Firearms as part of preparedness

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Firearms as part of preparedness

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Ditto! In a crisis situation there are no police there to help you. You are on your own. That's all I'm saying.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

There was a round and round about this on another forum. I believe it's the smart thing to do. Some people don't.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Here are my thoughts on firearms:

http://www.rogmo.com/controversial.html

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

There are other ways to protect your family besides firearms.

What I hope people understand are these things:

1) If you are going to have a firearm, you must ensure that you are psychologically prepared to take the life of another person--a child of God, a brother or sister. That is the sole purpose of a weapon--to take life. If you are not absolutely positive that you can pull the trigger and take a life, don't get a firearm.

2) If you are going to have a firearm, you must ensure that you are an accomplished user. Practice with it until you can reliably hit center-of-mass on silhouettes five out of six times. Know how to field strip, clean, and reassemble your weapon. Know how to load and reload in total darkness (practice blindfolded.) Your life will depend on those skills.

Bottom line--if you're going to have a firearm, you must learn to think about it like law enforcement or military does. If the first time you shoot is when your family is being attacked, you will probably be killed. A firearm is not a good idea for everyone--there are other ways to protect your family.

Lastly, I'm not sure I agree completely with this statement:

"To stand idly by while murderers commit murder, when protecting their victims is within your power, is not "pacifism," it's either cowardice or arrogance. My righteousness is worth more than your life, such "pacifists" say."

I suppose Alma and Amulek were either cowards or arrogant.

-- Edited by Roper at 22:15, 2007-03-27

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Roper wrote:

I suppose Alma and Amulek were either cowards or arrogant.

Or maybe they had some spiritual prompting that dicatated to them a different course of action. I think your comment there is apples to oranges.

I agreed with the rest of your post.

-- Edited by mirkwood at 22:23, 2007-03-27

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

And who's to say others might not be prompted in the same way? I think it's self-righteous to decide on a way of defending one's family and then pre-judge others and label them cowards or arrogant who may choose differently.

What-if Scenario: A string of tornados destroys much of Fort Worth. Three nights later, I wake up to the sound of shattering glass. My 15 y.o. son runs to the sunroom (where we keep our food storage) and two guys are stealing our stuff. One takes to my son with a crowbar. Now I'm fully prepared to put three or four rounds from my Sig 229 into each of the perps. Maybe the Spirit constrains me to stop. One perp takes one last swing with the crowbar, connects with my son's head, then they both run into the darkness. My son dies from a crushed skull.

Am I a coward? Am I arrogant?

We can't judge. And pre-judging and calling names only serves to gratify our pride and vain ambitions.

eta: I recently acquired the Sig. I thought the 9mm Beretta I shot in the AF was a mighty fine handgun, and I really came to like the DA/SA switch on the second round. I'm really liking the Sig so far. From what I remember from shooting the 9, the Sig with the 40 S&W round feels about the same recoil.

maybe we need a firearms forum...

-- Edited by Roper at 23:06, 2007-03-27

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'm going to teach my kids to look before they go running into a sun room.... and if someone is there that they don't know, then go the other direction.

If they want it that badly they can have it. I suppose I could pull out my 30/40Krag and deer rifle them to death and what purpose would it serve?

This life is but a tiny blip on the timeline of eternity I wouldn't want to mar it with killing someone. I suppose like Nephi, if the Lord told me to do it, I would but otherwise... forget it.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I think it goes without saying that we will follow the Spirit when so prompted. I'm assuming when you say "We can't judge" that refers to knowing what goes on in someone else's mind, when another person has had sufficient prompting of the Spirit to follow some course of action. I agree we need to be mentally prepared to "go there" and there are probably some people who are best left without firearms. Like the people who ran out of their chemical balancers yesterday.

And the "child of God" thing ... I don't know. You could just as easily say they are a child of hell or a child of Satan. Christ himself called the Pharisees children of Satan. Wow, what a way to make friends and influence people. There are conditions to being born of the Spirit, or becoming children of God. John 8:41-44-- "Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do."

Mosiah 16:5 "But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God."

And here's the part about Alma and Amulek that was referred to--

Alma 14:9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.
10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.
11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.
12 Now Amulek said unto Alma: Behold, perhaps they will burn us also.
13 And Alma said: Be it according to the will of the Lord. But, behold, our work is not finished; therefore they burn us not.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Roper I think you have taken OSC's statement (which I used and agreed with) out of context. The way I took the comment was not about someone who has a prompting to behave differently. I had one at work one night and a man is still alive because I felt I should not pull the trigger even though he had picked up a gun off the seat of the car during a traffic stop I had made. I think the mentality is more the knee jerk reaction you usually get from the anti gun crowd or those who have never taken the time to think through the concept of self defense and then decide what is right for them. If they took the time, they may just find the answer is different then they believe....but maybe not.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Have modernprophets made firearms a part of the basic food storage requirements?

--Ray

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Have they told you not to?

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray,

I've never heard (nor read) a prophet, seer or revelator talk about firearms that way.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Among other quotes is this one:

"There is wisdom in having on hand a year's supply of food, clothing and fuel (if possible), and in being prepared to defend our families and our possessions and to take care of ourselves. I believe a man should prepare for the worst while working for the best." Ezra Taft Benson, The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson pg 264

While not an outright approval of firearms, it suggests Ray's outright dismissal may not be entirely accurate.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Capt. Moroni had a sword, Joseph Smith used a pistol in his last stand, even Christ said to sell a cloak and buy a sword.
I believe John Taylor also mentioned something about being able to defend, and I think the scriptures lay out a man's duty to protect, provide, and defend.

Firearms are absolutely a required part of preparedness, I doubt there were any pioneers that crossed the plains without one.

Part of the point in having them is to act as a deterrent, most criminals want weak and helpless victims. Criminals are like predators that will go for the weaker animals. It is rare for lions to take on a healthy male cape buffalo, but are more apt to go after a young or weaker one. They don't want to get hurt. I think of the weapon first as the rattle on a rattlesnake, serve as a warning, but if you get too close, I will bite.

I have said, and not really in jest, that if I and my family and another family were out because of something and bad guys wanted us, who would they go after? Me, armed with military weapons and proficiency, my armed sons, my armed wife, or the church member who went with "the Lord will take care of me without me having to do anything myself" and has no weapon, a wife and daughters and food. Guess who the bad guys will go after!

I was a criminal defense attorney, and guess what, I never had a healthy male as a victim, or really any other attorneys. The vast majority of victims are women, elderly, and children. More often than not, there is often a look in the eye of someone who knows how to take care of themselves, and these bad guys know it.

A firearm is a great equalizer, you can give an elderly lady a firearm and she could take on a large, strong male. Mindset is the key. The saying goes, God made men, Sam Colt made them equal. (Colt developed the revolver.)

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

There was a family in our ward a few years back that were firearms owners. The husband told me that when he first got married he taught his wife how to use a firearm. When he was at work one night a crazed criminal kicked in their apartment door. She immediately went and got a rifle and pointed it right at the thug and yelled at him to get out or she would shoot him. The guy took off running. Many crimes like this are prevented without a shot being fired. Kind of the Big Stick idea espoused by Roosevelt. Firearms are the great equalizer. The fastest growing segment of firearms owners are females. Why? Because women have a greater risk of being the victim of violence. They tend to be smaller and less strong then males. Most criminals go after the weak.

Firearms training is always a must, especially if you are unfamiliar with firearms. Some gunstores actually will offer classes. Our local Junior College had a class. My father made sure that each of us kids, including my sisters took hunters safety classes, got a hunting license, and learned how to use a weapon. When my sister had to walk alone in the dark in an area where there had been mountain lion sightings a few years back, she was packing heat. She knew how to use it and was confident that she could in that situation.

Hey Roper, what model Sig do you have? I've wanted to get one for years do to the reputation of the brand. The DA/SA is a nice feature. Walther originally had that feature PPs back in WWII which was way ahead of it's time. I'm kind of old school though and possibley thinking about picking up a Ruger Vaquero in 45LC. I've waffled back and forth between the Sig in 40 S&W and the Vaquero.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Sales, Glock is the only way to go, lethal Tupperware. They are combat weapons, simple point and click interface, reliable, and cheaper than a Sig.

arbilad · Head Chef

All I can say is that it would take a very strong prompting to get me to not shoot someone who was attacking my wife or kids. I would forebear, if prompted. But my immediate reaction would be to send him to meet his Maker. And if I'm later arrested for it, you know the saying: better to be judged by 12 than carried out by six.
And Ray, they may not tell you to get a year's supply of "food, clothing, fuel and ammunition." But there is nothing against it. Sure, we're told to not trust in the arm of flesh. But depending on God means doing as much as you can yourself first. Nephi was told to take Laban's sword with him, and it was useful to him later in keeping his descendants from being wiped out before they even got started. It wasn't the sword that kept them alive, it was the Lord. But the Lord had him fashion swords so that they could do His will.
And Roper, my firearms instructor (a homicide detective) had us contemplate how we would feel if we actually took a human life. He described to us in detail the feelings we'd have afterwards. Even if done in self-defense, killing a human being is something you'll give yourself grief over. So no, I'm not eager to ever be in a situation like that. I hope it never happens, But I am prepared if it does.

arbilad · Head Chef

I like 1911s, by the way.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

arbilad wrote:

I like 1911s, by the way.

What a great classic! There are some really nice 1911 clones out there. Kimber makes a really nice one.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I have the 229 in 40 S&W. Shoots nice tight groupings. It's classified as a compact, but it's still pretty large and heavy. The stainless steel slide helps with the recoil but adds several ounces. Probably not a good choice for concealed carry. And it was expensive, even used. However, I really like shooting it, and that's important because it keeps me proficient. And field stripping is a breeze.

I think there are people out there, like Alma and Amulek, like Nephi, like Enoch, who, through Priesthood power and faith, could stop violence, could shock people, could move mountains to protect loved ones. I'm probably not one of them. Yet.

I think tactical deception can be really effective--structure my life so that nothing appears interesting enough for criminals to bother with.

I think defensive martial arts like Akido can be effective.

I know praying for daily protection is effective.

Firearms are not the only way. And probably not the best choice for a lot of people.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Tactical deception... sweet!

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

There is a forum which has a lot of discussion about guns and use of same.
http://p198.ezboard.com/bzionscamp

An alternative to a gun in certain circumstances might be household ammonia in a small nasal spray bottle with the tube inside removed so it squirts a stream.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

lund...

I went to your site and shucks... those folks REALLY LIKE GUNS. When things get tough I want some of them as my next door neighbors.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

The reason I asked the question is that I don't know the first thing about firearms. I don't begrudge anyone their desire to own one, but it has not been a priority in my life, and many of you think it's AS important to possess, as say the food supply itself. So I'm curious just what type of a commandment is this? Is it a commandment of men or a commandment directly from God. And if it is from God, where has it been made clear?

I don't buy that just because they're not talking about it, we're just supposed to know it.

I know many men who love firearms, and I'm happy for them. But I just don't care one way or the other. I suppose some of you may even think I'm not a sufficient "provider, or I'm neglecting my priesthood duties if I don't have a weapon that kills.

We can quote scriptures at each other all we want, but when Enoch moved mountains and the City of Zion was made Great and Terrible, I missed the part where it was because of their bunker-busting nukes.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

You took the words right out of my mouth, Ray.

I don't begrudge anyone who wants to own firearms when it is done prudently and for the right reasons. I don't feel that the right to own them should be removed either. But, I don't think owning firearms has been included in the list we have been told is essential for our preparedness. Sometimes, the food storage and like is for a micro personal / family emergency, and not the macro collapse of infrastructure and society or an extended length natural disaster.

If we as a family have need to use what has been stored for emergency due to loss of job or something like that, the hundreds of dollars spent on firearms, ammunition, and gunsafe are not gonna do me much good if I'm living in the city where I can't use them to hunt game or slaughter livestock to feed the family. It would be more prudent to have used those funds in storing up more foodstuffs.

Most Church members do not live in rural areas where the tools would be useful in such a situation. My dad was raised on a farm, and I think the family had a gun or two back then, and he was an army officer for a few years, but I was not raised around firearms and we weren't hunters, my only exposure to them was through Scouts. They were fun to shoot, but even as a teen, I felt it would be an incredibly expensive hobby even if my parents agreed to it and having any in the house.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

It's not a commandment at all. In fact, I don't think preparedness itself is technically a "commandment"... confused

they don't ask you that as part of the temple rec. questions. Getting out of debt is probably not technically a commandment, either...

If you, rayb, don't feel inclined to have firearms, don't worry about it. If it's playing on your mind and you can't shake the thought, maybe that means something. If you're waiting for a specific directive, that's the wrong mindset for a few reasons. Just my thoughts. smile

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I hope none of my posts came across as saying to someone you have to have a firearm or you are somehow in violation of a commandment. I live in an area where it doesn't snow so I don't feel the need to have snow boots in my emergency preparedness stuff. If I was in Alaska though it might be different. If you live in the desert away from natural water sources, a large selection of fishing gear might not do much for you in an emergency situation but if you lived in the Pacific North West you would probably see it as a must have. Also, I would never endorse someone owning a gun that doesn't feel comfortable shooting one and/or doesn't know how to use one.

Basically, as an emergency tool a firearm can serve two purposes. The first is to take animals for food. If you live in New York city, this probably won't help although with all those pigeons a slingshot could do the same thing. A person could also use a modern bow or crossbow and fill this same purpose. The second purpose is defense of yourself, family, friends, and property such as in a Hurican Katrina situation when the law enforcement is completely wiped out. Living in California and seeing the riots on TV and being in southern California as the National Guard was flying overhead and seeing the smoke as the city smoldered, I think this is pretty important. Maybe for you it isn't. It's not my place to judge you. I think what Cat said is important though that the right to own them shouldn't be removed.

I do think it is a good idea to be familiar with firearms, how they operate, and basic firearms safety even if you do not own one and have no plans of owning one in the future. With as many firearms as we have in the U.S. you may have the chance to come in contact with one in the future and safe firearms handling could be imperative then.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

That is probably sound advice about everyone becoming familiar with basic use and operation of the tool, Jason.

So, any EQs up for this sort of practical EQ activity? Or how about the RS holding it for one of their enrichment activities?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cat Herder wrote:

That is probably sound advice about everyone becoming familiar with basic use and operation of the tool, Jason.

So, any EQs up for this sort of practical EQ activity? Or how about the RS holding it for one of their enrichment activities?

Actually our EQ and HP have had activities at the range. It's not a bad idea for an activity.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

I cracked a joke in sunday school last week about my upcoming lesson being a firearms class in the big field next to the church. One sister promptly said, "I can pass that class". :)

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I think owning a firearm and knowing how to use it is imperative as a part of our emergency preparedness, whether it is home defense, hunting, bugging out defense, or just a way of saying "I can fight back."

Owning a firearm does not have to be an expensive thing. A decent rifle (SKS) and 500 rounds can be had for about $200. A very durable weapon that can work for hunting, defense, and is cheap to shoot. Or an inexpensive shotgun, Mossberg 500, about $200. Or a Mosin Nagant and 1,000 rounds for about $130. Or a Makarov pistol for about $175 to $225, ammo is cheap. Or a used police service revolver.

It can be done cheaply and none of those firearms listed above is cheap, don't confuse inexpensive with cheap. They are very user friendly were deliberately designed that way and durable for conscripts. I love my SKS and my Mossy 500. I need a Mosin Nagant as well.

It can be done, one does not need to have something extensive. All my gear, including my sidearm and my primary weapon would total about $1500+ just in weapons and gear for those weapons, just for my 72 hour kit. This is not necessary for everyone, just what works for me.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I figure I can still hold out for 5 years... my oldest daughter turns eleven in November.

--Ray