Another School Shooting...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Another School Shooting...

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

For me personally, sad and tragic take a backseat to frustration here.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55226

Virginia issues conceal-carry permits. But they do not allow permit holders to carry on campus. Some republican legislators tried to change the law in 2006 to allow legal carry on campus, but the bill was defeated.

"I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus," the Virginia Tech spokesman said.

A death toll of 31 might have been limited to 1. Read the breaking story - the shooter killed one guy at 7:15 am. Then he wandered around for two hours, and then in a separate event, killed the rest of them. If it had been legal to carry on campus, perhaps the tiny number of permit holders on campus would have armed themselves until the guy was caught. Perhaps one of them might have been in Norris Hall. That person could have saved 30 lives.

But no, we'd rather people "feel safe".

Here is required reading for anyone who wishes to be armed with facts.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1143

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Unfortunately, this incident will increase the calls for more gun restrictions and laws which won't do diddly when someone is bent on murdering a slew of folks. Very sad day in America. I'm sure the Euros will make some condescending, self righteous statements. Chavez will probably point it out in his propaganda also.

Pt314 · Senior Member

Extremely upsetting.

This kind of thing doesn't meake me feel any safer when I am on the U of U campus. (They have a similar no guns policy, however at the moment the state forced them to suspend it.)

Not to mention I live just a few blocks from where that Trolley Square shooting was.

I am afraid we will see more of this in the future.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Sad indeed.

Of course back when I attended the U, I lived on 8th east between 2nd and 3rd South... not far from the U nor from Trolley Square, but all of my guns were kept in Utah Valley... I wouldn't have been able to help if a situation like this had arisen... but my roomates kept their guns there so perhaps they could have done something.

Fregramis · Senior Member

I'm going to say something controversial here. But I know who is responsible for this atrocity...

The jilted lover who shot himself in the face after slaughtering 32 innocent college kids. Yes, him. He killed those people. Guilty as charged.

Not his gun.

Not the NRA.

Not the gun makers.

Not his violent video games.

Not his girlfriend.

Not his parents who spanked him too much.

Not his SSRI medication.

Senseless? It makes perfect sense to me. He chose to release his anger on innocent people and go out with a bang. Any other explanation is a waste of time.

Sorry for being so blunt, but after Rosie O'Donnell and Columbine 8 yrs ago, I've had it with the finger pointing.

arbilad · Head Chef

This is truly a sad situation. But it chaps my hide when people use these events to argue for more gun control. Gun control helps situations like these to happen. Furthermore, it is up to the Lord to judge him and his heart. But I feel safe in saying that what he did was wrong and should be condemned. I feel much more sorrow for his victims than for him. He made his choice, knowing that it was likely that he would die as a result. Those students didn't go to school that day wondering if they would die.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Homestar Runner wrote:
Here is required reading for anyone who wishes to be armed with facts.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1143

Woo Hoo! Another CATO reader! Stratfor, CATO--and if ya'll read Amercian Thinker occasionally, then I'll just get all goose-bumply.

And Fregramis, nothing controversial there. Even if the shooter had been my son, I would have wanted someone to stop him, with deadly force if necessary, before he murdered another person.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Sometimes after a tragedy like this, when the debate rolls right into gun control so quickly it makes me sad. It's like people are saying, "Yeah, that's sad, but don't take away my gun. It's more important than those people who died."

I know that's not what anyone's saying but that's how it comes across...

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:

"Yeah, that's sad, but don't take away my gun. It's more important than those people who died."

"Because if I would have had my gun, maybe all those people wouldn't have been murdered."

eta: I believe that's how the reasoning goes.

-- Edited by Roper at 21:29, 2007-04-16

Fregramis · Senior Member

Imagine this happening every day.

We could then see how the Iraqis must feel. cry

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

The internet poll questions here of course are :Should there be tougher gun control laws?

Thankfully here in AZ it's running 14% yes 86% no.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

The Monday morning QBs are already having a field day with this. We hope the need for CYA action will not interfere with discovery and revelation of truth of what happened and why.

Fregramis · Senior Member

Well of course there should be tougher gun control laws. There really are no self control laws. How many of the 10 commandments are actually enforced by law? Two is all I can think of.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

Sometimes after a tragedy like this, when the debate rolls right into gun control so quickly it makes me sad. It's like people are saying, "Yeah, that's sad, but don't take away my gun. It's more important than those people who died."

I know that's not what anyone's saying but that's how it comes across...

--Ray

It comes across like that but the anti gun crowd is already crowing for more restrictions and the press is giving them free air play. The local rock station had someone on saying how this would never happen if there were no more guns. So pardon our gut reaction to immediately defend our second amendment rights. And our constitutional rights are more important than those who died. It may sound callous but then why do we fight wars and plant our bravest in rows upon rows for their defense?

glumirk · Senior Member

Sometimes, a law can really help a society. When you try to get nit-picky about things, just remember that usually the people who have actions making you want tougher laws would probably have broken the tougher laws as well. People who have actions such as these probably have more on their mind than keeping the law.

I'm praying for the people hurt by this tragedy, as well as praying that anyone who may be "inspired" to do the same will come to some sense and listen to "All you need is love" and realize that killing and hatred is not the way to solve any problems. And when I have children, I'm going to teach them to love others. I can't do much about anyone but my family. When you teach correct principles, individual laws really mean nothing. Sadly, the same is true when incorrect principles are taught. So let's get some missionary work done! Both the antis and the pro guns could use a little Truth.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Sadly, this is but another sign of the last days. The hearts of men are waxing cold. We can teach the gospel and love all over the world and these things will still continue to happen until the Savior returns. You can teach your children but for each of us that teaches our children correct principles there are 10 or more parents teaching their children either no principles or incorrect principles. The majority of children these days live in homes without both parents. Most of the kids my children attend school with have parents who remarried or never married in the first place. The gospel may be able to help some but now we have generation upon generation in like situation. I fear we are just seeing the beginning of the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

This showed up on http://michellemalkin.com yesterday, and she's churning out so much news, I thought I'd quote the letter in full here... Talk about terrifying. This is just an ordinary computer student's experience.

--Ray

Dear Michelle,
I was in Norris Hall today when the shootings took place. I thought I'd give you my account in case you wanted more information.
It was just a regular day in class; the door was open and we heard a pop-pop-popping noise. Sounded like some kind of construction but it was getting disruptive so we went to close the door, and one of the girls stepped out in the hallway to see what it was. She saw the gun and ran back inside the room and slammed the door shut and we all got down on the floor.
We heard pretty much continuous shooting for the next minute or so, and I said, "Shouldn't we barricade the door," because we were sitting ducks with no way out inside that room if he opened the door. A couple more people floated the idea that "We need to barricade the door, NOW." But I was too scared to even move, much less move the teacher's desk.
Finally one of the guys in the front of the classroom was brave enough to get up and move the desk in front of the door to prevent outside entry. About twenty seconds later, the shooter rattled the doorknob trying to get in. When he couldn't get in he fired two shots through the door (single solid piece of wood) and left. We heard him go in to 206 (the room across the hall) and shoot the people in that room. If we hadn't put the barricade up when we did, I and all my classmates would be dead.
When the police arrived five minutes later we heard them call for him to surrender his weapon and some more, irregular shots. Another five minutes later the police knocked and yelled "Police!" and we yelled "How do we know?" and when a second voice confirmed that it was in fact police, we opened the door. An officer came in and told us to line up single file, take nothing with us (I grabbed my coat) and run out the door single file while another officer escorted us.
We entered the hallway. Blood, bullet casings, and empty pistol clips were everywhere; this was definitely the most horrifying sight of my entire life. We ran past quickly. A door to the stairwell had been opened and there was a massive trail of blood; we found out later that a class had tried to escape only to find that the monster had chained the doors shut before starting his rampage. They were all killed.
We all ran to a nearby building and stayed there until we could be processed, and that was the end of it. Thank you all for your concerns and prayers, but please mostly pray for those who were seriously injured or hurt today.
Also, let me say that the response from the campus, local, and state police was exemplary. Within five minutes of the first shots, police were gathering outside. In another ten minutes, the threat had been neutralized and the building was secure. My heartfelt gratitude goes out to the brave men and women who kept us safe today.
--Jacob Simmons
junior, Computer Engineering, Virginia Tech

Imagine if that one fellow hadn't had the guts to get up and simply barricade the door... We like to pretend we would have the nerve to shoot a fellow human with our nifty handguns, but life is not just another videogame (or trip to the riflerange) to most people...

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 10:48, 2007-04-17

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

I just caught a glimpse of Rosie O'D on some TV show with Barbara Walters (CFR, I believe) clamouring for abolition of the 2. Amendment. "All they had were muskets back in those days."

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

There will be all kinds of things that people will want to have done to prevent this from happening in the future. Some practical, some impractical. Here is one I just thought of that may or may not be practical or impractical... you have security in the workplace, often times you have to have a badge to get into a building, and sometimes if you are on a campus of office buildings, your badge will only let you in certain buildings. How about on college campuses, make sure that students, faculty, and staff have to have badge access to buildings, and then restrict that badge access to only the buildings they should be in... oh wait, that would be restrictive and hard to enforce and be against people's rights to enter other buildings on campus... rolleyes

Yesterday afternoon, I hadn't even heard of it happening until the admin in our office area came back and said "What is this world coming to?!" She's Baptist, and she knows I'm LDS, and we have some good honest gospel discussions (in fact her father-in-law is investigating the Church currently). So, anyway I knew by her saying that that something bad had happened, so I asked what was wrong. She told me about the news... she had the news feed running in the background for the rest of the afternoon and some reporter had the gall to ask the person giving the news conference something to the effect of "what are you going to do to prevent this from happening in the future".

Yeah, right... any yahoo or nutcase who chooses to do something like this will likely do it. The only thing that can be done is to mitigate against it... It won't prevent it from happening.

arbilad · Head Chef

Let's suggest to Rosie that she walk through an inner city slum without her bodyguards or any other form of protection.
It makes me sick that people push gun control after stuff like this. Like after the columbine shootings in Colorado. Those kids broke all sorts of gun laws. More wouldn't have stopped them. But somehow the liberal left wants us to believe that only if there had been another law, the criminal would have somehow been thwarted, or seen the error of his ways and not committed the crime because finally there was a good gun control law.

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, a key card system would not have prevented this last shooting. In fact, one existed and it didn't prevent it. If they had locked down the campus, the shooter was one of the students and had the necessary keycard to go where he wanted to go.
Besides, in almost all cases where I've worked at a place where you had to open the door with an electronic pass, people would hold the door open for you. Even in places where they regularly reminded people not to.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Arbi, I was being facetious about the card key access to show how shallowly some folks think... it is simply a nominal mitigation and won't keep violent minded criminals out. There was a shooting where a disgruntled lover / boyfriend / whatever got through the card access security and killed the receptionist girlfriend at a building next door to one of our firm's buildings on another local office campus (where just a couple years ago, several of the buildings were all filled by our company, but now only one) just a week or so ago.

What I was trying to get at was when there is a will, the individual will find a way. Just look at what goes on in Baghdad and even within the Green Zone here lately. Can't say security there is lax...

arbilad · Head Chef

Ok, Cat, I understand where you're coming from now.
I've also heard the statement in regards to this tragedy that if there were no guns, this wouldn't have happened. That's a false and a misleading statement. First, how do you get rid of all guns? You don't. If the police and military have them, the criminals will find ways to get them. If you ban absolutely all gun manufacture and make it illegal for anyone, even police and military, to have them, then people can still make their own. From what I understand, the shooter used a 9mm Glock and a .22. Neither of those are so complicated that someone with access to the common tools couldn't make them.
Heck, if it came right down to it, he could have killed those people with a crossbow. The physics are simple, and it's not like you can ban the materials necessary to make them. Heck, the Myth Busters guys made a crossbow out of nothing more than they make available to a prisoner in a cell.

historian · Senior Member

Even in ugliness, there is goodness that still shines.

Here's a bit of story about a hero. Fair use for discussion purposes.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1665503.ece

A 76-year-old Jewish-Romanian lecturer was hailed a hero after blocking his classroom door long enough for many of his students to escape the Virginia Tech gunman, before being shot dead.

Liviu Librescu, a Holocaust survivor, pressed himself against the door of the classroom while shots were fired in the corridor and surrounding rooms. He stood firm, attempting to barricade the door, while his students clambered out of the windows.

His son, Joe Librescu, said in an interview from Tel Aviv that the professor e-mailed his wife to say that he had prevented the gunman getting into the classroom. However, the next e-mails received by the family were from students in the class informing them that Mr Librescu had not survived the shootings.

My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee, Joe Librescu said. Students started opening windows and jumping out.
Alec Calhoun, 20, from Waynesboro, Virginia, was one of the students to escape from Librescus class. When they heard the screams and gunshots, he and his classmates kicked through the screens on the second floor windows.

Mr Calhoun believes he was the last person to leave the room before the gunman struck. I mustve been the eighth or ninth person who jumped, and I think I was the last, he said. The two students behind him and his teacher blocking the door were shot according to Mr Calhoun.

Richard Mallieu, 23, from Virginia was another student watching an engineering slideshow given by Librescu when Cho Seung-Hui began shooting in the Norris Building. He admitted: "I don't think my teacher got out."

On the God Bless Virginia Tech blog set up by students while the massacre was under way, one poster wrote of Librescu: What a wonderful man, a survivor, and a hero. He will be missed!

Librescu was born in Romania only to be interned in a labour camp when it joined forces with Nazi Germany in the Second World War. He was then sent to a ghetto in the city of Focsani, although he avoided the fate of hundreds of thousands of other Romanian Jews killed by the collaborationist regime.

He later found work at a government aerospace company but his career was stymied in the 1970s because he refused to swear allegiance to the regime of the Communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu.

In 1977, according to his son, Israels then-prime minister, Menachem Begin, personally intervened with Ceausescu to get the family an emigration permit, and they left for Israel in 1978.

Professor Librescu had arrived in Virginia in 1985 for a sabbatical, but decided to stay on as a teacher.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

As could be expected, a number of foreign nations and their citiznes are editorializing within their expressions of condolences... kind of a "We're sooo sorry, but tsk tsk, it wouldn't have happened if you didn't allow people to own guns..."

World Reacts to U.S. School Shooting

Kind of takes the wind out of the expressions of sympathy, doesn't it?

Anyway, the article there tries to make some sort of comparison between the number of murders in the UK by fire arms with those committed in NYC by fire arms. Okay, fair enough, but for it to have contextual meaning, the comparison should also include the number of murders in the UK committed by means other than fire arms for the same period as well as for NYC and the total population sizes of the bodies -- err... bad choice of wording, isn't it? weirdface

-- make that "total size of the populations" being compared.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

[tinfoil hat] What if these shootings are part of a crafted master plan to get Americans to willingly give up gun ownership? What if the gunman was being controlled somehow? Is that even possible? The father of the Trolley Square shooter floated that idea... It could be just a small part of the campaign to get people to give up their liberties in exchange for security...[/tinfoil hat]

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The folks in Europe seem to think you can just walk into a supermarket and buy a gun. It doesn't work that way.

The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act requires criminal history background checks on people who apply to buy any type of firearm from federally licensed dealers.

The Federal Gun Control Act, 18 U.S.C. makes it unlawful for any licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or collector to transfer a long gun to a person younger than 18 years old or any other type of firearm to a person less than 21 years old.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibits certain people from possessing a firearm.
Persons under indictment for, or convicted of, any crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding on year;
Fugitives from justice;
Persons who are unlawful users of, or addicted to, any controlled substance;
Persons who have been declared by a court as mental defectives or have been committed to a mental institution;
Illegal aliens, or aliens who were admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
(Wasthe Virginia Tech shooter here under a student visa? If so he broke this law.)
Persons who have been dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces;
Persons who have renounced their United States citizenship;
Persons subject to certain types of restraining orders; and
Persons who have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

Virginia allows unlicensed open carry of a handgun that has a capacity of twenty rounds or less, unthreaded barrel and no collapsible stock. (Most handguns fall under this category). Open carry is defined as the gun's true nature is not hidden from general view. ( I assume he didn't have the concealed carry permit and his gun wasn't in plain view. Another firearms law he neglected to follow.)

Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP) holders are exempt from:

One gun a month rules
Rules regarding open carry firearm restrictions (see above)
General College Carry Restrictions Offical Attorney General Opinion
Gun Free School Zone act, CHP holders are allowed to have guns on school grounds in their personal vehicles as long as they stay in the car
Ban regarding firearms in VA General Assembly.
(Looks like he violated the law regarding carrying guns on College campuses and School Zones)

It looks like he violated a few firearms laws on the way to multiple homicide. Wonder why the laws didn't deter him? Oh, yea my bad, he was a murderer!!!!

I love it when the Euros get all smug about their firearms laws. As if the criminals suddenly are turning to peace, love, and harmony instead of an illegally obtained firearm. Give me a break. You take the guns away from the law abiding citizens and the criminals are just emboldened. They can rob your house and assault your wife without fear anymore that you might be able to protect yourself.

The violence will not end with banning of guns. Doctors kill more people than firearms every year in this country. Cars kill way more people than firearms. Lets ban those along with chain saws, knives, matches, screw drivers, hammers, baseball bats, doctors, legal prescription drugs, and anything else that can take a human life. Then we can all sit around the campfire together with Joan Baez and sing songs together.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Hey Cat, how about that web link to the story about how your relative saved his family's life from a criminal bent on killing them. I'm sure the outcome would have been different had they been unarmed while the criminal would certainly not followed the law.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I'm not so sure how appropriate it is to this thread.

I'll post it anyway. Arbi, if you think it is in poor taste (considering the subject matter of the thread), I understand if you need to yank the link.

http://www.savedbyagun.com/our_story.html

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Thanks Cat. I think it is appropriate in the context of the current national debate as to the cause of the tragic happenings at Virginia Tech. The media folks and celebs like Tokyo Rosie have turned a henous criminal act into a campaign against guns.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Every month the magazines published by both the National Rifle Association and the John Birch Society (The New American) contain one page with stories from various newspapers around the country about ordinary people using a gun to protect themselves or others. Between the two magazines, there are about 8-10 such stories reported each month.

Do we learn of all of these 8-10 incidents of protection of life and property each month from the mainstream media? Are these incidents publicized nationwide? Do the news agencies in Germany, France, Spain, etc. publish or sing praises of the persons who broke up criminal attacks with a gun of their own?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

lundbaek wrote:
Do the news agencies in Germany, France, Spain, etc. publish or sing praises of the persons who broke up criminal attacks with a gun of their own?

Probably not, but the German police aren't terribly fond of being embarrased when a couple of young foreign guests to a city who wear nametags and suits happen to chase down and catch a couple of punks on foot who brazenly attempt a snatching a purse from an old lady in broad daylight... wink