Mohammed a false prophet?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Mohammed a false prophet?

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

rayb wrote:
Do we all agree that Mohammed was a false prophet?

I've studied quite a bit of the history and find his story to be eerily similar to some of the struggles the early restoration faced. I don't personally know whether he was or was not deceived. I think it's entirely possible that he received inspiration. Joseph Smith likened himself to Mohammed.

I think that those who followed Mohammed probably neglected the will of God, however, and I would not be surprised if Mohammed's writings were altered over time by religious teachers and successors of the prophet.

What do you think?

--Ray

I think he was a power hungry murderer whose lapsed-Catholic wife talked him into believing he had seen a revelation in a cave, and who committed horendous attrocities in the name of God.

His writings were corrupt when they sprang forth from his pen, and, if altered since, have only become moreso.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

He may or may not have been a prophet. We know that Christ visited many places after the resurection including the Nephites. Nearly every place on earth has a legend of a great white God who came and taught great things and promised to return someday. I'm sure where the Savior went and taught there were prophets. We also know that there were righteous Priesthood holders outside of Israel. Jethro the father in law of Moses held the Priesthood. So it was present outside of the 12 tribes even before Moses. The term Prophet is also used rather loosely in ancient times when compared with today. Today we generally refer to the first presidency and the 12 as prophets. There were many prophets at the time of Jeremiah. The old testament is full of minor prophets who may not have had as many keys as some of the major ones. Jonah is considered a prophet but in comparrison to Noah, Moses, or Elijah he seems to be in a different class especially since he seems so rebellious. Obviously Moses, Elijah, and Noah were Seers which is greater than a prophet according to the scriptures we have. Today the 12 and first presidency are sustained as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. Perhaps the term prophet was just generic in the old days for anyone that might be one of those or all three. In this context could Mohammed have been a prophet and could the Koran have been divine scripture at one time. I'm not willing to rule it out. Obviously the Koran would be very corrupted and not unlike biblical apocrapha or Jewish Mythology at this point. Could Mohammed have been a prophet with Priesthood authority. Why not? If Jonah could and lose his way then certainly Mohammed could also. Of course our history is so full of holes for back then it is difficult to say what happened for sure. Maybe the story of Mohammed is so corupted that we can't get a true historical or religious view of the man anymore. I'm sure there were many other prophets and holy writ on the earth that we are unaware of. Perhaps they will be revealed to us someday.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

A look at the timeline should help. He came well after the apostalic era. Therefore, at best, he would have had a mishmash of various teachings from the various apostate sects of earlier christendom, the various sects of the jews, and of course the cultural traits of the bedouins and other tribes that were directly or indirectly descended from Ishmael.

As to claim to any keys, there is none that I am aware. He couldn't have claimed them from any ishmaelitish ancestry, because by that time, all priesthood keys (whether held by jews or ishmaelites or gentiles as christians) had been removed from the old world with the death (or disappearance of as in John) of the Apostles.

Could he have originally started out with an inspiration and desire to reform the religious community he was contemporary to, much like Martin Luther or John Calvin? Sure... but, we don't consider those men to be prophets do we?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Ah but in our own church we believe in prophets with a capital P and prophets with a lowercase p. A primary teacher can be a prophet when they speak with the tongue of angels. Paul wished that all the members were prophets--but I doubt he wanted them all to be Peter.

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

If Mohammed was at one time a prophet, he became a fallen prophet. He introduced such concepts as a peace where you simply rearm, regroup, and otherwise prepare to meet an enemy that you couldn't beat the firsttime. That's a very dishonest practice which continues to this day.
He may have had a few truths revealed to him, but he didn't do good things with them.
Boy, do I hope that no radical muslims are reading this board!

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

How about posting some drawings so we can get death threats Arbi!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I hope no moderate muslims read this, cuz quite frankly I don't think they represent the church's stance on Islamic relations at all... in fact I'm surprised at how unsympathetic these opinions are... I know there are possibilities that the whole affair of islam is one big secret combination--the great and abominable, and certainly I have major problems with fundamentalists islamic terrorists, but I fail to see how we can afford to have such strong opinions and expect that these inflammatory opinions will help spread the Restored Gospel?

--Ray

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Yes, I would very much have to keep my mouth shut, and pray for an extreme softening of my heart toward Mohamed, if I were ever called as a missionary to an Islamic land.

In the meantime, I'll just continue to believe the well-documented historical record of his attrocities.

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

I hope no moderate muslims read this, cuz quite frankly I don't think they represent the church's stance on Islamic relations at all... in fact I'm surprised at how unsympathetic these opinions are... I know there are possibilities that the whole affair of islam is one big secret combination--the great and abominable, and certainly I have major problems with fundamentalists islamic terrorists, but I fail to see how we can afford to have such strong opinions and expect that these inflammatory opinions will help spread the Restored Gospel?

--Ray

Well, Ray, you did ask us what our opinions were.

And which specific statements do you feel are at odds with the church's attitude towards muslims? For instance, they have not said that there are no muslim terrorists, so my statement that there are terrorists today who use periods of peace to rearm and regroup is not out of line with the church's attitude.

I have worked with some muslims that I have a lot of respect for. One is a former boss of mine and we still keep in touch. But, as one islamic scholar said (I'll have to find the exact quote and who said it), it is a fact that not all muslims are terrorists, but it is an unfortunate truth that most terrorists are muslim.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Okay, let me qualify what I said in the other thread as to why I thought it was a bad comparison... it is because of the contemporary negative connotation and view most in the western world have towards islam and their prophet since 9/11.

Seems to me that I have heard at one time or another that Joseph Smith did compare himself to Mohammed, at least from a standpoint of introducing something that was radical, revolutionary, and yet at the same time attractive and vibrant to many people.

As to well-documented historical record of attrocities, I think one would be hard pressed to find any major religious persuasion that does not have people who have committed them and then tried to justify it as pertinent to their belief system. There is plenty of blood on collective hands to spread around...

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cat Herder wrote:

A look at the timeline should help. He came well after the apostalic era. Therefore, at best, he would have had a mishmash of various teachings from the various apostate sects of earlier christendom, the various sects of the jews, and of course the cultural traits of the bedouins and other tribes that were directly or indirectly descended from Ishmael.

As to claim to any keys, there is none that I am aware. He couldn't have claimed them from any ishmaelitish ancestry, because by that time, all priesthood keys (whether held by jews or ishmaelites or gentiles as christians) had been removed from the old world with the death (or disappearance of as in John) of the Apostles.

Could he have originally started out with an inspiration and desire to reform the religious community he was contemporary to, much like Martin Luther or John Calvin? Sure... but, we don't consider those men to be prophets do we?

I don't think we can use the Apastolic timeline as a cut off nor the dissapearance of John the revelator simply because we don't know what state the church was in outside of Israel/Roman Empire and Islam extends over such a broad area from China through Europe. Obviously even with the Apostles gone the Nephites still had prophets and there may have been other groups that still had the gospel at this point in other parts of the world who did not leave a written record. With communication and travel being so difficult back then it is hard to imagine how connected the churches present in the Mediteranian and areas in and around Palestine would be with those in Persia, Arabia, India, or further out areas. There's just too much uncertainty for me to totally close the door on the possiblity that perhaps at one time he may have been a minor prophet akin to Jonah in authority and responsibility and that he may have gone astray as so many other civilizations obviously did during that period. Perhaps he wasn't a prophet himself but took the teachings he had heard from actual prophets from the area and put them together in a twisted form. It's all speculation and such. It will be interesting to see someday how many other places had prophets, priesthood, scriptures, etc but threw them away and they became lost and twisted over time. Odin and Thor, Allah, Buddah, the Popal Vul, etc., could all be twisted remants of original gospel teachings.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I don't begrudge your opinions, maybe I'm too empathetic to Mohammed's past... I dunno, but what i read and tried to understand, didn't come off as overly attrocious. But maybe I've read the wrong histories... (I've read a lot by Karen Armstrong.)

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Mohammed a false prophet?

Yes.

That was easy.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Does he fit into the Mormon history as a priesthood-endowed prophet of a dispensation? No.

Does he fit the dictionary definition, as "a person regarded as, or claiming to be, an inspired teacher or leader"? Yes.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It took church members and even Joseph Smith time to understand the Priesthood keys and ordinances and how they applied and how they were to be dispensed. If Mohammed were given authority to do what he did, perhaps he simply wasn't given the time--or perhaps there were none receptive enough to understand these gifts--to perpetuate a restoration. Perhaps God didn't call Mohammed to restore the Gospel, but to challenge the idol worshippers in the region...

It isn't like God doesn't cause one nation to rise to castigate another...

"I will stir up the Medes who will not regard silver nor gold..."

I think as we prepare to teach the Gospel to those who respect and revere Mohammed, we need to have a better story than, "He was a fallen prophet." By showing respect towards them, perhaps a few will be willing to try Moroni's promise and learn and increase in God's spirit, the glorious light of truth.

--Ray

Pt314 · Senior Member

In the new church missionary guide "Preach my Gospel", Mohammed is mentioned along with Buddha, Confucious, and the Reformers Tyndale, Luther ... as people who had been given some of the light and truth from God.

In the Book of Mormon in several places, God tells us that he gives knowledge unto nations that which they are willing to recieve.

I don't believe Muhammed had any priesthood authority, but he did clean up the horribly immoral pagan society in the area at the time.

This doesn't mean that Muhammed and his followers didn't violently spread their religion, or the other may I say evil actions taken.

-edit- Yes it is "Preach my Gospel" not "Teach my Gospel" thank you Polly for the nitpicking biggrin

.

-- Edited by Pt314 at 11:06, 2007-05-02

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Isn't it... "Preach My Gospel" not that I am normally a nit-picker... but it's a little different concept.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

In the Book of Mormon in several places, God tells us that he gives knowledge unto nations that which they are willing to recieve.

I'd be curious for a reference here. I know that when Alma desires in his famous poetic proclamation, "Oh that I were an angel," he observes...

4 I ought not to harrow up in my desires, the firm decree of a just God, for I know that he granteth unto men according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction.

5 Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, whether he desireth good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience.

6 Now, seeing that I know these things, why should I desire more than to perform the work to which I have been called?

7 Why should I desire that I were an angel, that I could speak unto all the ends of the earth?

8 For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.

In particular verse 8 indicates that the Lord grants to each nation of their own tongue in HIS wisdom all that HE sees fit they should have...

I know this will bother many of you, but I think we should assume the best when it comes to Islam. These are children of our Father in Heaven, capable of choosing good and evil, like you and I, but with a different amount of light.

They love their families. They want to raise their families with a devotion to God. And truth be known, these are the basic truths upon which we must build. We cannot tear down the structure, lest we tear down the whole... and therein is the danger.

Now I'm not going to pretend that there aren't terrible consequences from the misapplication and ignorance that has prevailed in their culture, but our culture isn't spotless either. And honestly we can't compare the two... What's worse a burqa or strawberry-flavored Meth? That sort of equivocation imo serves nothing.

But if we assume the best about others, they can see in themselves where and how to apply principles of truth and change for themselves--they are allowed to discover the truth and embrace it, hold onto it, and change themselves.

Isn't this how God works in our lives? Isn't this why it's a commandment to love your neighbor?

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Okay, so what was your point in starting the thread then Ray? If it was to say we all should be respectful of followers of islam as brothers and sisters and according to the article of faith that says we claim the privilege of worshiping almighty god to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all others the same privilege? If so, then just say so.

There doesn't need to be an insinuation that just because we (generically speaking of LDS and other Christians in general) do not acknowledge Mohammed as a prophet in the sense we understand the concept of Prophet of God, we are somehow assuming the worst of a whole group of peoples on earth. In some interpretations of their belief system, to acknowledge anyone, including Jesus Christ, as higher than Mohammed, or that anyone came after him, or even to talk about any of it, one is crossing the line into sinful behavior. But, that doesn't mean they are automatically disrespectful of us because of that.

Of course, some of the things folks have said herein do trend towards the less than respectful on the disparaging scale...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

My motive for the topic really isn't the point of this thread. If you wish to start a thread of your own on what motivates Ray to start topics, you may do so. Please stay on topic. :P

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

{hanging head in shame, realizing Ray has again successfully pressed a raybies button to simply stir the pot yet again...

}

You Brat!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Fregramis · Senior Member

The Catholic Church used violence at one time to spread its message (crusdaes, inquisition, monarchial control). Western civilization under went the Renaissance and then entered the modern era, or the age of reason and enlightenment. From this sprang the reemergence of democratic ideals and human rights, and the church along with divine right monarchy faded into the background.

Much of the Middle East missed this portion of history. We like to rub their faces in that, but there is a problem. We in the West have now entered a postmodern era from which has emerged moral relatvism and the glorification of the obscene. To be religious is to be criminal, but to be tolerant is true spirituality. No wonder the Islamic world has disdain for us. They fear to become what we are: godless.

I think Mohhamed was inspired by God to teach monotheism. I imagine if we could convert a whole host of Muslims they would be like the people of Ammon; they would never fall away. We will need the collective faith of many Ammons, however, before that happens. I'm not sure we are there yet.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Interesting comments, Freg. You may be on to something.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Well said, Freggy... So you got any Ammon childrens yet?

--Ray

Fregramis · Senior Member

I've got one, but I won't be letting him hang out with any teenage Almas! I'd like to avoid that whole "out to destroy the church episode" before his mission. wink

In all seriousness rayb, not just with my kids, but with many children in the LDS church, I see a more valiant and energetic strain of faith. I just hope LDS parents, especially myself, don't ruin this crop of stalwarts. If our kids will be sent to Middle Eastern countries in the next 20 years, just because the Church is recognized doesn't mean it will be safe. We may be asked to face more hazards while getting the message out.

That's a good topic for another thread: What is the acceptable level of danger should our full time Elders and Sisters face in sharing the gospel?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

What is the acceptable level of danger should our full time Elders and Sisters face in sharing the gospel?

Don't ask Abinadi...

--Ray

glumirk · Senior Member

The only Muslims I have met have been far more motivated to do good than I myself am. They have their weaknesses too, but they are intelligent and family oriented. There are some extremists, but I almost wonder if the extremists are to Islam as The Church of Christ (RLDS) is to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They just make more news because they make bigger messes. I know they don't have the whole truth, but in my World Religions class that I took in Institute, I learned that the story of Mohamed is very similar to that of Joseph Smith. Not to say whether he was a prophet or not, but as we tell Muslims about the Prophet Joseph Smith, maybe the likeness to their background will help them understand the Truth. Just my opinion, but I've never met a Muslim that I haven't liked. I know they are out there because they are on the news, but they are just extremists. People in general are good. The news, however, pretty much only shows the bad people. If all we watched was the news we would become a very cynical people. There is so much good in the world, but that's not what the news likes to show.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Comparing RLDS or Church of Christ people as extremists in comparison to LDS people is not accurate. My piano teacher was the wife of an RLDS pastor, and they as a group are good people. Very similar to typical protestant denominations, except they also believe in certain aspects of Joseph Smith's teachings, parts of the D&C that we have, and an edition of The Book of Mormon to some extent. Since they had the internal schism where they started to ordain women to their lay and paid clergy, they have distanced themselves more from the unique "mormon" type doctrines, which is part of the reason they changed their name.

Muslim extremists within islam are best compared to folks like Warren Jeffs and that group of people (for a contemporary relative comparison), or those who followed James J. Strang and his Strangite movement after the Prophet Joseph Smith's martydom (for a more historical relative comparison).

Convert · Veteran Member

There is a portion of the Qur'an that speaks of Allah (Heavenly Father) gathering believers together in the last days.

The NT talks of Christ gathering the remnants of the House of Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) in the last days unto Mt. Sinai. The tribes of E&M are found in countries dominated by Muslims.

Mormon in Arabic means Believer.

I have heard that the Church's greatest growth at this time is among Muslims in Europe.

Just thought I throw these little tidbits out.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Convert wrote:
I have heard that the Church's greatest growth at this time is among Muslims in Europe.

Do you have anything to support that assertion?

Having served a mission in Europe, I find that hard to believe. Of course, things may have changed in the past couple decades. Generally, in my day, we found muslims to be even less receptive than the rich Europeans... so much so that we focused our efforts on them even less than we would with the gypsies. They were not even integrated very well into the local culture.

I came to a ward shortly after a man from a islamic country had joined the church, and helped work to get him more integrated into the ward as a new convert. He had not told his family or his friends. Even then, he would become as dead to his family, culture, and community had he gone right out and told them he had converted to christianity. In today's climate of extremism, it can actually result in death if they return to an islamic nation.

Convert · Veteran Member

Do you have anything to support that assertion? As I said that's what I have heard. The information came from a friend of ours, George Potter. He has "The Nephi Project" http://www.nephiproject.com/

-- Edited by Convert at 10:34, 2007-05-23

-- Edited by Convert at 10:34, 2007-05-23

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Okay. So nothing necessarily more than anecdotal, unless he has stats in his research / books.

Convert · Veteran Member

You pose a good question so I just emailed him with the question. Will let you know his reply.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

In Italy we had more success with immigrants into the country no matter their faith, than with the Italians themselves... We had missionaries who on their own learned Arabic and Farsi.

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:

In Italy we had more success with immigrants into the country no matter their faith, than with the Italians themselves... We had missionaries who on their own learned Arabic and Farsi.

--Ray

Very interesting. In Japan, we had more success with immigrants from Korea than with the Japanese themselves. And we had missionaries who learned Korean on their own. I wonder what the common element is...

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Could it be missionary work????

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I think it would be wonderful if it is actual. Many times, I have found those of middle eastern background who accept the Gospel to be some of the most humble and unpretentious of people.

But, just remembering the bulk of members in the areas I served in Germany two decades ago, I wonder how open they would be to more "foreigners" in their wards and branches... Sometimes, they had enough of a problem being good fellowshippers and fellow saints one with another, and so bringing folks in who were not of their "community" or even ethnicity was too often the deal breaker. I can only think of two of the wards I served in where the level of fellowshipping even came close to that of the typical US ward. Of course, those were the wards in which I personally had part in the most success (stats / baptism wise) as a missionary. Don't get me wrong, the active German saints were some of the most dedicated I've met, but culturally, they are not exempt from the xenophobic influences that have developed over a couple centuries towards other ethnicities (namely those of non-northern/western European origin). Of course, I'm looking at things through the rose colored glasses of memories from 2 decades ago.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Mohammed was not a prophet. By their fruits, ye shall know them. He did not teach the Gospel.

Fregramis · Senior Member

I was told that if a Muslim who wishes to join our Church he/she must speak with a Seventy first, due to life forfeiture.

Convert · Veteran Member

Have had a busy day and just checked my email. Got an answer from our friend.

"I heard it at our SC in Bahrain from a member of the CEAP, of which we are a part of in Arabia. It might have been Elder Jenson, but I don't remember for sure. I was in the meeting.

George"

EDIT
Point taken, forgot about that.

Folks the " and " isn't quite correct due to editing

-- Edited by Convert at 23:09, 2007-05-24

-- Edited by Convert at 23:10, 2007-05-24

Fregramis · Senior Member

Convert wrote:

So please, mum is the word. Okay?

Dude, good luck! Do you know what Church you belong to?
The fact that Utah is called the Beehive state has more to do with "buzz" than industry, if you know what I mean.
wink

-- Edited by Fregramis at 07:13, 2007-05-25

Convert · Veteran Member

Dude, good luck! Do you know what Church you belong to?LOL I know, but I can hope can't I? Seriously I didn't want to broadcast the info but there was no other way to validate the source so that you could appreciate the significance of the work being done among Muslims.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Currently your message is part of multiple search engines... This forum is open to all lurkers, remember? You might want to edit out what you don't want listed as public knowledge...