There was a book about this mentioned in Card's review column. I'll try to find it...

Aha! Finally found it. It's called The Evasion-English Dictionary (scroll down to find the review).

The rest of you are living in delirium and fantasy.  I'm perfect though and that's why you keep me around.  Of course if Ray, the communist, had his way we would all be equally delirious!

salesortonscom wrote:

---

The rest of you are living in delirium and fantasy. I'm perfect though and that's why you keep me around. Of course if Ray, the communist, had his way we would all be equally delirious!

---

Oh, play nice, now.  Ray's not a communist.  He's just more prepared than y'all to live the Law of Consecration and Stewardship

 

I posted this at Nauvoo in reply to a related topic. I think it's germaine here.

In one of my graduate courses, we're studying recent brain research and how it impacts our understanding of learning. Right now, we're learning about memory. What fascinates me is that memory processes treat both true and false memory events similarly--they activate the same brain regions regardless of the validity of what is being remembered.

One study asked children if a specific false event had ever occurred (as verified by parents) and they correctly responded that it had never happened to them. However, after 12 weeks of repeated discussions around the same false events, children identified the events as true, and gave supporting "evidence" involving parents, siblings, cause-effect sequences, etc. They had created false memories.

I have known several adults who have done this to themselves--willfully reinterpreted events and told themselves stories until they believed--their "memories" of the events became quite different from what actually happened. And no amount of evidence or rational discussion will persuade them that their "memories" are inaccurate.


-- Edited by Roper at 12:24, 2007-02-26

Cat Herder wrote:

---

Butter Toast!

Must... focus... on... getting... work... done... have... too... many... deadlines... next... two... days...

---

Cat, I could always ban your IP address for two days to help you overcome the addiction. I'm here to help

 

Thanks Roper, I remember that post and agree with it.

Unfortunately, few people here seem interested in having a serious discussion. 

I'm also quite prone to the type of self-deception named in the article, partly I think because I like to engage in introspection. In re-examining myself and situations I have been in, I have found that if I let an error or fantasy creep in it can sometimes get repeated in my mind until it is fact. Also, I tend to practice conversations in my head that I plan to have with people, and sometimes I can forget that I failed to ever actually have the conversation and think that I already told that person what I was planning to tell them.

Okay, maybe I see better what you mean by a "serious" discussion after lurking at that place across the river () and seeing the discussion you started there.

So, I was reminded of a couple scriptures... Alma 29:4 and Mosiah 4:30.

We can go through the motions of keeping the commandments and doing our duty in the Church and everything, but if our heart, mind, thoughts, and desires are not really in the right place, it could end up being for nought.  We're "graded" for what is inside perhaps more so than the outward actions.  So, if something about us needs to change, we need to start with by changing our desires and thoughts first.  Going through the motions by itself is not going to create a lasting change.

I'm puting on my serious hat now so Ray the communist will not be discussed in this thread even though he would be blacklisted by the hollywood committees run by Cecil B DeMille.

I think self deception has some good aspects.  Those that have gone through severe trauma, combat, etc. may need self deception as a mental safety valve to allow them to live through the event.  Our minds could simply not take some of the extra ordinary trauma that can come at us without self deception.  So can self deception be a blessing in some instances?

bokbadok wrote:

---

Pray tell how do you change desires?

I don't like other people's children. I hate babysitting, and yet I do it from time to time as a service.

Do you have some formula that will make me love all children everywhere?

---

Baby steps.  First you want to change the desire.  Then you give yourself opportunities to practice.  Pray to change.  Then you pretend.  Eventually the change happens.  If no change happens after inordinate patience on your part, see step 1.  (Did you really want to love all children everywhere?)

This has worked for me with difficult Primary classes, so it's not completely pulled out of my hat, but YMMV.

 

bokbadok wrote:

---

And then of course there is the opinion that religion is self deception.

---

And then there are those who say that we all live in a Matrix-like computer simulation.
At some point, you have to believe in something. Religion makes the most sense to me, and our religion specifically is the only belief system I've seen that explains everything.
It harks back to Rene Descartes famous line, "I think, therefore I am." Back then there was a huge debate about whether anything was real or just the dream of someone somewhere. Descartes came up with this argument to prove that his existence is proven by the very fact that he can question it.

 

We are all dirt anyway and dirt can change...can change into a rock!

Don't take it personally Roper.  I hate everyone.

Bok wrote: Don't take it personally Roper.  I hate everyone.
And all this time I thought it was just me!!

Wahooooooooo!!!!!

arbilad wrote:

---

BTW, one of the important things to remember is that change can happen. One of the adversary's most effective tools is to tell people that they're dirt and can never change.
Otherwise, my thoughts on the issue are pretty much like Euphrasie's.

---

I was thinking about this this morning after dropping my daughter off to school after seminary.  What is it that makes hard for us to change, particularly our desires?  The thought came that perhaps it is most of us are afraid of the effort to achieve the change or are afraid of the awkwardness we perceive of what the new state will be.  If someone wants something bad enough, they let nothing will stand in their way of changing.  And, in order to want something bad enough, they need to have a clear understanding of what the new state will be after the change.

By way of example, why do so many people who join the Church develop the strength to overcome WoW habits?  Because they know what the new state will be after the change... they will have the Spirit with them always, they will feel the joy of the Gospel, they will be free of bad habits.  Why do so many people who try to give up smoking or drinking or drugs just because they know it is bad for their health fail at doing so?  Well, the culprit cited is too strong an addiction.  Most likely, it is because they have not really changed their desire to partake of the substances.  They have not seen the real reason to do away with it.

So, if we find we have desires to be rude to others, or to think we're superior to others, or to condemn others, or to be cynical and sarcastic about others behind their backs, will we ever change if we have not removed that desire from our hearts and minds?  Do we keep that desire in the corner because we are afraid of what we will be like with out those desires?

If someone wants something bad enough, they let nothing will stand in their way of changing.

"I will give away all my sins to know thee" (Alma 22:18)

So, if we find we have desires to be rude to others, or to think we're superior to others, or to condemn others, or to be cynical and sarcastic about others behind their backs, will we ever change if we have not removed that desire from our hearts and minds?  Do we keep that desire in the corner because we are afraid of what we will be like with out those desires?

I dated a girl who had none of those desires.  She is the most sincere person I have ever met.  At the end of our first date, I asked, "Would you like to get together on Monday for lunch, or would dinner next Friday evening be better?" (You know, trying to give her more than one option up front so she couldn't use some lame excuse to avoid going out again.)  She replied, "How about both?"  No silly games leading me to think she had other interests.  No concern about seeming too "desperate."  She was simply sincere.  I married that girl.

bokbadok wrote:

---

Let's see... what would happen if we applied "Evasion English" principles to that last paragraph?

-- Edited by bokbadok at 21:05, 2007-02-27

---

The word "we" was very carefully chosen to infer that what is being spoken of refers to each of us, as opposed to singling out any one individual or subset of individuals.

take an objective look at myself

Remember one of the entries to my blog was entitled "Don't tell me those words!"?  I agree with you, taking an objective look at oneself is a good thing to do as individuals.  It is vital to spiritual and personal growth, as well as combating and overcoming depression.  The thought and action isn't a new revelatory epiphany in my personal situation.  Were I to say I've been essentially "preaching" it for several months, I would argue it is not a self-deception. 

Of course, it is interesting to see the difference in the discussion on the same topic that occured here and at the place across the river... Here, we have stayed on topic, for the most part, whereas across the river the discussion seemed to take on a "time to give advise to bok" feel.

Advance warning... take shelter if you think this is gonna set off an explosion... 

I was wondering something.  How much control and influence do we (okay, insert I, for your sake bok ) have on stopping the spiral of depression?  Can we (I) still be in control of our (my) desires and thereby have a positive influence on the clinical state of depression we (I) may be suffering from?

I ask this because of thinking about a couple scriptural citations you guys cited earlier in conjunction with my reference to Ether 12. 
"Help thou mine unbelief."
"I will give away all my sins to know thee"

It seems to me that the scriptures do not talk about the gospel principles only applying to those individuals who do not suffer from acute or clinical depression.  So, I wonder, can application of gospel principles help mitigate some of the impacts of depression?  Do those of us who suffer from depression view it as a weakness we can take to the Lord in humility so that He can help us make the area a strength?  Do we ask Him to help our lack of vision (unbelief) caused by the condition?  Are we willing to give away the "comfort zone" we have become accustomed to from the condition in order to obtain the freedom of knowing the Lord and His peace?

Cat Herder wrote:

---

Advance warning... take shelter if you think this is gonna set off an explosion...

I was wondering something. How much control and influence do we (okay, insert I, for your sake bok ) have on stopping the spiral of depression? Can we (I) still be in control of our (my) desires and thereby have a positive influence on the clinical state of depression we (I) may be suffering from?

I ask this because of thinking about a couple scriptural citations you guys cited earlier in conjunction with my reference to Ether 12.
"Help thou mine unbelief."
"I will give away all my sins to know thee"

It seems to me that the scriptures do not talk about the gospel principles only applying to those individuals who do not suffer from acute or clinical depression. So, I wonder, can application of gospel principles help mitigate some of the impacts of depression? Do those of us who suffer from depression view it as a weakness we can take to the Lord in humility so that He can help us make the area a strength? Do we ask Him to help our lack of vision (unbelief) caused by the condition? Are we willing to give away the "comfort zone" we have become accustomed to from the condition in order to obtain the freedom of knowing the Lord and His peace?

---

Gee, since no one here has mentioned anything about depression, and because I can't presume to tell you what will help you with your personal situation, I have to assume that was a whole bunch of rhetorical questions.

 

Do you deal with depression? Is that why you injected it into this discussion? Or did you bring it up because of what I said on Nauvoo? Otherwise, it really didn't belong in this particular conversation. So, if you're not talking about yourself when you ask those questions, then it appears that you are talking about me. And I got enough advice on Nauvoo to last me for awhile.

Feels like lecturing.

But then, maybe I'm reading too much into what you're saying.

Gotchyer moderating hat on Arb?

Arbilad the discussion before Cat and Bok get into a


I'm not upset. We can talk about it, but I'm just curious why depression is now part of this thread. Trying to clarify and all that.

And please people... don't use (I) just to pacify me. Use the words that express what you really mean. Using a plural pronoun to express your own feelings is self-deception which is what this thread is all about.  If you are talking about me, say "bok". Make it clear, 'cuz I'm too dumb to guess when you are directing your comments to me (and yes Cat, you've done that before), and when you are talking about people generally. If you are talking about people in general... well that's not real helpful to me 'cause generalities don't always help me understand myself. But if you (all) talk about you, and I talk about me, and we come to understand ourselves and each other better, we all win.


-- Edited by bokbadok at 16:54, 2007-02-28

Thanks for explaining all that Cat. It helps.

I don't think self deception is necessarily tied to depression, although there is plenty of self-deception that happens with depression. In other words, people who don't suffer from depression still think and speak in ways that are self-deceptive.

I talked about depression on Nauvoo because it was pertinent to the discussion of my problem. I didn't start out with the intention of talking about my own fears, but once that happened I wanted to get to the bottom of it. Some of the advice and suggestions given were very helpful, and I learned a lot. (Some were way off base, but hey, I appreciated the effort.) Because my depression was part of the problem I was trying to understand, withholding that information would have been ironically deceptive and may have made it impossible for me to get the feedback that would really help me.

I didn't bring it up here, because I got those questions answered. But if you want to talk about it, I'm willing. I'm not really interested in general theories about how much a depressed individual can control the spiral of depression, because I only know about my depression. Your depression may be entirely different, so I can't theorize about it. Roper's family member is an entirely different case that I won't touch with a ten foot pole.

If you would like to talk about your experiences, let's do it.