted elsewhere, but someone sent this link to me...

--Ray

crazymom5 · Senior Member

Speaking of music with an agenda, I'm always appalled when they play "YMCA" at youth dances or even adult dances. Didn't/doesn't anyone pay attention to the lyrics? The only reason it's played is because everyone can get out on the dance floor and do the "Y" "M" "C" "A" with their arms, but if we're going to be concerned about what is played at youth dances because of suggestive lyrics, take this song out of the rotation!

I appreciated Hoss's reply and I also appreciated many of the other replies.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

http://theguardrail.com/transcript.htm

Dunno if this has been posted elsewhere, but someone sent this link to me...

--Ray

Thanks for sharing that Ray. Very good information. I learned a lot from reading it.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

*goes to Google YMCA lyrics*

-- Edited by Euphrasie at 09:54, 2007-06-20

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Okay....so, now I'm just confused.

Is there an alternate version of the lyrics?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I googled the lyrics, too, and found nothing "suggestive" about them. Hang out with the boys? What's wrong with that?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Ray, that was a fine article you found and posted.

Really spoke a lot of truth. And the principles are the same for just about any other sort of problem or sin one tries to tackle.

I've never met a man who successfully hated himself out of homosexuality or compulsive sexuality, never. In fact, the ones who hate themselves the most are universally the ones who are most stuck.
Make the word "man" universal and replace "homosexuality or compulsive sexuality" with anything else, and it and the closing paragraphs and conclusions are universally applicable.

People don't want to hear it, but those that continue in sinful behavior do in fact hate themselves because: 1. They do not have an proper understanding of the Atonement; 2. They have not forgiven themselves and hence feel no one else can really forgive them and thus must look down on and despise them, so inwardly they despise themselves as well.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Cocobeem wrote:

I googled the lyrics, too, and found nothing "suggestive" about them. Hang out with the boys? What's wrong with that?

Well, this kind of displays what I was mentioning earlier about LDS folks kind of being pretty naive when it comes to popular music... Thanks Crazymom, this was actually one of the songs that I was thinking of too, and that always grates on my nerves when I hear it being played at dances, be it youth, YSA, or even Stake "family dances"... I'm thinking "Okay, who vetted the music library selection for the evening?"

It can be easily inferred because at least one of the Village People practices / practiced homosexuality, the song came out in the sex / drugs / disco club era of the mid/late '70's, and the dual meanings of phrases like "have a good time" "you can do whatever you feel"...

And, while it is only anecdotal... check wikipedia

crazymom5 · Senior Member

Thanks Cat for the link. Euph and Coco, you must be too young to remember The Village People, they came from the San Francisco gay community. I remember when the song hit the airwaves and felt very uncomfortable with the lyrics back then, let alone now. I just cringe when it's played at any church activity.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread topic.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think that cringing is a lot of why homosexuality is a problem in the church. I hope you'll take time to read that article, as interesting as it is focused inward, it also says volumes about how we treat and relate to each other. I really liked the discussion of spiritual perfectionism... a trait which is not unique to those with SSA. I agree the article contains a LOT of useful info.

--Ray