INVASION of the Manly Snatchers!!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

INVASION of the Manly Snatchers!!

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'd be sort of interested in a definition of that too...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Oh yeah, and this thread is NOT a trap... I'm genuinely interested in what you more manly members of the church who share your wisdom here regularly think makes a man...

--Ray

nitasmile · Senior Member

Pink shirts or pink ties?

Metrosexual??

I once read how Christ was a good blend of male and female attributes, maybe this is what you mean?

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Sorry, don't get it Ray?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Could it be that some men cry in public?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Who cares?

I don't say that to trivialize the issue or Ray's question. Really, though, who is it that cares about a definition of "feminized manhood" or even "manhood"?

I'm much more interested in discipleship, and if the world characterizes devotion to those principles as feminine, then again, who cares?

For myself, I find it much more enjoyable to facilitate the learning of 20 elementary kids than I ever did in my annual M-9 and M-16 qualifications in the military. Although, for some twisted reason, I sometimes miss that satisfying feeling of putting all my rounds in a tight center-of-mass grouping on the silhouette. FWIW.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

That's part of the reason why I ask the question. I feel like there's a tendency to conjure up fantasies about what "real men" are like, and then blame all of society's problems on the fact that these fantasy men don't really exist. Hence I ask the question. What is meant by feminized men? I've heard it used as an excuse or a fear that we have all these folk ruining boys, etc... being raised in our society, and I want to know what is being ruined? What exactly is missing and what needs to be fixed?

Is it just a general contempt for all things male, or is it a backlash from a loss of male domination in society as a whole? Are there good things about the change as well as bad?

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I have some ideas about this question, but the little cocokids and I are going up the canyon for lunch now.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
Hence I ask the question. What is meant by feminized men? I've heard it used as an excuse or a fear that we have all these folk ruining boys, etc... being raised in our society, and I want to know what is being ruined? What exactly is missing and what needs to be fixed?

I'll share some of my observations and conclusions from the classroom (and there are emerging studies that conclude the same thing.)

Most female teachers don't define typical "girl" behavior as disruptive to the learning environment. Female teachers typically define behaviors, such as chatting and giggling, as either non-disruptive or mildly disruptive. Female teachers usually do not redirect such behavior.

Most female teachers define typical "boy" behavior as severly disruptive to the learning environment. Female teachers typically define behaviors, such as shifting around in one's seat or wiggling, as disruptive or severly disruptive. Female teachers frequently redirect such behavior and isolate male students for repeated "offenses."

Since the vast majority of elementary school teachers are female, the net result is a "feminization" of acceptable classroom behavior.

I admit that I'm just the opposite: The chatter about who likes who and what clothes are fashionable and the associated giggles drive me nuts. To me, those behaviors are more disruptive than a boy who needs to stand up and stretch for a minute or bounces his leg with incessant energy. I try my best to be fair, but my honest evaluation of my own practice tells me that I'm probably more lenient with boys.

A recent event shocked me. Two white female colleauges were teaching a combined-class science lesson on rocks and soil. When I went to their class for a brief observation, I noticed that six black male students had been isolated for behavior--they were completely disengaged from learning. Now I refuse to believe that six black males were causing all the disruption in the class. And I wonder why neither teacher redirected the little white and hispanic girls, who were off-task and giggling about an alleged playground romance.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Sensative New Age Guys:

Do you have more facial products than your wife?
Do you like movies staring Meg Ryan?
Do you know who Mr. Darcey is?
Do you actually take the time to make sure your clothes don't clash.
Do you get your hair cut at a salon or a barber shop?
Did you actually watch Love Story and cry at the end?
Do your blue jeans have to be ironed and carry a well known brand label?
Is your car a shade of lavender?
Do you like watching the LPGA or the WNBA?
Were you secrety jealous of the Prom Queen in highschool?
When your T Shirts get holes in them, do you throw them away because they are ruined?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

But does it matter in the long run? My first inclination would be that the girls are getting the short end of the discipline stick... they're not being properly trained to respect adults or authority figures and they're the ones suffering...

Does being disciplined by women then ruin a man? Btw, I see a lot of mothers in the church who are tough on their sons. I think the only difference is that they also tend to all have fathers... but if these fathers are all feminized, as some on this board have suggested, I guess that doesn't matter much.

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 11:01, 2007-05-16

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Do you have more facial products than your wife?

Since I don't shave, the only thing I have is the soap with which I wash the rest of my body.

Do you like movies staring Meg Ryan?

Only Courage Under Fire. Come on, Meg Ryan with an M-16--who wouldn't like that?

Do you know who Mr. Darcey is?

Not a clue. eta: Wait, I misread it. I thought it was Dr. Darcey. Mr. Darcey, from Pride and Prejudice, is a manly man, and I like him. Mr. Wickham was slime.

Do you actually take the time to make sure your clothes don't clash.

Yeah, but just so my students won't laugh at me. Khakis go with everything, btw.

Do you get your hair cut at a salon or a barber shop?

Barber shop! The one where the 60-year-old barber shaves the back of my neck with a straight razor and massages my scalp, neck, and shoulders at the end. And it still only costs 10 bucks, but I give him 15 and pray that he'll stay in business for the rest of my life.

Did you actually watch Love Story and cry at the end?

Never seen it.

Do your blue jeans have to be ironed and carry a well known brand label?

Is "Sam's Club" a well known brand label?

Is your car a shade of lavender?

Nope. But our living room is. And our sofas are purple. Guess what Sister Roper's favorite color is.

Do you like watching the LPGA or the WNBA?

Don't have a TV. And if we did, the only sport I would watch is the tour de France and maybe motorcyle racing.

Were you secrety jealous of the Prom Queen in highschool?

I dated the prom queen once. Worst date I ever had.

When your T Shirts get holes in them, do you throw them away because they are ruined?

Hell no! That's over half my wardrobe!

-- Edited by Roper at 11:28, 2007-05-16

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

rayb wrote:

Um. So Val has made multiple references to the new 'feminized' man. I'm curious what this means, and what are the features of the feminized man.

Well, I'll take a stab at it (had to conjure up a manly image, there, he, he).

A manly man is one who intelligently determines his sincere beliefs, and stands up for them if necessary.

He defines the standards in his home and takes steps to see that he and his family strive to attain said standards.

He has the ability to let things flow on past when appropriate, or be in someones' face, when appropriate.

I'm sure I'll think of more later.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

A manly man knows when it is appropriate to play "pull my finger" with the kids and when it is not...

A feminized man would not even know how to play it...

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

And Cat, that really does sum the whole thing up in a bizarre, yet succinct, yet correct way. Yaaaaaay you!

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

hey Roper... ya' made me laugh reall good... but now my lunch is over... Thanks for the chuckle!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Cat: Brilliant. :)

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

And, the natural man will play the game even when it not a kosher moment...

His are the kids who will hold signs up in the car -- as other cars pass on the freeway -- that read "Help! Daddy farted and we can't get out!"

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Cat: I'll look for your car on the freeway... :)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

A real man does not compromise principles.

A real man is not desperate.

A real man leads. As opposed to drives.

A real man lives his own life and is not easily swayed by the opinions of others.

A real man does not exaggerrate his abilities.

A real man is not self-absorbed.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

A real man is not defined by anyone other than other real men.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

That brings up the very question I was wondering about.

So, likewise, real women are only defined by other real women. Good to know.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

No, real women are defined by Hollywood and international fashion designers.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

A real man knows when to shut his mouth.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

A real man doesn't ask for directions because he knows how to read a map!

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:

A real man knows when to shut his mouth.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

{warning... lightening rod alert... you others who genetically carry two distinct gender chromosones in your genetic makeup may want to step away from me for a moment...

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The natural woman feels it her God-given obligation to shut any man's (be he manly, feminized, real, or natural) mouth.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

A real man shuts his own mouth (see roper example

).

A wanne be man must have his mouth shut for him on occasion. Sometimes we of the twin chromosomes just can't take it anymore.

New one-

A real man knows when his wife is faking it.

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 11:14, 2007-05-18

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

The natural woman knoweth not HOW to shut her mouth, and never has from the beginning and never shall throughout eternity.

A real man can take his lumps if he chooses not to shut his own mouth.

Only a feminized man would let the natural woman shut his mouth for him.

New one -

A real man knows how to tell his wife the meal was not one of her culinary signature dishes and get her laughing at the same time...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Meanwhile back in TOPICSVILLE, Ray wonders what the heck a "feminized" man really is, and if his question will ever be answered...

rolleyes

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

A real man doesn't wonder if he's feminized or not.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Okay, back on topic... cry

Well, here are some opinions of others:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/manion/manion69.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/icsd/ICSD55.html

http://www.albany.edu/ws/journal/journal_05/takizawa3.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/934416/posts

http://davideigen.com/

On another site I found via the search "feminized man" which yielded a list of footnotes to some other work, I did find some interesting comments, such as :
The distinction between effeminacy and feminization is an important one. Effeminacy is a psychological disorder involving conflicts over sexual identity. The effeminate man usually does not want to be a man, or is afraid that he cannot successfully be part of a group of men. Effeminacy usually stems from experiences in early childhood, and is more often tied to such family disorders as an absent parent, a domineering or over-protective mother, or a hostile or weak father. It may also at times be connected to some hormonal defect during the early developmental process. Therefore, effeminacy is deeply rooted in the personality, and is difficult to change totally.
On the other hand, feminization is not a psychological disorder and need not involve conflicts over sexual identity. It is a cultural pattern passed on to men leading them to take a "feminized" approach to emotions, personal relations, and values. This cultural pattern is passed on through the media, the school system, and the family, and has its greatest impact in childhood and adolescence. Unlike effeminacy, feminization is not difficult to change. It mainly requires exposure to a new cultural pattern-new models, a new social environment, a new set of values.This turned out to be footnote 10 to Chapter 23 of a book called Man and Woman in Christ by one Stephen B. Clark

Anyway, not endorsing any of the views presented, but they seem to be varied.

My own personal feeling is that the term and concept "feminized man" is a subset of "natural man", as much so as the "macho man" concept is. Any attribute one incorporates or models after that makes us less like the way our Father is, is one of a natural man, or enemy to God. For, afterall, isn't the Savior also known as The Son of Man. Therefore, His (and our) Father is Man.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I think things can get screwed up when the wife runs things and the husband lets her or more so, is incapable of doing anything about it.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Interesting comment.

In our culture, how exactly should / can a husband do something about it when the wife takes charge (in any aspect of the home / family / relationship) unilaterally? The culture tells the woman that she needs to be strong, and if the man tries to lead, he is being domineering, not trusting her, controlling, unsupportive, criticizing, and just about any other unsavory thing that can be thought of to call someone or imply they are.

So, for the man, it can very much be a catch twenty-two, between rock and hard place, no-win situation.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

So let me get this straight... Coco, a real man doesn't do any sort of internal self-reflection? Doesn't probe the origins of his motives and thought processes? Or maybe he just doesn't talk about it.

Perhaps that's the feminized man... a man who talks about his feelings, whereas the traditional role of men used to be to say nothing of feelings, while women ruled supreme in the kingdom of feelings...

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Internal self-reflection. Okay, my headbanger comment was a bit of a joke. But also some truth to it, too. Just in the sense that a real man knows who he is. Of course, this applies to real women and self-esteem or self-worth in general and also the wonderful Confidence thread you started.

Just personally, overanalysis is not a big plus for me in a man. I don't "need" that, since I look at my overanalysis of things as a weakness that I'm trying to get over. It leads me into divers paths where I get lost. However, the talking part I think is very good. If I could limit my analyses to conversations with MrCoco, this has the possibility of being productive. Internal, solitary self-analysis not so much. But that's just me and what works/doesn't work for me that I've been able to put my finger on.

I think women actually are refreshed by men's perspectives (which women sometimes call simplistic but may secretly with their own minds would just SLOW DOWN sometimes). Why else are women asking men, "What are you thinking about?"

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Men are not simplistic in their perspectives / emotions / thoughts (one of the great and never ending myths perpetuated by those of the twin chromosonal gender). We are generally just far better at compartmentalizing them. There is nothing about inherent difference in brain processing speed involved. It is simply a kind of discipline that most women are never culturally forced to cultivate effectively as they grow from being a wee child...

Anyway, that is part of why men can get very defensive about even the perception of being vulnerable in anything and why they can be terribly hurt by women if women take lightly their "soft under-belly". And, it is also part of the reason men often have difficulty relating to what seems to be the confusion of the female mind and way of thinking.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 14:41, 2007-05-18

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I've found him, the perfect feminized man at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE-8csu7-bk

arbilad · Head Chef

I just wanted to test out the ability to embed youtube videos in posts. If anyone is offended by the video, I'll remove it.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

That was disturbing... on a couple levels.

First, it was disturbingly funny

But it's mostly disturbing because it is not fair since I haven't figured out how to embed a simple jpeg to a post properly...

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I don't always go this section of the forum, so I have missed this.

What makes a manly man...we're men in tights! Sorry, couldn't resist.

How I view a real man:

1. You do what is right, especially when no one will know and no one is watching.
2. You obey God.
3. You sacrifice your wants and desires for the benefit of your family. I honestly think that many women do not comprehend what most men give up so that their families have what they want and need. For example: doing a job you don't like to earn more to ensure a home and food, etc. or giving up working on building up a 1980 6.6 Trans AM to afford the mini-van payment, etc., etc., etc.
4. Keeping your temple covenants.
5. Never compromising what is right.
6. Doing things you dislike for your wife and kids because they like them, and not complaining about it in front of them (I still need work in this area).
7. Not allowing yourself to burn out, even though you have, because you accept your responsibility and accountability.
8. Telling your wife no or it's not going to happen or that she is out of line. Many men are afraid of confronting their wives, they don't want the associated problems. At some points this has been very hard, but as head of the home/patriarch, priesthood holder (all done in righteousness and submissiveness to the Lord) it is my duty. Ultimately as husband and father, I am accountable for the wife and children as well as myself. I definitely believe that counsel should be taken with the wife, but I bear the ultimate responsibility. Where much is given, much is required.
9. You make the hard and tough decisions.
10. You face the danger to protect and defend the family.
11. You do the gross and nasty jobs, and killing spiders and bugs.
12. You teach your boys these very things, whether they want to or not.
13. You set a good example, temporally and spiritually.
14. You honor and use your priesthood.
15. You take one for the team (family) when you need to.
16. Don't be afraid to say no, even at Church when it is too much, God comes first, then wife, then kids, then Church.
17. You have family home evening, family prayer/scriptures, prayer with your wife. If none of them want to do it, then you do it alone if need be.
18. You are honest and you show it.
19. You keep a civil tongue ( a hard one, especially fixing things and working on the car).
20. You are armed and prepared. (If you disagree, up to you, but as a husband and father, it is my God-given duty to provide, defend family, life, country, church, freedom, liberty, etc. You cannot do this unless properly prepared to do so.)
21. Respect your wife and children and love them, even when frustrated.
22. Service.
23. Never apologize for saying or doing what is right, if someone is offended because of it, tough on them.

Mission statement of the Aaronic Priesthood:

Become converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ and live its teachings.

Serve faithfully in priesthood callings, and fulfill the responsibilities of priesthood offices.

Give meaningful service.

Prepare and live worthily to receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and temple ordinances.

Prepare to serve an honorable full-time mission.

Obtain as much education as possible.

Prepare to become a worthy husband and father.

Give proper respect to women, girls, and children.

There are others, but you get the point. If you are afraid to get dirty, more worried about pretty hair and clothes, are prissy, waffle on what is right, run for cover or abandon family when things are tough, seek comfort elsewhere when ignored at home, won't take on a challenge, don't learn to be independent, think guns are scary, etc., then you should have your man card revoked.

I am not yet the paragon of all this, but am working on it. If one has achieved all this, then they are well on their way to godhood.

-- Edited by Valhalla at 08:43, 2007-05-21

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Well said Val.

It ain't easy being a manly man, and though most of us fall short of the tall order at various occasions with respect to what it means at Church, we still try and the efforts and sacrifices are often underappreciated and unacknowledged.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Great comments Val. I totally agree... I really like the suggestion that a man sometimes has to take the lead and disagree with the wife... though I don't relish those moments. :)

Though my original question was about a feminized man--something you've complained of members being... Is it the opposite of these or could you be more specific?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Cat Herder wrote:

Men are not simplistic in their perspectives / emotions / thoughts (one of the great and never ending myths perpetuated by those of the twin chromosonal gender). We are generally just far better at compartmentalizing them. There is nothing about inherent difference in brain processing speed involved. It is simply a kind of discipline that most women are never culturally forced to cultivate effectively as they grow from being a wee child...

Anyway, that is part of why men can get very defensive about even the perception of being vulnerable in anything and why they can be terribly hurt by women if women take lightly their "soft under-belly". And, it is also part of the reason men often have difficulty relating to what seems to be the confusion of the female mind and way of thinking.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 14:41, 2007-05-18

Okay, the first paragraph. I'm not saying men are more simple-minded than women. I really hope they aren't. Obviously this is an individual matter, not a widespread gender matter. People are found on different ends of the bell curve, male or female. In any given marriage, one spouse will have a quicker wit, a stonger perception, etc. The last sentence - I don't have any idea what you're trying to say here.

Second paragraph. I'm not quite following what you're trying to say here either. Could you rephrase? Without using the "soft under-belly" metaphor? (Gross.) You think men are more vulnerable? Or more defensive? Or...??

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I liked Val's comments, too. Telling the wife she's out of line is definitely something that must be done. If she's out of line, that is. I'd like to hear if ray has a specific story of when this "went bad."

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

rayb wrote:
Great comments Val. I totally agree... I really like the suggestion that a man sometimes has to take the lead and disagree with the wife... though I don't relish those moments. :)

Though my original question was about a feminized man--something you've complained of members being... Is it the opposite of these or could you be more specific?

I dislike having to take the lead like that because it means we are not in harmony, and like it or not, many women tend to take things far to personally or will be angry about it for a while or well, no biggrin

But being a man means saying "oh well", if that is that way you want to handle it, fine, but, this is the decision.

I can tell you that at times my wife thinks I am mean and/or a chauvinist for some of these things and my views, but that is okay, I bear that responsibility, not her. I have to answer to God ultimately, not her, for how I managed my stewardship and took care of my family. I am a firm believer in that men should be men and women should be women, not this idiotic portrayl of women that Hollyweird gives us like these ultra-tough women kicking butt in police shows. Unrealistic, doesn't happen, and most police women don't look that good. Feminine is beautiful, the grunge and grime and grit of the realworld takes away and destroys that.

As to what a feminized man is, he is the opposite of what I stated in the lists above, but not necessarily feminized. I have yet to achieve all that, have a long way to go, but I believe in those things and am trying to achieve them through God's help, 99.9999% Him, .00001% me, I mean that seriously.

I see the feminization/sissification of men in those who refuse to lead their homes in righteousness, won't discipline their children, won't sacrifice for their families, believe in political correctness, go along with the men are dopes thing in movies and commercials, those who extol women and debase are self-depricating towards themselves, those men who are more concerned with fancy clothes and primping, who are afraid to get dirty, who are afraid or unwilling to make a stand, etc.

Frankly, I think there is a lot of it in the church, which I find most disturbing. I see so much of the whole thing of placing women on a pedestal, saying they are full of virtue and men are slackers. Yet, women make mistakes, are not always right, are not better than men. Men and women were made to complement each other, a yin and yang sort of idea. It is a partnership with the man at the lead. I severely dislike the mother's day talks about Adam being clueless and Eve running directing things, quite frankly, there is no support for it, in fact, I think it was quite different and the scriptures and temple ceremony bear that out. I can elaborate if so desired with the exceptions of the temple content.

There is a distinct order to things and the reason I feel what I said makes a man a man is that men are the ones that can become a god. We have to learn these responsibilities in order to be like God, to do as he does when we have our own thrones and powers. The only thing that restrains God and makes Him who He is is that he has mastered those things. This is a learning ground and if we cannot do as we need to place our own houses in order, we cannot qualify for more, hence the parable of the talents.

You don't have to be some physically tough guy with lots of muscles, I think the vast majority of being a man is simply character and having the image of Christ in our countenances.

-- Edited by Valhalla at 11:50, 2007-05-21

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Val: Your reply is very thoughtful. Thanks for giving it. :)

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"...men are the ones that can become a god."

Not trying to nitpick, but "we" achieve this together or it is not achieved.