Confession is a part of the repentance process. Is it possible that the repentance process brings about actual phyiscal healing as well as spiritual healing?

--Ray

Okay. Is there an assumption that depression, and particularly my depression, is caused by a sin I need to repent of? Roper's post seems to link the two together. Unless by "repentance" means something other than the usual definition.

Please help me understand what you are saying.

In other words, sin is a sufficient cause for depression, but it isn't a necessary one? That is, if you sin, that can certainly cause depression. But the fact that you are depressed does not necessarily indicate sin? That sounds about right.

bokbadok wrote:

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Are the "you's" in that last sentence directed at me, Arbi?

Okay, Roper, I suspected that's what you meant... I just needed it clarified.

Except I never thought about fear as a sin per se before. Including anything that separates me from God as a sin certainly amplifies the list, doesn't it?

if fear is a sin, how do I repent of that? Stop being afraid? Well Duh. If I could do that I wouldn't be depressed! (at least that is the theory. Only time will tell if I'm guessing right)

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 Actually I was using the generic "you".

bokbadok wrote:

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Including anything that separates me from God as a sin certainly amplifies the list, doesn't it?

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And it certainly amplifies my understanding of the atonement.

Admit it Cat. You're scared of me. :)

I'm scared of offending you. You might take your chicken and cross the road... and that would make me weep like a little baby.

--Ray

Roper, you are a pillar of wisdom.

I have been pondering the whole fear = sin idea, and I really think you are right. I know you are right.

I turned to D&C 121:34-38, and substituted "fears" for the word "sins" in v. 37:

34. And why are they not chosen?

35. Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson--

37. "...when we undertake to cover our [fears], or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition...behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved...

38. Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God."

Suddenly, after a lifetime of reading this scripture, this passage is about only ME. I care so much about the approval of the people around me, and am too proud to admit my weaknesses, and so I hide my real self (fears and sins) from them and me. And then I wonder why I don't feel the Spirit or get answers to my prayers?

Duh.

This is truly an epiphany for me.

Thank you thank you thank you for helping me see the truth. You are now on my list of most favorite people. It's a short list.

Ha Ha... you're right, you were on my "Frankly Honest Even if it Hurts Me" list after that, which is the list I pull from when adding to my "Favorite People" list.

I had to give up my "Hit List" when I retired from the Silly Serpent Ninja clan.

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-- Edited by Roper on Sunday 3rd of July 2011 05:48:49 PM

Good points there Mahonri.

Sometimes there are things that despite chemical imbalances some of us can do to help pull ourselves up by the bootstraps (with The Lord's help of course) and just carry on. I think that can help to keep the downward spiral from continuing when the imbalance may be caused by external stressors initially. In this respect, it is probably wise for all of us to learn and understand what things are within our control and when to recognize the signs.

In the examples of the great men you mentioned, The Lord didn't let them use their respective "thorns in the side" as an excuse for not doing their jobs. He told them here is the expectation, I'll be with you to help you, so do what I say, go to, and I'll take care of the rest.

If someone is in such denial there is a problem with depression, they will not see a need to seek professional help, they will not see the benefit in taking medication to counter the imbalance, and they will ultimately not get on even keel and be healed where possible. And that is perhaps the highest example of self-deception... the ole 'There's nothing wrong' attitude when others around them can clearly sense something is the matter.

I don't think there will be any that say one way or the other.  There will be scriptures that may point towards it, but it is probably good to remember depression (whether acute or clinical) was not a medical diagnosis back in those days.  Anecdotal interpretation of context at best, but don't summarily reject it.  Consider it.

deleted

-- Edited by Roper on Sunday 3rd of July 2011 05:49:59 PM

Ray, you speak like you know a lot of people who struggle with depression. Exactly how "often" have you observed this? Are you speaking about yourself or other family members with whose illnesses you are very familiar?

Roper wrote:

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Cat Herder wrote:

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Sometimes there are things that despite chemical imbalances some of us can do to help pull ourselves up by the bootstraps (with The Lord's help of course) and just carry on.

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In some cases, I think you're right, Cat.  But we should be careful in our characterization of  depression and other mental illness.  Would you say to someone with a chronic illness like rheumatoid arthritis, "Well, you just need to pull yourself up by the bootstraps."  Mental illnesses are illnesses and need to be treated as such.

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Oh, no doubt.  Mental illnesses are indeed illnesses, even if it is just acute depression.  I mention what I do simply from a perspective that even within the darkness of mental illness, The Lord does extend things to individuals which if grabbed hold of can help one pull themselves up a little, or at least feel like they are able to keep from slipping further into the abyss.  I hope it didn't sound like I was saying all people need to do is "get over it".  It was meant in the sense of pointing to a true beacon of hope where they can sense a bit of control over some aspect of their situation.  For any individual who suffers a mental illness to deny this -- how did Elder Bednar refer to it a couple years ago, a tender mercy? --  is perhaps the worst self-deception they can be fooled into believing.

So I finally had time to read and join this discussion. I find it quite interesting. As I mentioned on another thread, I suffered from pretty bad depression in high school. Here are a few things that I have learned from my bout of depression (and I still slip back into old ways sometimes, and so I'm still learning)

When I am depressed I allowed myself to anger over small things
When I am depressed I can never be good enough (or so I tell myself)
When I am depressed no one can help me
When I am depressed everyone is out to get me, even though they say they are there for me.
When I am depressed there is no good in the world.

Once I was able to point out a few of the things that really made me feel depressed, I prayed for help in opening my eyes. I remember one day I was walking behind a group of my friends feeling sorry for myself, and one friend was like "Megan! Why are you walking behind us?!" It was the answer to a prayer, and I knew that my friends really cared about me, and even more so, I knew that my Savior loves me. (I have trouble with verb tenses...at that time I knew that he loved me, but I also still know that he loves me...how should I properly say that? His love is not in the past).

Also, my anger does a really good job of bringing on depression. Maybe it's just my red-headed Irish temper, but when I allow myself to become angry, I'm more likely to feel depressed. This is a lot harder to fight, because when something upsets me, I'm upset. I have had to learn to have a different perspective toward situations that may anger me. I try to be understanding, and understand where the other person comes from. Instead of having road rage and being angry that someone cut me off, I can see that they were about to miss their turn if they didn't, and they may not be as familiar with the roads as I am. Or, as was much more of the case, when my mother was seemingly too strict and angry at me to love me, I just needed to look at the fact that the reason she was being so strict and angry when I did something seemingly small wrong, at the fact that both of her sisters have "gone astray" and are not good members of the church anymore. She was really just not wanting me to fall away, and since I realized that I can see more where things I did made her sad, and her reaction to being sad was what I saw as hatred and anger. Since I realized this I have been able to make amends...I haven't said anything, but things are better between us because I do my best to let her know I'm trying to do what's right. Also, taking on the perspective that I can use any situation that comes along as an opportunity to grow and become a better version of myself helps.

Another thing is that I get very negative sometimes, and it's a disease. The negative thoughts don't stop, and then I get mad at myself for being negative, and that's just another thing that's wrong with me. These moods are the hardest for me to deal with, and sometimes I just need to write out all of my thoughts in a journal I save for such entries, pray, and cry myself to sleep. In the morning I'm better.

I obviously am not completely cured of my depression because I fall back into it. Just a couple weeks ago I had a "panic attack" which is what I call it when I have a sudden onslaught of depression and just can't function normally. Avoiding the situations that stem panic attacks would mean that I would have to drop out of school because homework is usually what brings them on. I have to find a way to deal with it better. One thing I learned this semester is that if I am having particular trouble with a homework assignment, instead of panicking and thinking about how stupid I am and how I don't even belong in college, if I pray for help in understanding what I am learning, the Spirit comes and helps me, and the panic flees away.

I've learned to replace my fear of inadequacy with serving others and being there for them. I figure if I really am inadequate, then I better do something that will make me worthwhile, and trying to be more charitable like the Savior, and allowing myself to love those I serve, calms my Spirit and I know that even if people on earth don't appreciate me, that my Savior does as long as I am trying to obey His commandments. I find that once I feel all right in the sight of the Lord, those are the times that I am least likely to feel depressed. In fact, whenever I fall into depression or have panic attacks, I now look at them as an opportunity to come closer to the Lord. I know one of my biggest problems is that I forget, and one of the things I forget is how infinite the power of the Atonement is, and how infinite the Love of the Savior is. When I remember those things, situations in life may not improve at all, but I can make it through those situations and not be miserable the whole time. For that I will be eternally grateful.

A talk that has really helped me remember these things and that I like to pull out once in awhile is Broken Things to Mend, by Elder Holland in April 2006. http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-602-22,00.html When I read it I can feel the Lord's love through His servants, and as I read the scriptures I can feel His love through the Prophets. For me, when I feel the Lord's love it is really hard to be depressed. I just have to remember to look for it, whether it be in a beautiful sunset, or a friend saying "hi" to me. He is showing us His love every day, and if we just take a look with a slightly different perspective, we will see it all around us. By thinking that there is no good in the world is really thinking that there is no God, so of course that makes me feel depressed.

My biggest problem with spin and self-deception is that I lie to myself so much that I forget that my Savior loves me. I make situations worse than they really are, and worse than they need to be. A different perspective, well, maybe it is self-deception. But it's self-deception that helps me to live life in a happy manner and it brings me closer to the Lord. In my refusal to judge people and situations, even though those thoughts enter my mind, I am deceiving myself. But is that really bad?

Sorry if I rambled, but these are things that I have learned, and maybe what I have learned will help you guys learn something for yourselves. (I mean that in plural as in all of you. The things I have learned by dealing with depression I wish I would have let myself learn before I dealt with depression)

I found this quote while flipping through my scriptures preparing the lesson for tomorrow and thought of this thread.  The whole article is really good, but the link is long, so just search it up if you are interested.

"Who among us can say that he or she has not felt fear? ... We suffer from the fear of ridicule, the fear of failure, the fear of lonliness, the fear of ignorance.  Some fear the present, some the future.  Some carry the burden of sin and would give almost anything to unshackle themselves from those burdens but fear to change their lives.  Let us recognize that fear comes not of God, but rather that this gnawing, destructive element comes from the adversary of truth and righteousness.  Fear is the antithesis of faith.  It is corrosive in its effects, even deadly."
--President Gordon B. Hinckly, "God Hath Not Given Us the Spirit of Fear", Ensign, Oct. 1984