A few years ago, I had a discussion with a Chaplain of another faith about the events in the Garden of Eden.
The Chaplain asserted (quite adamantly) that if Adam and Eve had not transgressed, we would all be living in Paradise. He also had quite a diatribe about the weakness of Adam. His position is that Adam, having been taught by God in the Garden, should have followed the archetype of Christ and offered himself as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of Eve. A "true man of God" would do no less.
We know from the account in Genesis that Adam and Eve had been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. Adam couldn't do it without Eve and Eve couldn't do it without Adam. They had to stay together.
As our family read Moses 4 tonight, I was reminded of another commandment Adam understood. And the man said: The woman thou gavest me, and commandest that she should remain with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree and I did eat. v. 18. That plain and precious part of Adam's accounting to God is missing from Genesis 3:12.
How grateful I am for modern revelation that gives us the light and knowledge to understand Adam and Eve, our first parents, as an inspired and loving couple, who exercised agency in unity to accomplish their part in our Father's plan of happiness for all of his children. It's a perspective that makes the subsequent atonement all the more meaningful. It's a perspective that is quite opposed to the other views that paint our parents as willfully disobedient miscreants who ruined it for the rest of us. And, imo, it's the greatest love story ever told.
__________________
The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
I've heard some LDSs talk of the option that Adam could have prayed for guidance, i.e., the woman has partaken of the fruit, what would Thou have me do? Eve was apparently beguiled or tricked, but Adam was not tricked. He, thinking it through, made his decision.
I think Adam realized he was not in a position to atone for anyone's sins, however.
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Well, regardless of what all the different trains of thought by man can come up with to try and explain what happened, I am grateful for the little simple truth that was lost many centuries ago but that is revealed to us in the temple as to why Adam and Eve did what they did and the mindset they were in.
The Savior has said that unless we become as little children, we can in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.
__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Of course there is the old Jewish tradition that Lilleth was with Adam first and she partook and was cast out . So when Eve came along he had learned his lesson.
Of course had they not partaken of the fruit, they would never have had children.
See 2 Nephi 2:22...
Nor any of the animals either....
-- Edited by Mahonri at 21:31, 2007-04-09
__________________
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
I think had Adam prayed, to know what to do, that God probably would've explained to Adam in simple terms what must happen to Eve and what he needed to do if he desired to stay with her, and he would've partaken of the fruit anyhow...
The story of Lillith is interesting, though clearly not within realms of LDS theology.
I also like to think that one of the reasons why Adam could've had no children was the physical limitations of creating billions of souls that cannot die. It certainly wouldn't be much of a paradise, and further eventually one of his children would've partaken of the fruit, and then what? Clearly though, physical childbirth is one of the "complications" or consequences of the fall. ("I shall greatly multiply thy sorrows...")
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Well, Mahonri, there is actually another story about why Lilith left, it supposedly had to do with her refusal to submit to Adam sexually and a sexual position. Because she refused to submit to a submissive position, her on the bottom, she left Adam and went out on her own. In Jewish legend, she became the mother of various demons. Apparently, some Jews over the cribs on newborn baby boys will write Lilith no and Eve yes, or something like that to protect the boys from Lilith.
Some real fun Jewish folklore is the creation of an animated golem, mostly Kabala stuff I think.
The partaking of the fruit by Eve is interesting. I agree that Eve was beguiled, I also think she acted on her emotions and partook. I believe that possibly Adam and Eve had both discussed this, but that Eve acted on her own. I have heard some say that Eve had the bigger picture in mind, the problem is that she acted without her husband, basically forced Adam into a particular action. There was not a unity, but Adam was left with no real choice. It is interesting that God gave such a dichotomy to them. I think Eve's nature to be a mother and that Adam would desire to remain with her forced a transgression upon them in order to provide the catalyst for mortality and man's being.
__________________
Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever
Well, since we're talking about stories... This is from the collected works of Hugh Nibley, vol. 1, iirc. Eve partook of the fruit with Satan, first. Then she went and got Adam to partake. There was a reference to this from Joseph (step-father of Jesus) who alledgedly said something like, I am like unto Adam... meaning he came home and found his wife pregnant with another man.
eta- As for the notion that Eve saw the bigger picture which Adam failed to see, etc... I don't buy into that at all. Just my opinion, though.
-- Edited by Cocobeem at 12:15, 2007-04-12
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Clearly though, physical childbirth is one of the "complications" or consequences of the fall. ("I shall greatly multiply thy sorrows...") Ray, are you saying that Eve was punished for her part in the fall by being the one who must endure the pain of childbirth?
And all of this Jewish folklore crap about Lilith is a bucketload of ****
Kevin, would you care to rephrase or otherwise edit your comments above (immediately following Cocobeam and Bokbadok's first comments)? They are a little on the off-color side.
Valhalla was only explaining the folklore tale in his reference.
__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Nobody has a sense of humor anymore. Everything's gotta be serious, doom and gloom, world's coming to an end, we're all friggin scholars let's figure out the meaning of life, and solve everythign before the bomb hits us. Can't we just have fun sometimes?
No fair using words I don't know the meaning of...
It takes time to look things up in a dictionary.
(for those of you wondering like I was, misogynist in this context appears to mean hater of female sex... so the appropriate opposite to that is misandrist or hater of the male sex... whereas a misanthrope is an equal opportunity hater, not discriminating on gender)
__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Clearly though, physical childbirth is one of the "complications" or consequences of the fall. ("I shall greatly multiply thy sorrows...") Ray, are you saying that Eve was punished for her part in the fall by being the one who must endure the pain of childbirth?
Moses 4:22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children...
Notice that God did not say to Eve, "Because you partook of the fruit..." There is no evidence to support the idea that painful childbirth is a "punishment" given to Eve or her daughters in mortality. God simply states the natural consequence of the transition to mortality. Notice also that the pronouncement to Eve in Moses 4:22 is no longer part of the ceremony. My own belief is that because of where the pronouncement came in the dialogue, many saints committed the post hoc fallacy of resoning and wrongly concluded that painful childbirth is a punishment. Light and knowledge from our loving Father prompted our prophet to remove that reference.
At any rate, anyone who believes childbirth is a punishment doesn't understand God's plan. Children are the greatest blessing in life. The fact that women sacrifice so much to bring them into the world makes the gift even more amazing.
__________________
The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
Cocobeem wrote:eta- As for the notion that Eve saw the bigger picture which Adam failed to see, etc... I don't buy into that at all. Just my opinion, though.
People try to read way too much into the story of Adam and Eve. It's pretty simple.
God gave Adam and Eve opposing commandments so they could exercise agency. Adam and Eve, having been taught personally by God in the garden, used the light an knowledge they had received and made the choice that was in harmony with God's plan. Eve made her choice to enter mortality and bear children. Adam made his choice to stay with her--to love and support her and the children they would care for together. Each chose to be obedient to the plan. That's why we don't refer to it as a sin. To transgress means to go over or beyond a boundary or limit. Our loving Father planned for the transgression by foreordaining Jehovah as our Redeemer.
__________________
The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
I've often been taught the same thing that Roper said - that it was a transgression, not a sin. They had been told to be fruitful and multiply. They could not do so until Eve at of the fruit. As a result of Eve eating of the fruit, she was able to bear children. I don't know if it is a punishment so much as a blessing in disguise. Adam was told that the Earth would be cursed for his sake. The most important three words are "for his sake". By this tough and onerous task he was blessed. I think it was the same sort of thing for Eve.
__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
So your position, roper, is that Eve knew what she was doing all along? I thought she started to "figure things out" after her eyes were opened and she could piece things together... At the time I thought her basic motivation was that it was supposed to make her wise. I guess it's weird to me that she might have led in this whole deal.
And what the heck does her desire shall be to her husband mean?
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Folks, just a reminder to be discreet in the discussion of sacred things here. This is public. So, if it isn't in the verbage of the Pearl of Great Price or other scripture, perhaps referencing it is not appropriate for a public discussion.
Haven't crossed the line, but it seems to be close at times.
__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
If you were talking to me, here's the reference. Sorry, should've done that to begin with.
Moses 4:5 "And now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which I, the Lord God, had made. 6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world. 7 And he said unto the woman: Yea, hath God saidYe shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (And he spake by the mouth of the serpent.) 8 And the woman said unto the serpent: We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; 9 But of the fruit of the tree which thou beholdest in the midst of the garden, God hath saidYe shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 10 And the serpent said unto the woman: Ye shall not surely die; 11 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 12 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it became pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat. "
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Moses 4:22 "Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. "
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
coco, her desire to her husband means she will do whatever he wants with questions and will always seek to please him.
Ok, I think it means that she will submit to him in righteousness, that she will bind herself to him only, that he is the head of their family and her, now and forever, again in righteousness.
__________________
Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever
Gee Whiz people!!!!! I take one day off to go on a field trip with my daughter and I miss all the fireworks!!!! I'm just going to have to rent one of the Lilithfair DVDs and relive the magic! Right after that I'm going to give myself a good cry and become a good listener!!!
Cocobeem wrote:So your position, roper, is that Eve knew what she was doing all along? I thought she started to "figure things out" after her eyes were opened and she could piece things together... At the time I thought her basic motivation was that it was supposed to make her wise. I guess it's weird to me that she might have led in this whole deal.
My opinion here, Coco. We don't know how much Adam and Eve knew before they made the decision to enter mortality. The scriptures tell that they knew enough to at least understand that both physical and spiritual death would be part of the condition. And one cannot exercise agency without some degree of knowledge. I don't think they had a detailed understanding of the plan--that would preclude faith. But they knew enough to know that the decision was necessary, and at least what some of the resulting condition would be.
The symbolism is so rich: Trees and fruits and nakedness and serpents and flaming swords could have so many meanings, some of which are common gospel themes and some that maybe one only comes to understand through revelation in the temple.
And usually Nibley is just too "out there" for me.
__________________
The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
I'm with you, sales. I want to read the deletes! Okay, maybe not.
It just sort of blows my mind that Eve could know all that when she didn't freakin' know she was naked. No disrespect to Eve, but sometimes I get the feeling we over-compensate here so the women won't feel like they are inferior or something. I'd like to know the facts of the matter.
And the "he shall rule over thee" thing. What's that mean? Is it in general, men are dominant over women? (Think Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) It almost seems to me to be saying, "Since you couldn't keep your mouth shut at the first, you'll learn the hard way." "And Adam, this is what you get for listening to her!"
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
I'm with you, sales. I want to read the deletes! Okay, maybe not.
It just sort of blows my mind that Eve could know all that when she didn't freakin' know she was naked. No disrespect to Eve, but sometimes I get the feeling we over-compensate here so the women won't feel like they are inferior or something. I'd like to know the facts of the matter.
And the "he shall rule over thee" thing. What's that mean? Is it in general, men are dominant over women? (Think Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) It almost seems to me to be saying, "Since you couldn't keep your mouth shut at the first, you'll learn the hard way." "And Adam, this is what you get for listening to her!"
My personal opinion is that Eve knew she was naked, it just didn't bother her before she partook of the fruit. Does a small child care when he's running around naked with his parents chasing after him? He thinks it's great fun. Adam and Eve might not have cared because the hormones probably weren't raging yet.
And Coco, the concept of leadership in the church differs markedly from that in the middle east. In the church, the leader is everyone's servant (or should be; I realize that the ideal is never fully obtained on this Earth). In the middle east, being a leader means being a tyrant.
__________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
And remember that "nakedness" could be entirely symbolic--they were pure and innocent before God and had no reason to hide their desires, thoughts, words, actions, etc. In essence they were naked before him. Once they transgressed, they knew that their disobedience would be exposed to the light and knowledge of God, and so felt the need to try and cover up. Just my thoughts here. They made aprons to cover themselves (Moses 4:13) We also know from D&C 121 that power and priesthood cannot be used to cover sins (vs. 36-37.)
The temple is rich with symbols. Everything is layered with meaning to lead us line upon line, precept upon precept, until we come to a full knowledge. So many times, I've thought that I understand what a symbol or phrase or covenant means, and then on a subsequent visit a new insight expands or deepens that understanding.
-- Edited by Roper at 19:01, 2007-04-14
__________________
The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
they didn't even feel the need to cover up after partaking of the fruit, until Satan told them they were naked and suggested that they needed to cover up.
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
I think we're back on track now, though. Aren't we?
"And Coco, the concept of leadership in the church differs markedly from that in the middle east. In the church, the leader is everyone's servant (or should be; I realize that the ideal is never fully obtained on this Earth). In the middle east, being a leader means being a tyrant."
I'm not sure how we got on the leadership angle, but doesn't the promise/punishment apply to mankind at large? I mean, there's weeds everywhere and men work to survive. Women give birth the same way, whether they're middle eastern or LDS Utahns. Maybe these things are not as applicable nowadays. I mean, I've had 5 kids all with epidurals and there wasn't much sorrow involved.
Interesting comment by roper about the nakedness. They were making aprons to cover themselves and then got the coats of skins... but the priesthood cannot cover sins... that is interesting... Yes, there are lots of layers here. It's like a favorite book that you're reading and you know it will never end.
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
No disrespect to Eve, but sometimes I get the feeling we over-compensate here so the women won't feel like they are inferior or something. I'd like to know the facts of the matter.
