Clinton: Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy Is Real

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Clinton: Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy Is Real

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Yea, the conspiracy is to win. They all do. That's why I endorse neutering for politicians. That and more cowbell!

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Politicians are people too!

Well, some of them. Not sure about Hillary.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

There's no conspiracy... cuz neither the republicans nor the democrats are that organized... they're all a bunch of bickering nitwits... (they should join us in Bountiful!)

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Them's conspiracy wurdz!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Conspiracy deniers obviously have a conspiracy to deny conspiracies... what's more, I'm a conspiracy denier denying the conspiracy denying conspiracy, which makes me doubly suspect of conspiracy. It's a downright conspiratorial conspiracy!!!

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

yup that's why we like each other.... thread train wrecks just waiting to happen.

arbilad · Head Chef

That conspiracies exist is a matter of fact. The only discussion can be how many and how bad have they gotten.
As proof that conspiracies are a fact, the 9/11 hijackers didn't wake up that day and independently of each other decide to take over airplanes. They had a conspiracy amongst themselves to do so.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Do you think there's a difference between a secret combination and a conspiracy?

I could make up conspiracy theories all day long about things... but it doesn't make them so... and that's what most conpiracy theories are... generally they're about denying the most plausible solutions because they leave one with uneasiness or the reasons would be unpopular.

Many conspiracy theories are simply selfishness, scapegoats rooted in an unwillingness to work civilly with one's fellow man to find solutions that both parties can live with... Global warming comes to mind... :)

--Ray

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

Are you trying to bait me? ;0? I thought it was sickening that President Clinton was being tried for crimes of this nature during his term as President. If you want to give some dignity to the office. you should not do this during an adminstration. I am not saying a President is a above the law, but I think they need to be able to go about the business of running the country. There are crimes that would be serious enough to try while someone is President. I really think the world would be a better place if we did not know what went on during that time. On the plus side, I had a friend whose daughter did not know who the President was while Clinton was still in Office. This was after the scandal. Her mom criticized the teacher saying that her middle school daughter should know this as her younger nephew did. My thinking was that a parent could take a little initiative and let a child know. But I found it refreshing and good that she did not know of President Clinton at that juncture. It is hard to keep innocence and politics. As to whether people on the left due equal injustices, there probably is a case for the fact that they do.

arbilad · Head Chef

There was sufficient reason to impeach Clinton from office, even if you ignore everything else he did. It wasn't just an affair. He lied, under oath, about the affair. That was the actual crime that they impeached him for. Other people, such as federal judges, had been impeached for the crime of lying while under oath. It wasn't anything new.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Of course there's a conspiracy. Duh.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

At the time I remember being outraged by Clinton's behavior. Though now that I think back, I think it has opened the gate to the opposition of the Bush administration's behavior... and that's unfortunate.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I am not saying a President is a above the law, but I think they need to be able to go about the business of running the country.
No baiting. If you are thinking that a sitting President should simply be left alone when there has been more than just rumors or allegations but actual evidence of improper and potentially illegal activities going on before or while he is president, then that is indeed implying that he is above the law. If a President or elected official behaves within the law, then there is no reason the individual shouldn't be able to actuall go about the business they were elected to.

And, the fact that he lied under oath is a crime. Clinton got off too easy. And yes, I agree with you Ray, most of the hatred towards the GW Bush Presidency and administration has been nothing more than the angry vendetta the Democrats and those who want to put the blame for poster boy Bill showing himself to be the scumbucket he is on others (reference vast right wing conspiracy) rather than accept the consequences for their adherence and promotion of moral relativism.

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

Do you think there's a difference between a secret combination and a conspiracy?

I could make up conspiracy theories all day long about things... but it doesn't make them so... and that's what most conpiracy theories are... generally they're about denying the most plausible solutions because they leave one with uneasiness or the reasons would be unpopular.

Many conspiracy theories are simply selfishness, scapegoats rooted in an unwillingness to work civilly with one's fellow man to find solutions that both parties can live with... Global warming comes to mind... :)

--Ray

I think that secret combinations are a type of conspiracy. After all, you couldn't have a secret combination if you didn't conspire together to do something. But a conspiracy is not necessarily a secret combination. Cat and I could conspire together to spike your koolaid with sedatives, for instance, and while it would be a conspiracy, it wouldn't be a secret combination.
I could make up religions all day long, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a true one. People make up religions for all sorts of bad and evil reasons, just like people make up conspiracy theories for bad reasons. But that doesn't change that there are conspiracy facts.
And those of us who believe in conspiracies are used to being regarded as kooks. When that company (Digital Angel, I think) came up with implantable RFID chips, they flatly denounced even the vaguest possibility that humans would ever be implanted with them. Now it's slowly catching on. Even as long as 10 years ago people were predicting national ID cards and being laughed at. Now they'll be implemented this year. You can argue all you want about whether those two things are good or not, but the fact that "conspiracy theorists" predicted them a while ago says something, I think.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Cat and I could conspire together to spike your koolaid with sedatives,
Well, it isn't secret now that you've gone and made our secret works all public domain knowledge...

In my book, here is how I differentiate the two: secret combinations are the organizations; conspiracy is the goal or agenda of a group, be it a secret or "open" group, to gain power or directly influence power in a manner that is contrary to the established pattern of rule by law.

The X-files and Billary have been most helpful in adding a certain level of dehumanization to the whole thing by simply desensitizing people to the paranoia that should be associated with the too frequent use of the term conspiracy in socio-politic circles.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Heh. This gives me an idea for a joke...

Q. Why did the Volleyball player smash a filled punchbowl all over the gymnasium floor?

A. Because he was trying to spike the punch.

--Ray

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

Ray, I like that one!

Catherder, I was joking about the baiting me part being as I am the new Democrat on board. I think a huge objection of mine to the whole thing is that I am a prude. Of course, it is the media that goes wall to wall with things. I know that saying that a President is not above the law of the land and saying that certain offences should not be brought to court may seem to contradict itself. I believe that people in high offices are immune from such things as parking tickets. I heard the word Executive Privilege as I was coming downstairs. I am not sure where to draw the line. I do think we need to consider the dignity of the office. Crimes of treason or any violent act or felonies would be necessary to bring forth even while a person is prision. Perjury is a seriouos crime, but I do not feel the original trial should have been taking place while he was in office. Or maybe it was before he was in office when it all started for all I know.

My opinions on this matter do not mean that I condone the actions of President Clinton.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I draw the line at a leader not asking or requiring those who report to him to do that which he isn't prepared to do himself. Also, a leader should be expected to abide by the same rules and laws that those who are under him are subject to.

In other words, there is not (and should not be) one set of rules and laws for the peons, serfs, men in the trench and another for the executives, nobility, or officer corp. If anything, the higher up one is, it is simply a cumulative effect with regards to rules / laws.

Any office is only as dignified as the individual who holds it. If the person holding the office does not act accordingly, they are the one who brings shame to it. The office is not and should not be used as a shield.

In this respect, I think there are far too many on both sides of the aisle who don't get it...

arbilad · Head Chef

Well, if I remember the Constitution correctly (and I may just be talking out of an orifice lower than my mouth), congressmen cannot be arrested on the way to or from Congress. That's to prevent political rivals from arranging to have them arrested so they won't be there for an important vote.
But in general Cat is right; they should be held to the same rules that we are. When it mentions the impeachment procedure in the Constitution, it mentions "high crimes and misdemeanors". A misdemeanor is not a very serious crime. If it were proved that Bush were guilty of hitting his daughters (misdemeanor child abuse), I'd say go ahead and impeach him.
Clinton lied about a fairly serious case, to avoid justice for a serious crime. He committed other crimes that were even worse, such as the rape of Juanita Broderick. I do not think that a leader should be immune from prosecution for such crimes. The lives of several women were ruined, and even if you make the argument that he should only be impeached for crimes that happened while he was president, I think that lying under oath to prevent such a woman from getting justice is a horrible enough crime to impeach for.

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I want to make it clear that I do consider rape a very serious crime and one that a President could be tried for in office if there is enough evidence to bring forth for trial.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

The crimes of which Bill Clinton was accused at that time provided a great smoke screen for what I consider his treasonous actions generally referred to as China Gate. And I suspect Monica Gate and the other indescretions of which he was accused were played up to help generate that smoke screen.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

What he gave away to China and North Korea should be considered TREASON! And the Dems still love him... and now there are reports that say he's been having many extramarital affairs while his wife's been in Washington and most folks just say, "Good for him". We are living in a sick world.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

As an engineer for many years in the defense industry (jet engines), I was well aware of President Bush's continuation of the Clinton policy of giving US companies that are still transferring dual use technology to Russia and China special exemptions from Commerce Department regulations banning export of military technology, thus allowing continued transfer of sensitive militarily useful technology and material to Russia and China. It is a sell-out of our technological advantages to an avowed enemy which I have witnessed.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

And that makes me even more sick... that Bush wouldn't put an end to a policy that could put an end to all of us. God needs to start preaching his sermons soon. I just hope that members of the Church are ready.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Hillary knew what Bill was before she married him. She has never tried to stop his cheating and in fact has helped cover it up. Theirs is a marriage of convenience with power as the main goal. What's strange to me is that people continue to be surprised at his infidelity.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Like my daddy always said, "Follow the $$$$". It's always about money!!!!!!!! Sell it to china because we can make $$$$ and the companies will donate more $$$$ to our campaigns which we can pay to our spouses and children as employees of the campaign. Yea for $$$$$$$$$!!!

-- Edited by salesortonscom at 12:11, 2007-03-19

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Tee hee.

-- Edited by Euphrasie at 14:43, 2007-03-19