Fast offerings and recipients, a question

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Fast offerings and recipients, a question

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

The Bishop is the steward who determines how to utilize the fast offerings within the ward.

Saying so in all kindness, you could benefit from working on a bit of an attitude adjustment, Val.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Oh, dude. This is one of those topics... I swear, it can really get to ya!! I have no idea why a certain "needs" high-speed internet. Or a new car. Or why the husband can't freakin' work! What I do know is that they hop from ward to ward... 9 kids... Oh, brother.

I used to work in the Church Finance Dept. at Zions Bank and saw thousands of Church cut checks daily and had to enter where they were from, what they were for, etc. Yes, there is a HUGE amount of counselling going on. I don't really understand it either. Maybe there are psychologists that receive a salary from the Church and all the Church psychos go to them for free...?? Just a joke, for all you psychos out there. :kiss:

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I understand that Cat, and I would in no way think of telling him otherwise. But as to the attitude, I pay my offerings thinking I will be helping people in church and I see a large chunk going to those who don't even bother showing up to church. In fact many expect help and get angry for not getting what they want.

I am just wondering what guidelines there are. Excess funds go to units outside of your own when there is a surplus, and I imagine there is a lot of need, so I just don't understand paying someone's gas bill when they have never been at church.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

May be worth asking your bishop for some mentoring time to help you understand better.

There are a lot of active members of the church who are embarrased to ask for help. Frankly, there is a certain stigma in our LDS sub culture about asking for help from the Church. There is also the feeling that some folks who need help get that somehow they are not as good of members as others if they need assistance in anything.

That is wrong.

My Dad was a Bishop. He was also in the Stake Presidency. And for many, many years, he was the multi-regional welfare agent. His responsibility included training local leaders in how the Church's welfare program really is supposed to work.

We have been on both sides of it, personally, giving and recieving assistance. Several years ago, I was forced by my employer to go on unpaid FMLA for over a month due to a back injury. During this time, our Bishop offered to help us with some food from the Bishop' storehouse. Can you imagine how hard it was to accept assistance based on my experience with my Dad? We were already receiving some help from family. Anyway, because of our proximity to the storehouse, it fell on my wife to go pick the food up. Not understanding the process, she called the RS President, and the RS President just really berated her to the point she was in tears. I was ready to get on the phone to the Bishop and to her and retaliate, but luckily within an hour, this sister called back and humbly apologized. But, from that time on until the time that family moved from the ward, it really did color my opinion of how I viewed this very well to do family and their understanding of those that are in need.

I have come to the understanding that in a very real sense, we are all beggars before The Lord. It is not our place to withhold from those in need if we have the means to assist them, regardless of their motives or what got them to that situation. That is why, in The Lord's wisdom, such decisions are left to the discretion and discernment of the Bishop. Rarely is assistance provided where the Bishop does not ask that the recipients do something in return for it.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I have actually encouraged some to go and seek help. Crap happens to us all. Since I drive by the storehouse, I sometimes pick up orders for people as we live far from town. I have also worked quite frequently filling orders at the storehouse.

I am all for helping those that attend, just wonder about for helping inactives who do nothing at all. Just something that bothers me.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I have been a financial auditor for the Stake for almost 10 years. I can tell you a little about fast offerings. The Bishop has complete discretion on how they are used in conjuntion with the spirit but there are specific rules. The Bishop must complete a needs and resource analysis form prior to giving fast offering assistance. Also, all expenditures of fast offering funds must have the purpose and the last name of the person recieving fast offering assistance. There is a code also designating what it is for. If something looks funky or out of wack, a good auditor will ask. The stake president also gets the information. So there are multiple authorities monitoring the situation. If they all feel the expenditures meet the requirements as set for by the church, then they are not questioned. I have seen fast offerings used to pay for many things including a divorce attourney for a sister in one ward who was fighting to keep custody of her children. I have seen several occassions where counselling was paid for. The list of church approved mental health professionals may be small and insurance may not cover it. We have had folks that were abused and even molested in our ward and I would hate to see them languish without help and often an outside counselling service will not help from a gospel perspective. Imagine someone battling severe depression that is told that they feel that way because they are attending a male dominated, racist, homophobic religion run by uncaring men who want to enslave their families. Some counselling will actually tell a woman that.

When you pay your fast offering you are giving the money to help someone who the bishop feels needs the assistance. If you have sustained the Bishop and have a testimony that he is the one who the Lord has chosen, then you should be able to let him use the funds as he feels directed by the Lord. The checks are in place to help catch any abuse. Also, if the Bishop or his immediate family members recieve Fast Offering Assistance, this must be approved in writing by the Stake President, another check on they system. Also, there should be supporting documentation such as bills, invoices, reciepts, to back it up.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

You're right, sales. It's one of those things the adversary can nail me with and poof! There goes a whole morning fretting over something that really has nothing to do with me.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It is extremely difficult not to think of your fellow ward members differently (both positively or negatively) when you know what they're doing in terms of their private donations. I've been a financial clerk once... it colored the way I saw people. I prefer that such things are private from me, and can sympathize with your frustrations, but I would suggest you talk with your bishop in specific detail if you feel things are inconsistent. It is possible to talk about these things in perfect respect.

I think that ultimately it's up to the Bishop's discretion. He no doubts makes an accounting to the Stake as well. All these cases would be discussed and I have no doubt that it is a matter of serious prayer.

--Ray

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

Valhalla wrote:
Lately, I have been getting some very large checks to LDS family services for "counseling". I don't see how this falls under a legitimate "need."

I just find it frustrating when I am pretty sure there are people in need with medical issues, or housing, etc., who are active members. How does this work?

I would suggest you ponder for a moment, the concept that counseling may, in certain circumstances, indeed be a legitimate medical need. Surely it is not a need for many of the people who are in counseling, but perhaps it's possible for some?

It's kind of hard to accept, especially for those of us blessed enough to not have the faintest clue what a severe mental illness is like, or how it should be treated. It gets a bit easier to understand if you look into the recent research about how young brains of traumatized kids develop and work differently than a normal brain.

Consider a poorly set broken leg. You got it from trying to set it yourself instead of going to see a doctor. You have a visible limp. It hurts. It interferes /w your sleep and your ability to hold down any kind of job involving sitting, standing, lifting, or even moving around. You struggle and often fail to have normal intimate interactions with your spouse because of the pain.

Would you consider getting your leg properly set, a legitimate medical need? Something the Bishop could shake loose a few thousand bucks of fast offering money for, should you be in need?

If you do, then what do you have against some counseling for the resolution of serious trauma, the symptoms of which are every bit as real as the broken leg?

HSR

-- Edited by Homestar Runner at 14:15, 2007-05-14

-- Edited by Homestar Runner at 14:20, 2007-05-14

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think Val's concern is why the church is paying for it. I don't think he's questioning the value of the service. I mean, do you expect the church to pick up your medical expenses?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

I think Val's concern is why the church is paying for it. I don't think he's questioning the value of the service. I mean, do you expect the church to pick up your medical expenses?

Fast offerings can be and are used for medical expenses in addition to rent, utilities, gas, car payment, etc.

It is important to remember that a members donations are between them and the Lord which can involve the Bishop at tithing settlement. It is important to realize that what you think a person makes or there financial situation may in fact be different that what they actually make. Also, what the contribute via tithing and fast offerings may be different than what you would pay in their situation. Some people pay more than 10% of their tithing. Some people actually make less than some people would assume. People who know my family has a business assume that we have a lot of money. Anyone who has ever run their own business knows that isn't neccisarilly the case. I have seen people's tithing slips in the course of my and been shocked at how much some people donate and how little other donate because I assumed a person made more or less money. How stupid of me when I caught myself thinking that. Now I try not to pay attention to the name if it is someone I know and just do the job. Everybody's situation is different and it is between them and the Lord.

dilbert · Senior Member

I think the reason that the church pays for counseling so much is that it is expensive and frequently it is not covered by health insurance (or at least counseling with LDS Family Services). So the reality is that if a person needs counseling, that will often place a big financial burden on them and put them in a situation where they need assistance.

If a person went to counseling once a week at $100 a visit, that would be $400 per month. The bishop could pay that bill or he could provide $400 worth of groceries so that the person would have the money to pay their counseling bill. Would it make any difference how you felt about the assistance if he did one or the other? Because it my mind that would be a wash. The issue is that the expenses exceed the income, rather than "should the church be paying for this or that." (Of course this is all under the principle that welfare is not to be used to maintain a lifestyle.)

On the question of assisting people who are not active in the church, it is important to note that church attendance is not listed in the handbook as a requirement for assistance. Sure, you and I would both like to see someone receiving assistance at least make the effort to show up to church. That would definitely be preferable. But often things are not as simple as they seem, and often we think, "If that was me, I would be doing X, Y, and Z" when in reality if we found ourselves in the situation of that person (including all of the baggage that some people carry), we would act differently than we think we would.

There has to be wisdom in administering the welfare program. The last thing a bishop wants to do is create or enable a dependency. And maybe Valhalla's bishop has made some mistakes in how he has run the program. I don't know about that. But if he approved those payments, then he had a reason why he thought that was the right thing to do.

I think the suggestion above about discussing this with your bishop is a very good idea. If I were Valhalla and were feeling what he is feeling, I would schedule an appointment with the bishop and tell him that while I want to support him and fulfill my calling, I am struggling with some of the things the fast offering money is paying for. I don't need you to justify these decisions to me, but my heart is not in the right place and I need help with that. If your bishop is mediocre or better, I bet that discussion would do a lot of good. And by the way, Valhalla, you are not the first person who has wondered about some details of what assistance is given. That is why I think talking to your bishop would be helpful.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Valhalla wrote:

Lately, I have been getting some very large checks to LDS family services for "counseling".

I just did a huge check for utilities for someone I have never seen at church. Or for rent, or food orders, etc. for people I know to be inactive, don't want to come to church, never participate, etc.

I can respect some of your concerns, but I would humbly and respectfully suggest you remove "I" from your statements. You did not write the check, you helped the Lord in the process by acting as His agent, in doing this work for the Bishop, who is acting for the Lord.

Also, I appreciate the comments of others. While I have never received Church financial or emotional (ie counseling) assistance, sometimes I've thought I could benefit from a few visits w/a psychologist just due to various emotiona/psych type challenges.

I have health insurance though it probably wouldn't pay for LDS services. Also, due to my work, I am reluctant to get this help as I don't want to have to "check" off (ie in future job applications) that i've ever received pscyh counseling.

But reading some of these comments that tend to judge those who receive this
help and getting more insight into the minds of a financial clerk assures me that I will not ask for this help.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Val,

Advise your bishop to read page 19 in the new Church Handbook of Instructions.

The Presiding Bishopric of the Church shares your concerns about $$$ going out for counseling and wrote a letter with that subject heading to all Bishops and Stake Presidents dated April 16th, 2007.

I believe that if a Bishop is listening to the spirit, a member can get better counseling in 10 minutes in the Bishops office than they could get in a month of appointments with a counselor.

In our stake at present, stake wide we are $100 in arears to the Church for fast offerings. As an inner city stake it is very difficult.

After needs and resource analysis forms are filled out members must work and show work reciepts from DI or the storehouse in Mesa prior to receiving assistance. There are few exceptions.

We have asked the active members in our stake to pay 10% of what they pay in tithing as a fast offering. If everyone in the Church would do that, there would be no legitamate needs that could not be met... and we could reach out to the entire world to bless lives.

M

nitasmile · Senior Member

Mahonri wrote:

Val,

I believe that if a Bishop is listening to the spirit, a member can get better counseling in 10 minutes in the Bishops office than they could get in a month of appointments with a counselor.

lives.

M

Mahonri - with all respect, there are areas where trained counselors and psychologists are more q ualified than a bishop. Still, I understand what you mean about the 10 minutes of listening to a bishop who is truly inspired. What a great gift such a visit would be to one who is truly suffereing.

Still I think just as a bishop could not provide oral care unless he was a dentist, I think there are certain areas of mental care that need the help of one w/more extensive training and expertise in how to address those type of concerns.

A funny thing happened at a singles insitute class a few months ago. One girl wasn't in the class as her dog had surgery. So they said this girl stayed home and thus the class was being recorded for her. They said the "bishop told that girl to stay home with the dog". So someone said, "the bishop told her to stay home w/the dog?" We wondered about that for a second and then someone else piped in something like "the bishop is also the dog's vet and had been the one to do the surgery!" Had this bishop not been a vet, he still could have advised this girl to stay home- but he would not have been able to do the surgery.

Anyway, I appreciate what you said about the 10 minutes. So much healing could come to people who really felt that deep love and concern of a dedicated priesthood holder and representative of Heavenly Father. I am just trying to say that just like sometimes the body needs physical help and expertise of qualified medical people, sometimes the mind needs the expertise of those qualified to treat the mind and emotions.

Since the spirit is so connected w/the mind & body, I respect the value of the bishop being able to counsel in all matters of the spirit. And if one's spirit is "healed" via good counsel of the bishop, maybe the mind will automatically heal. However, I do think there are times and situations that necessitate the involvement of specialists in that area.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

I understand what you are saying Nita.

A dentist manipulates teeth and gums.
Can a bishop? If he is a dentist! :0)
Can the Spirit of the Lord? I'd say it's possible.

Can a counselor manipulate the mind? For me the jury is still out.
Can a bishop? With the inspiration of the Spirit.
Can the Spirit of the Lord? No doubt.

I've truly seen it both ways and the pendulum in my mind has swung both ways.

I have a dear friend who has seen a counselor for years... I don't think he felt comfortable spilling his guts to his bishop or stake president. He paid for it out of his own pocket. The counselor has been a blessing in his life and he is now helping him through a horrid divorce.

I have seen people who get counseling from a trained professional not need as much help financially for other things.... thus saving the Bishop and Ward from providing more in the long run. Unfortunately, those situations are more and more rare.

There are exceptions to everything.

I still stand by my contention that Bishops must keep their lives in order in every way so that they can receive inspired communication from the Spirit to bless the lives of the Saints.

We need more spiritual self reliance in the Church. No doubt about it.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think there's also a feeling that if someone gets a help through LDS Social Services (where there are many great counsellors) that it's a church sponsored activity, and should be paid for by the church, rather than the individual. There are probably cheaper psychologists out there--the type that tell you to blame your problems on your mother, take no responsbility for your actions and want you to play the part of an abused victim. These types of counselors are plenty and many fall victim to them...

arbilad · Head Chef

Nitasmile, what you are saying is accurate - to a point. Ask yourself this: who understands our problems, whether they are physical, emotional, mental, or spiritual, better than absolutely anyone else? The Lord knows us inside and out. Plus, He has a perfect knowledge of psychiatry, medicine, physics, etc. Therefore, He knows exactly what could be done to cure someone's mental problem. Is a Bishop going to have that same knowledge? Not necessarily. He has to be living right. He has to have faith and know how to listen to the Spirit. The Lord needs to think that it is appropriate for Him to intervene in this way through the Bishop. But ask yourself this: if the Lord knows perfectly what a person's mental problem is, and how to fix it, could he not convey that information to a righteous, in tune Bishop?
After all, by the power of the Spirit people have spoken in languages that they had no previous knowledge of. A mother in early church history fixed her child's bullet wound in a manner not known to medical science of the time. Even if she had been a doctor she wouldn't have had that knowledge, and she wasn't a doctor anyway.
I am not denigrating experts. If I break a leg, I'm going to go to the hospital, not to my Bishop. My Bishop could heal it, and I'm pretty certain mine has the faith to do so. But if the Lord wants him to do so, my Bishop (or hometeacher for that matter) can do so while I'm in the emergency room.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Please, don't misunderstand, I was curious as to guidelines and how it worked. I am not going to go ask the bishop about his decisions. I don't think that is within my right to do so, he is the appointed judge in Israel on the matters, and he answers to the Lord on this, not me.

Yes, I am bothered by some of what I see going out, but it is not my call.

Also, at what point do you say, enough!? Do you just keep dumping money on the issues, counseling or otherwise?

Nita, you are assuming judgment where none is being given. Of counseling issues and payments, I know the people receiving the help and I do not doubt that there are issues, but is it necessary for it to be funded by people's donations? Maybe I don't understand mental health enough, maybe it is my own tenacious nature.

Dyany · Senior Member

I have received counseling on and off for years. LDS social services IS often covered by insurance because they are real, licensed counselors, but church funds generally back them up because you have to be referred by a bishop to go to LDS social services. IMHO, the church wouldn't provide such extensive resources to their counseling services if they didn't consider them necessary.

I have a chemical imbalance. I was never abused. But counseling helps me anyway, by teaching me ways that I can deal with the incessant dark thoughts that plague me. For years, being a poor college student and poor psychology grad, I relied solely on priesthood blessings and talking to friends. But the Lord provides professional help for a reason, and I have been helped much more permanently by the professional help I have received. I still get blessings on the matter occasionally, but I am much stronger on my own, which is what the Lord wants. So please don't knock counseling. It is one of the Lord's tools to help us.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Valhalla wrote:
Nita, you are assuming judgment where none is being given. Of counseling issues and payments, I know the people receiving the help and I do not doubt that there are issues, but is it necessary for it to be funded by people's donations? Maybe I don't understand mental health enough, maybe it is my own tenacious nature.

I'm not trying to assume judgment. I think it is more frustration that I don't want people judging me or others who might need these social services. My understanding of the LDS social services is ti is funded on a sliding scale?

In my last ward, I know the bishop would not give financial assistance (I don't know about the Psych services/counseling aspect) unless people were doing certain things he'd asked, example paying tithing & certain church attendance, or canceling their cable,etc. I know (anecdotally via from the calling I had at the time) of one person who didn't get certain help as the person didn't do what the bishop had requested. I do see the points & share that frustration you shared at the start about people geting help w/utilities yet not attending church. Maybe it changes based on if the recipient has dependents at home?

Again, I do see the frustration of your example of someone getting help w/a gas bill and not attending church. Tithing,etc has been one of my weakness at times. I am happy to say I've been good in keeping this commandment for the last 6 months. I had really wanted to pay, I would play the hymn "How Gently God's Commandments" and just want to be able to pay yet didn't feel I could due to my other financial committments. (My fault, I know)> Then in early Nov I got a raise that enabled me to pay, if this makes sense. Still, at times I would feel unfriendliness from the financial clerk- I realize it was my own self-judging of myself. Also, even though I am trying to be better now.

Still, I have some areas of struggle- example the gas bill in winter is high here (200 plus per month). So in winter I pay it in segments.
So when I read of those who might not go to church or serve in church and get a gas bill paid for, I can see the frustration. I have 3 callings, and I try my best to do them. Yet this makes me tired from the callings and also makes me tired to do the personal things I need to do, such as finding a better job and completing applications, etc. Yet Heavenly Father was good to me in granting the blessing I mentionned above, so I don't feel I can ask for a release. Also I don't want to ask for a release, each of the calling helps me in some way. (one calling on the activities committee will be getting released as the chairlady is getting released in the summer after our next 2 activities are done). I feel it is doable w/good delegation. It would be nice if the bishp or someone said here is a list of 2 or 3 people that can help w/tasks for your calling. I know people who receive help are supposed to (ideally) help out at the bishop storehouse,e tc. But maybe for those who couldn't leave home and don't attend church, select individuals who receive help could help w/some aspects of people's callings. (example I have 2 things to make for our upcoming ward activity, it would be nice to have another source of people to ask for help). Yet I realize if people are in those type of straits they might also be unwilling or unable to assist w/these aspects of church service. But for certain few, it might be appropriate.

I would not ask for help, as Mahonri mentionned the need to be self-reliant. So that is w he re I am now, trying to get the energy to get either a second job or change my current job so that I can get better compensation. (I think my employer underpays compared to similar jobs, also lots of money goes to health benefits compared to other jobs that offer better deals on health insurance).

My onus is to improve my methods of winterproofing,etc so that I don't have such high gas bills in the future.

Still, I am glad this program is there to help those who truly are in need. I know of one person who has received some help for a little while. This person is one of the most faithful members I've met, the savings of this person had run out and the person couldn't work for at least a year or so for health reasons. I have appreciated hearing this person express gratitude for the financial assistance. Also this person hadn't gone to the bishop for help, rather this person shared how the home teacher was this and saw certain bills lying around (one which said Utility to be cut off) and put two and two together and asked if this person had money to pay. The reply was a humble no- and this person received the needed help.
It is for people like this why it makes me realize the need to contribute and be grateful for those who decide the distribution of funds.

OK, this is more open and way longer than I intended but I hope it shows that while I might have sounded judgmental, it is sort of a conflicted judgment.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Mahonri wrote:

I believe that if a Bishop is listening to the spirit, a member can get better counseling in 10 minutes in the Bishops office than they could get in a month of appointments with a counselor.

I don't necessarily agree with that, unless the Bishop is trained in counseling, such as counseling the depressed or those with needs at learning how to communicate in marriage again.

But, it is prudent for a Bishop to be wise in the discernment and discretion of who, when, and for how long to help those where an outside professional will be more beneficial than what a Bishop may personally be capable of.

As you stated in your later post, there are many who are not comfortable sharing everything with their Bishop, and it has nothing to do with sin or guilt. It is the knowledge that this man is their spiritual leader, and as good and kind and spiritual as he may be, it can place the individual in a feeling of double inadequacey, for he know not only is the one I confess sins to when necessary, but he also knows of my socially stigmatized weaknesses or other cultural inadequacies, and that is just compounded exponentially if there is any, absolutely any, level of gossip within the ward.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but the idea of "spiritual self-reliance" has been brought up, and often it is mistakenly assumed that those who are in need elsewhere are perhaps lacking in spiritual self-reliance. I'd like to discuss along that line a bit. Sorry for the length.

Spiritual self-reliance is nothing more than having your own testimony of The Risen Lord, the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, that Joseph Smith was the prophet through whom the Gospel was restored in it's fullness, that the current president of the Church is the living prophet and oracle for The Lord, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church upon the face of the earth that is recognized by The Lord as His church.

One can have that, and still be plagued with depression or other mental health problems, marital difficulties, financial problems, physical health problems, or other things that can only be helped to overcome or deal with by the aide of individuals professionaly trained to help those conditions. That is no less miraculous than healing solely via priesthood blessings, because both require faith and the healing ultimately comes from The Lord.

Spiritual self-reliance does not mean we are a bunch of little islands that just meet together on Sundays and then go our merry way. What did King Benjamin say concerning spiritual self-reliance in Mosiah 4 , how about Alma in Mosiah 18 ?

How about Pres. Marion G. Romney (from June 1984 Ensign) Can we see how critical self-reliance becomes when looked upon as the prerequisite to service, when we also know service is what godhood is all about? Without self-reliance one cannot exercise these innate desires to serve. How can we give if there is nothing there? Food for the hungry cannot come from empty shelves. Money to assist the needy cannot come from an empty purse. Support and understanding cannot come from the emotionally starved. Teaching cannot come from the unlearned. And most important of all, spiritual guidance cannot come from the spiritually weak. There is an interdependence between those who have and those who have not. The process of giving exalts the poor and humbles the rich. In the process, both are sanctified. The poor, released from the bondage and limitations of poverty, are enabled as free men to rise to their full potential, both temporally and spiritually. The rich, by imparting of their surplus, participate in the eternal principle of giving. Once a person has been made whole, or self-reliant, he reaches out to aid others, and the cycle repeats itself. We are all self-reliant in some areas and dependent in others. Therefore, each of us should strive to help others in areas where we have strengths. At the same time, pride should not prevent us from graciously accepting the helping hand of another when we have a real need. To do so denies another person the opportunity to participate in a sanctifying experience. One of the three areas emphasized in the mission of the Church is to perfect the Saints, and this is the purpose of the welfare program. This is not a doomsday program, but a program for our lives here and now, because now is the time for us to perfect our lives. May we continue to hold fast to these truths.
How about Elder Uchtdorf from October 2005 conference?
May I add a word of caution to those of us who live in large wards and stakes. We have to be careful that the center of our testimony is not located in the social dimension of the Church community or the wonderful activities, programs, and organizations of our wards and stakes. All of these things are important and valuable to havebut they are not enough. Even friendship is not enough.We recognize that we are living in a time of turmoil, disaster, and war. We and many others feel strongly the great need for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth (D&C 115:6). How do we find such a place of safety? The prophet of God, even President Hinckley, has taught: Our safety lies in the virtue of our lives. Our strength lies in our righteousness (Till We Meet Again, Liahona, Jan. 2002, 105; Ensign, Nov. 2001, 90).Recall with me how Jesus Christ instructed His Apostles, clearly and directly, at the beginning of His mortal ministry, [Come,] follow me, and I will make you fishers of men (Matt. 4:19). This was also the beginning of the ministry of the Twelve Apostles, and I suspect that they had a feeling of inadequacy, as I deeply have, being one who has also been called to this sacred work. May I suggest that the Savior Himself teaches us here a lesson about core doctrine and priorities in life. Individually, we need to first follow Him, and as we do this, the Savior will bless us beyond our own capacity to become what He wants us to be.To follow Christ is to become more like Him. It is to learn from His character. As spirit children of our Heavenly Father, we do have the potential to incorporate Christlike attributes into our life and character. The Savior invites us to learn His gospel by living His teachings. To follow Him is to apply correct principles and then witness for ourselves the blessings that follow. This process is very complex and very simple at the same time. Ancient and modern prophets described it with three words: Keep the commandmentsnothing more, nothing less.Developing Christlike attributes in our lives is not an easy task, especially when we move away from generalities and abstractions and begin to deal with real life. The test comes in practicing what we proclaim. The reality check comes when Christlike attributes need to become visible in our livesas husband or wife, as father or mother, as son or daughter, in our friendships, in our employment, in our business, and in our recreation. We can recognize our growth, as can those around us, as we gradually increase our capacity to act in all holiness before [Him] (D&C 43:9).The scriptures describe a number of Christlike attributes we need to develop during the course of our lives. They include knowledge and humility, charity and love, obedience and diligence, faith and hope. These personal character qualities stand independent of the organizational status of our Church unit, our economic circumstances, our family situation, culture, race, or language. Christlike attributes are gifts from God. They cannot be developed without His help. The one help we all need is given to us freely through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Having faith in Jesus Christ and in His Atonement means relying completely on Himtrusting in His infinite power, intelligence, and love. Christlike attributes come into our lives as we exercise our agency righteously. Faith in Jesus Christ leads to action. When we have faith in Christ, we trust the Lord enough to follow His commandmentseven when we do not completely understand the reasons for them. In seeking to become more like the Savior, we need to reevaluate our lives regularly and rely, through the path of true repentance, upon the merits of Jesus Christ and the blessings of His Atonement.
How about from A Leader's Guide to Welfare Providing The Lord's Way?

SPIRITUAL, EMOTIONAL, AND SOCIAL STRENGTH
To become spiritually and emotionally self-reliant, we should:
Have faith in Jesus Christ and exercise faith unto repentance.
Receive the saving ordinances of the gospel, including temple ordinances,and partake of the sacrament weeklyto renew our baptismal covenants.
Pray daily. Study the gospel of Jesus Christ in the scriptures and the teachings oflatter-day prophets.
Obey Gods commandments and follow the counsel of Church leaders.
Love God and love and serve others with the pure love of Christ(Moroni 7:47).
Shun anything that is morally and spiritually degrading.
Strengthen the family by praying together, studying the scripturestogether, holding weekly familyhome evening, and loving andcaring for one another.
Attend Church meetings and serve in Church callings and assignments.
Do the best we can to adjust to change and recover from misfortune.
Share the gospel with friends and relatives.
Identify and submit deceased ancestors names for temple ordinancesand do temple work as often ascircumstances allow.To become socially self-reliant, weshould:
Develop good relationships with family members and with others(see Matthew 7:12, 12; Luke 10:27;D&C 64:910).
Love and serve others. Communicate effectively with others.
edited to try and fix the funky fonts in the last quote.

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 13:00, 2007-05-15

arbilad · Head Chef

I'm curious about this one bit:

I don't necessarily agree with that, unless the Bishop is trained in counseling, such as counseling the depressed or those with needs at learning how to communicate in marriage again.

Are you saying that it is impossible for a Bishop without training in counseling to say the right thing or ask the right questions to resolve someone's problem? There have been many cases in history where people where able to do something way past their knowledge level when the Lord put that knowledge into their head.
I'm not saying it needs to happen that way in every case. I'm not even saying that it will happen frequently. But you seem to be saying that it could not happen, and so I'm asking for clarification.
We don't know for sure, but it seems easy to infer, from context, that Nephi was not a ship builder, for instance.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Unless it has changed, there was a policy that Bishops were not to be using Bishop counseling as a replacement for professional counseling when the latter was necessary and the Bishop is not a professional counselor. Doing so has gotten the Church and some local leaders in legal problems in the past.

Of course, maybe based on the letter Mahonri referenced, there is the feeling too much $ is being spent on referrals for counseling services. Or, maybe there is overall more need than funds available, and that local leaders are being asked to be more prudent in keeping counseling referrals to LDS Social Services where possible. So, now, maybe some local leaders are going to feel more hesitant to make the referral, thus assuming more risk for themselves and the Church if they make a mistake.

Maybe what is really being said by the letter is that the funds are being stretched thin because need is exceeding offerings. I remember attending a Stake Priesthood meeting once where the Stake President got up and opened up a paper lunch sack. He took out several items. They were pretty meager food commodities, and would have amounted to maybe a light lunch for a kid. He then stated, "Brethren, this is what on average the meal would consist of for those who are receiving assistance through the welfare program in our region receive for the money that is given via fast offerings by the membership in our local stakes."

I'm not saying that which I think you imply I am... that Bishop's can't / don't receive inspiration. Quite the contrary. Perhaps the inspiration is that the Spirit tells him the individual's / family's needs are greater than he can provide counseling on. But, I do remember a comment I overheard from my Dad once when he and my Mom were having a hard time... Mom had suggested they get some marital counseling, and his response was essentially "yeah, sure... I'm the one who is supposed to be giving it and how is that going to look for me going and getting it?!"

Perhaps we all can do a better job of really donating a generous fast offering.

dilbert · Senior Member

I would probably group a bishop offering counsel to a person suffering from clinical depression and curing them with a bishop giving a priesthood blessing to someone suffering from cancer and healing them. They both would definitely be possible but they both would be miraculous events. Based on my experience, I would suspect that neither scenario would be common.

I doubt very much that 10 minutes of inspired counsel from the Lord given through a bishop would routinely heal someone suffering from clinical depression, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, or severe anxiety. It seems that the counsel would need to be accompanied by a miraculous healing. (And unless anyone misunderstands, I am a person who believes in miracles and in the Lord's ability to take an ordinary man and perform mighty works through him.)

dilbert · Senior Member

As I think about this thread, I think that Valhalla's concerns may boil down to a couple of things:

-Concern that the assistance is really hurting the individual rather than helping.
-A desire to not be played for a sucker.

I am glad to share what I have with those who are going through a tough time. I like Joseph Smith's metaphor of life being like a wagon wheel--sometimes you are on top and sometimes you are on the bottom. Especially when I am on the top I am happy to help out someone who is down. In fact, when I look at someone whose life is going much rougher than mine is I feel a certain obligation to help them. But if their difficulties are a result of their bad decisions, I don't want to encourage them to continue to make the same bad choices. That wouldn't be helping at all. And it leaves a certain bad taste in my mouth to be generous to someone who is simply playing the system to try to get free money.

I know that I feel those concerns, so I certainly don't fault Valhalla or anyone else from worrying about those. In general I resolve those concerns by assuming that having a bishop running the church welfare system avoids most of those kinds of problems. Bishops do have guidelines (that question was asked somewhere up above) on how to administer the assistance. And they certainly can and do receive direction from the Lord on what to do in specific cases. But the Lord does not command in all things, even to bishops, and He expects all of us including bishops to learn to use wisdom and make good decisions without always being told what to do. I know that mistakes have been made in administering welfare--I have seen some firsthand.

I guess the best thing to do in such a case would be to pray for my heart to be softened and also to pray that the Lord will help the situation turn out for the best. Oh, and in such cases I have also prayed to thank the Lord that I don't have to be the one making those decisions.

Dyany · Senior Member

Along these lines (sort of) I wanted to relate a story that happened with us this week. (I posted this on the Other Forum so if you've already read it I apologize.)

I tend to get behind on tithing. It's not that I don't want to pay it, it's just that almost all of my bills are auto-pay and I don't like collectors and tithing takes time to sit down and figure out so I don't always get to it in a timely fashion. This year was the worst ever -- I started out behind, was incapacitated by surgeries for a couple of months, then was afraid to look at the bills for a couple of months.
This weekend, however, I sat down and calculated everything and paid everything. Tithing (since we pay gross) amounted to a few thousand dollars, taking almost everything from the bank. This worried me because I hadn't paid the hospital bill from my emergency surgery and it was over $23,000 so I figured our part would be bad. My faith was really tested. I didn't want to pay that much in tithing, with fast offerings to boot. But I told the Lord I would do it anyway and asked him to help me strengthen my faith.

Monday I called the hospital to see what our balance was, since I hadn't received anything since the first statement and I was afraid that insurance was contesting part of it causing a delay.

Turns out insurance paid all of it. Every last penny.

Now, I'm not perfect. We're actually horrible with money in my house. The Lord could have decided to withhold blessings from us because I am not a good person and I don't deserve the help that He could provide, same as imperfect people might not 'deserve' the help the Lord can provide through the church and fast offerings. But the Lord loves me and forgives me and wants to help me anyway. He doesn't want to enable -- that's why there are rules -- but it's not our place to decide who deserves help and who doesn't. And it seems very much to me like paying bills would not be tied to 'enabling' someone to be inactive. If we are to err, let us err in favor of love and people, not err in judging harshly who deserves what.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Dilbert,

I imagine I wouldn't be asking you for a priesthood blessing. Should we not expect a miracle each and every time? Isn't that part of what the priesthood is for?

dilbert · Senior Member

Thank you for sharing that, Dyany.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Mahonri, are you actually saying that you perform miracles with each and every blessing you give?

Give me a break.

The stark reality is that God does not always heal us, even if we have enough faith. The miraculous stories make it into the scriptures and the Ensign, but for every miracle, there are scores of people who are asked to simply endure.

dilbert · Senior Member

Mahonri wrote:

Dilbert,

I imagine I wouldn't be asking you for a priesthood blessing. Should we not expect a miracle each and every time? Isn't that part of what the priesthood is for?

Has that been your experience, Mahonri? That a miracle is performed each and every time a priesthood blessing is given? A miracle on the order of curing a terminal disease or a mental illness?

I hope for a miracle every time. I believe the Lord can perform a miracle every time. I want a miracle every time. But a lifetime of "No" and "Not yet" responses has taught me the futility of trying to impose my will on the Lord. I know that he can remove any trial that you or I face--any trial at all. But I have observed that He, in His wisdom, often does not.

I'm confident that you know that as well. Maybe we are talking past each other. I do excercise faith each time I give a blessing, but it is more with the attitude of pleading with the Lord rather than thinking that I am going to dictate what will happen. Do you approach priesthood blessings differently?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Often the Lord asks his people to wait and endure... Isaiah 40:31...

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

It's good to know I have lots of company...

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Dilbert:

Did I say anything about "clinical depression, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, or severe anxiety"

NO, I did not.

Can a "counselor" take care of any of the above? Not very often.

Physicians can on rare occasions prescribe meds that can help though.

BTW: thanks for the excellent clarification.

BoK;

I've never performed any miracle, but I've witnessed the Lord perform many.

-- Edited by Mahonri at 03:21, 2007-05-16

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Mahonri wrote:
Did I say anything about "clinical depression, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, or severe anxiety"

NO, I did not.

But you did imply it by stating you felt "a member can get better counseling in 10 minutes in the Bishops office than they could get in a month of appointments with a counselor."

Mahonri wrote:

Can a "counselor" take care of any of the above? Not very often.

Physicians can on rare occasions prescribe meds that can help though.

A Bishop, unless he is a trained, licensed psychiatrist / psychologist or MD, can not provide the prescriptions or other treatment therapies to those he counsels as a Bishop, now can he? Perhaps I should define "counselor" to specifically mean those individuals, and not just "social workers". In that respect, if the counselor is just a "social worker", well you'd have about as much chance of getting real help as by going to the barber for getting a root canal done.

It is not rare occasions when prescribed medications help those suffering from acute or chronic mental illness. It may seem that way since sometimes there is some trial and error in finding the right combination to get brain chemistry back on even keel. And, much like a physical injury where more than just a cast is necessary to set a broken bone but later physical or occupational therapy is essential in restoring mobility, there is the need for certain therapies to help the injured mind regain mobility after the "bone has set".

Whether the healing comes solely from a blessing or solely from the work of a professional health care provider, or a combination of both, it is equally miraculous. Both require faith (as in working towards that which is good and true and yet unseen) and are necessarily based on truth and gifts from God.

We would all do well, I think, to look for and show gratitude for the little miracles we experience everyday and too often take for granted or ignore. Maybe then it will be easier to recognize the big ones. For they both do happen.

nitasmile · Senior Member

One quick story about miracles. I heard this tonight at activity days. Our other leader shared w/me this story her teen son shared w/her. He shared it w/her during their Sudnay talk when they discuss what happened at Church, etc. He had heard the story in his Sunday school class. It happened to the son of someone in our ward, a few years ago I think. I will refer to this teen son as Y and the activity day leader, his mom as E.

Basically there was a soccer game in which a young boy ended up dying, as the goal post or something landed on him. (I didn't get the full details and plan to find out more). So after the accident, the boy received a priesthood blessing, he received it on the field.

Back to the present, so Y was telling his mom, E this story about this game and the blessing. Y says their was a miracle in the blessing. E says to her son, "..so after the blessing, the boy lived...?" And Y says, "..no mom, he died. The miracle is that he got the blessing before he died."

So my understanding is the blessing was given even before paramedics, etc could tend to him. Even though this boy died, the miracle being that he could receive that blessing in the final moments, even when the others who could help him were not yet there.

I found that story touching yet chilling. How wonderful if in a traumatic situation like this, one could have a blessing in those final moments of life. Who knows if this helped ease pain, discomfort or provided some sort of other relief.

Anyway, again I don't know all the details, I hope to get them. But I think I have the gist of it right. It is a way of looking at a blessing that I've never previously considered.