Is this an accurate statement?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Is this an accurate statement?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Just because you quit doesn't mean that you are no longer under obligation to the convenants you have made. There are always consequences. Though I have never understood those who have no interest in the church and live however they want not wanting to remove their names. If someone is sealed in the temple to their spouse and they later ask to have their names removed from church records are they no longer under covenant? I don't think so. Of course this is only my opinion. I'm basically too lazy to go find something by a general authority. LOL!!

Organist · Senior Member

This statement brings to mind 2 Nephi 31:14 "But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me."

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I understood that when you have your name removed from the records that it IS an excommunication. It just isn't done through a disciplinary council the same way.

arbilad · Head Chef

This is my opinion, but I don't think that asking to have your name removed from the records of the church is a step in the repentance process. I think it's more a symbol of rebellion against God. Excommunication can be a step in the repentance process, but in that case it's imposed as a punishment that will hopefully eventually bring you back. I don't know of anyone offhand who voluntarily left the church (that is, they weren't facing a disciplinary council) and then later came back. I do know of excommunicated people who have come back.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

So what if it isn't a step in the repentance process? Either way, they are no longer members of the church, and as such, are not under covenantal obligations.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It is excommunication to have your records removed from the church. Back in the 70s there was a church wide effort to purge names from the records, and I had a relation who was secretly distraught over the fact that although he refused to come to church or be active, had his name purged...

I think his wife had died by then, and they had been sealed, and was at a loss due to the situation. After he died, my father had to get special permission to have them sealed again... because he was considered to be excommunicated.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, I guess what we need is authoritative clarification as to whether the two are equated or not.

Bok has addressed the core of my question, though not provided any enlightenment to me as to understanding it. Are the covenants one enters into with The Lord contingent upon one being a member of the Church? I mean, clearly if one is no longer a member of the Church, one most likely will not see the need to or have desire to keep any covenants one may have made, but the only covenant that I see as having direct correlation to membership is baptism. The other covenants are kind of along the lines of commandments, and everyone is subject to the commandments...

I'm thinking along the lines of D&C 84:33-42 , D&C 82:21 , Alma 31:8-11 , Alma 24:30 , Ezekial 33:17-19 , and Deuteronomy 29.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

On a related note, and not going into too much detail here, I have an extended family member (endowed and sealed) that committed some pretty grievous sins. This person fully expected to be excommunicated. After a disciplinary council, this person was surprised at the outcome and related to me that excommunications are becoming rarer because those who are exed don't come back--the miracle of forgiveness happens much better with other disciplinary actions.

That's just one experience from one perspective. Anyone in current leadership care to contribute? Mahonri?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, is it fair to say that neither those who are excommunicated nor those who ask to have their names removed from the membership roles are given clemency from breaking the covenants they have entered into? That maybe the individual just feels they are because they broke the covenant and have taken or been subject to "official" action to distance themselves from The Lord and the Church? Are those who ask to have their names removed from the membership roles excommunicated? If so, what is the stated reason, apostasy? I'm still not clear on that.

In either case, the individual has to show they are willing to live up to the gospel commandments and covenants and have repented sufficiently before they can be reinstated / rebaptised / have the blessings restored. I think the concept of "blessings restored" is quite telling. It indicates that to me that The Lord has not broken the covenant, but is simply withholding the promises until the individual proves they will keep their side. It isn't a fresh start so to speak. It is a picking up where left off.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, and I'm just thinking out loud.

arbilad · Head Chef

I look at it this way; by asking to have your name removed, you are basically breaking your covenants with that action. You are saying that you will not follow the covenants anymore. When you make the covenants, there is no escape clause or sunset provision. So you suffer the consequences for deciding not to follow the covenants that you previously promised to follow. A person gets greater light and knowledge by making and keeping covenants. You are held accountable for that. You are held to a higher level of responsibility than someone who never knew those things in the first place. For instance, who do you think is more at fault: someone who lived 100 years ago and took up smoking when it was still not proven that it caused health problems, or someone who takes it up now when there is voluminous evidence that smoking causes health problems?

Fregramis · Senior Member

D&C 54:4-6

"4 And as the covenant which they made unto me has been broken, even so it has become void and of none effect.

5 And wo to him by whom this offense cometh, for it had been better for him that he had been drowned in the depth of the sea.

6 But blessed are they who have kept the covenant and observed the commandment, for they shall obtain mercy. "

I also recall a certain warning that Satan gives to covenant makers who choose to break those covenants.

I don't think ridding oneself of covenant obligations is liberation whatsoever. However, if allowing oneself to come under the power of Satan is more genuine than livng a lie as a rebellious Church member, be genuine. Humility and repentance seem like the better option in the eternal perspective, but for now I guess being true to one's self is the more "respectable" alternative.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

It's like saying, "Now that I've broken my promise, I don't have to keep it anymore."

I've also been under the impression that excommunications are more and more rare. I heard a high counsellor say once, "You hardly ever get ex'd for adultery anymore. You practically have to murder someone nowadays." He went on to be SP.

I know someone who in essence "asked" to be ex'd during his court for adultery. Then, under the delusion he was off some spiritual hook, went on to be immoral with many (well into the double digits) women before finally "getting sincere" and being rebaptized. The whole plot was a joke. I think he forgot the fact that God is not mocked.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Ray puts his fingers in his ears and starts singing to himself a bit too loudly, "La-la-la-la-La! I can't hear you! La-la-la!!"

--Ray

PS> Coco, where the heck do you hang out? In Apostatesville?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Apostatesville? No way! That place gives me the creeps. **shiver**

ray- Are you saying "la-la-la" to me? Come on, don't you know anyone like this?

dilbert · Senior Member

Having your name removed is not the same thing as being excommunicated, although they both result in the termination of your membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So for practical purposes, I'm not sure the distinction is significant.

I think the biggest difference is that the church initiates excommunication while the individual initiates name removal. Excommunication is the result of serious sin while name removal generally just means the person no longer wants to be a member of the LDS church. If a person has committed a serious sin and wants to have their name removed to avoid facing a disciplinary council, the bishop or stake president waits to process the name removal request until a council can be convened. That is done because if that person later wants back in to the church, that will have to be decided by another disciplinary council. If they were being readmitted after name removal, there wouldn't be a council and there wouldn't be a need to determine repentance for the sin that let to excommunication (although some determination would have to be made to be sure the person understood about covenants, and an appeal would be made to the first presidency as Mahonri said). So the process is different between the two, and probably the attitude and feelings of the person involved are different as well.

On the question of church discipline, my understanding agrees with what has been said that in general disfellowshipment is preferred these days in a lot of cases where excommunication would have been decided 20-30 years ago. The guidelines lean more that direction except for the more extreme cases (like leaders committing adultery, repeat offenders, or people that aren't being helped by being disfellowshipped). But it is important to understand that in every case the council tries to find out what the Lord wants done in that specific case, so two people with seemingly very similar circumstances can receive different levels of discipline based on the wisdom of the Lord.

Pt314 · Senior Member

It's up to the Lord to decide what to do with people who ask to have their names removed.

On my mission I did a lot of visiting less active members. There was this one man who had been attending another church for over 10 years before he demanded his name be removed so he would be left alone.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

This brings up another question. I have seen many times where inactive members want no contact from the church and have gone on and joined another religion. They get angry when contacted by members. I have asked why doesn't the Bishop contact them to see if they want to remove their names from the records of the church and I always get these cold stares from folks when I ask this. I've been told that we don't want to push them away and its like some folks want to keep the process a secret so they stay on the records and then someone new takes over, home teachers are assigned, and the ugliness begins once again as a couple poor elders or even worse an elder and his aaronic priesthood companion get yelled at. Is it standard practice to try and hide this option from the dissafected who don't want anything to do with the church. I hate to sound callous but does someone who was baptized when they were nine and never really was active who now is married and has their own faith that doesn't want any contact not need to be asked the obvious?

dilbert · Senior Member

Really? Interesting. I guess I missed that memo, and I no longer have a calling that comes with the CHI, so I haven't had a chance to read the new edition (not that I'm complaining about that, mind you wink

).

So does that mean that if someone has had their name removed and later wants to be readmitted to the church that the bishop has to investigate to determine whether a council needs to be held before rebaptism? Based on my understanding of the importance of a disciplinary council in the repentence process (for serious sins), if that is not the case it would seem that a person could cheat themselves out of the peace that comes with forgiveness from God if they worked the system just right.

-- Edited by dilbert at 10:03, 2007-05-31