Illegals and the Church

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Illegals and the Church

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

The Brethren tell us that boundaries are political and that no one should be denied the blessings of the church, priesthood or Temple due to political boundaries.

arbilad · Head Chef

Even though I think illegals shouldn't be here, I'm not going to inquire of fellow church members if they are here legally. In my mind, that's between them and the Lord. Just as I don't question whether a certain person should be Bishop, or if someone is righteous enough to be a temple worker. I'm not a judge in Israel, thank the Lord.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

If only it were that simple as either of those answers (which are both true, IMO). Of course, this reply was started before arbilad chimed in and stated something I agree with.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Thanks for the comment Mahonri. Would that direction also apply to having callings extended to serve in positions in a ward or stake? I'm just curious, because at face value, it could be seen by those outside the Church as a passive endorsement on one extreme or an abuse of clergy privilege on the other extreme (much the same way a lot of people implicate the Church and the leaders for those rare instances where someone has molested someone else) by saying Church leaders had specific knowledge but did nothing... I just see it as a potential risk if the whole illegal immigration issue turned completely reactionary in enforcement to where any business, organization, or person who does not work with enforcement could be considered at least enablers of illegal immigration.

Of course, I guess since the only thing that a Bishop / Branch President / Stake President asks in that role is are you completely honest in your dealings with your fellow man, all the leader knows as clergy is how the individuals answer him.

For those of us who are naturalized or native born citizens, I guess the same thing applies to us... we aren't asked if we always drive the speed limit, for example...

I guess we should hope then that it never becomes an issue where our local leaders have to get in the middle of reporting local members compliance with immigration law.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Mahonri wrote:

The Brethren tell us that boundaries are political and that no one should be denied the blessings of the church, priesthood or Temple due to political boundaries.

But they are not denied those blessings, many can have them in their own countries.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat made a good point (

) about the speed limit.

So, do you obey all the laws? Or does that only apply to laws you think are important?

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Euphrasie wrote:

Cat made a good point () about the speed limit.

So, do you obey all the laws? Or does that only apply to laws you think are important?

An infraction is quite different from a misdemeanor or felony. It is comparing apples to oranges. I do not believe it to be a good point. I may go over the speed limit at times, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose to pass, stay safe in the flow of traffic, etc.

You don't accidentally violate the law by crossing the border at night, dodging la Migra, hiring a coyote, etc. Additionally, there are legal way of entry, and since there is a legal way, it does not justify a continuing illegal act. When it can allow disease ridden people in that pose a threat, allow terrorists and gangs and criminals in, an additional burden on the welfare systems and hospitals, they are not paying taxes and yet can get monies.

This is a fallicial comparison.

arbilad · Head Chef

Valhalla wrote:

Euphrasie wrote:

Cat made a good point () about the speed limit.

So, do you obey all the laws? Or does that only apply to laws you think are important?
An infraction is quite different from a misdemeanor or felony. It is comparing apples to oranges. I do not believe it to be a good point. I may go over the speed limit at times, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose to pass, stay safe in the flow of traffic, etc.

You don't accidentally violate the law by crossing the border at night, dodging la Migra, hiring a coyote, etc. Additionally, there are legal way of entry, and since there is a legal way, it does not justify a continuing illegal act. When it can allow disease ridden people in that pose a threat, allow terrorists and gangs and criminals in, an additional burden on the welfare systems and hospitals, they are not paying taxes and yet can get monies.

This is a fallicial comparison.

I love talking politics with a lawyer! I have vague impressions about what the law is, and a lawyer can speak with authority about what the law is.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Good point there Val...

In the spiritual sense (which is where I was solely coming from), the breaking of any law effectively has the same result. Spiritual death, unless repentance occurs so the Atonement can wipe it away. There are only certain temporal laws that we are specifically or indirectly asked about whether we are living them by our priesthood leaders. Speeding, for example, is not, just like one's status in the country (I assume). Everything that is not specifically asked is found in the general questions about honesty and doing our duty and if we consider ourselves worthy in every respect, hence putting the responsibility squarely on the individual to "fess up" to The Lord and repent where necessary. At least, that is the way I look at it.

fallicial - so deep a legal term that it does not even come back as a word when doing a search on dictionary.com

But, to assume it is not a word would be a fallacious fallacy...

Pt314 · Senior Member

While I was on my mission in Iowa, one of the people the missionaries were working with in my district was an illegal alien. It was such a mess. He was a member of the church, but the lady he considered his wife wasn't a member of the church. She wanted to be baptized, however that would imply being chaste, and not living with her 'so called husband'.

Wait it gets more bizarre. It turns out that whatever we thought his name was wasn't his real name, every couple of months he would disappear for a while, and come back with a new name. And the first councilor in the bishopric was an FBI agent.

arbilad · Head Chef

Pt314 wrote:

While I was on my mission in Iowa, one of the people the missionaries were working with in my district was an illegal alien. It was such a mess. He was a member of the church, but the lady he considered his wife wasn't a member of the church. She wanted to be baptized, however that would imply being chaste, and not living with her 'so called husband'.

Wait it gets more bizarre. It turns out that whatever we thought his name was wasn't his real name, every couple of months he would disappear for a while, and come back with a new name. And the first councilor in the bishopric was an FBI agent.

It is so uncomfortable for a 19-21 year old missionary to ask an older woman if she has "relations" with her former husband who she is still living with. I was in this situation on my mission. The lady was divorced, but still living with her ex husband. She wanted to get baptized. We asked the mission president. He told us to ask her flat out if there were any "marital relations" going on.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Can you imagine a temple recommend renewal interview starting between someone like the man and the first counselor (the bishop having delegated renewals to his counselor)? 'How are you doing Bro. X? I'm sorry, it is Bro. Y, right? Z? H? Give me a minute, I'm sure I can figure it out without having to go to official sources...'

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Valhalla wrote:

Euphrasie wrote:

Cat made a good point () about the speed limit.

So, do you obey all the laws? Or does that only apply to laws you think are important?
An infraction is quite different from a misdemeanor or felony. It is comparing apples to oranges. I do not believe it to be a good point. I may go over the speed limit at times, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose to pass, stay safe in the flow of traffic, etc.

You don't accidentally violate the law by crossing the border at night, dodging la Migra, hiring a coyote, etc. Additionally, there are legal way of entry, and since there is a legal way, it does not justify a continuing illegal act. When it can allow disease ridden people in that pose a threat, allow terrorists and gangs and criminals in, an additional burden on the welfare systems and hospitals, they are not paying taxes and yet can get monies.

This is a fallicial comparison.

So, that would be option B then?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cat Herder wrote:

Can you imagine a temple recommend renewal interview starting between someone like the man and the first counselor (the bishop having delegated renewals to his counselor)? 'How are you doing Bro. X? I'm sorry, it is Bro. Y, right? Z? H? Give me a minute, I'm sure I can figure it out without having to go to official sources...'

When my brother was in the Phillipines he often ran into people who were living with someone other than who they were married to. He told me that divource was almost impossible to get there so instead people just left eachother and found someone new. So all these divourced couples have these new "marriages" that aren't recognized by the state or their old church and they can't get baptized. Many had children with the new "spouse" and everything. At least they didn't have to change their name though.

Jason

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Valhalla wrote:
An infraction is quite different from a misdemeanor or felony. It is comparing apples to oranges. I do not believe it to be a good point. I may go over the speed limit at times, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose to pass, stay safe in the flow of traffic, etc.

This is a fallicial comparison.

From the perspective of the laws of our country, yes. But that's not the subject of the OP. Your comments were specifically about worthiness and the laws of God. Does God view violating the law of the land by intentionally speeding any less than violating the law of the land by immigrating illegally? The recommend question is not about infractions, misdemeanors, or felonies. It's about honesty.

"Who am I to judge another, when I walk imperfectly?" I echo what others have stated: I do not have the keys to function as a judge in Israel--to determine individuals' worthiness to serve in the church, or to receive temple blessings, or to make general recommendations about what whole populations must do to repent e.g. the only way they can do it is to go back.

Does anyone know what the CHI says about members who are in the US illegally?

-- Edited by Roper at 17:35, 2007-02-23

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Was the prophet Abraham an illegal alien by sneaking into Egypt and telling the Pharoah that his wife is his sister?

If a man is inspired of the Spirit to do what's best for his family and work in this country, bypassing the corruption of a system of superficial ridiculous politically motivated selfish immigration controls that don't work, are impractical, and are morally unjustifiable, who are we to argue with it?

Let freedom Ring!!

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray, I knew I could count on you to bring up an ethical dilemma: As members of the church, are we ever justified in disobeying a civil law?

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

After a member in our stake recently opined from the pulpit that LDSs should welcome illegals, I sent a message to the stake president inquiring about Church policy Re. illegal immigrants. He cited “Church policy” that we not expend Church welfare funds to help illegal immigrants with transportation---especially not further into the interior. Also we as a church are not to help them with housing. The only authorized assistance would be on a brief, temporary basis, and then only for food or clothing from the bishop’s storehouse, or for medical expenses (which the government gives them free anyway). The general concern seems to be that we not expose the Church to criminal liability for abetting them. This may give us some idea where the Church stands on the issue and on staying within the law.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

"Church Policy" in your stake.

I have received no such instruction.

We even send in mission papers for illegals. They are then transported by the Church to missions in the interior of the US.

I'm sending in papers next week for a young man.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

It seems "Church policy" Re. illegal immigrants does vary from place to place. And I was surprised at the reply of our stake president here. I've heard of illegal immigrants being sent on missions and being called to leadership positions in wards and stakes. In our previous stake in Mesa, Arizona I got the impression that the Church policy, or at least attitiude, was like that reportedly (The New American of 13 June 2005) expressed by Utah Congressman Chris Cannon in a 6 June 2002 speech to a MALDEF (Mexican - American Legal Defense and Education Fund) gathering: “We love immigration in Utah....And we don’t oftentimes make the distinction between legal and illegal.”

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Just how many souls are disposable in the church?

--Ray

Fregramis · Senior Member

So if the boundaries are political, why do we do the following:

1. Missionaries must get visas before entering foreign nations. Why? It shouldn't matter.

2. The Church counseled members to stay in their own countries and build up Zion there.

This is an interesting problem.

My opinion is that borders (as a general rule) are much more than political and have legalistic implications as well. (Remeber Elian Gonzalez?) Even the Church has a "guarded gate" as it were, and we don't just let anyone in without compliance to certain principles.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Fregramis wrote:

2. The Church counseled members to stay in their own countries and build up Zion there.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie said in a sermon to the Saints of Mexico and Central America in August 1972: “The place of gathering for the Mexican Saints is in Mexico; the place of gathering for the Guatemalan Saints is in Guatemala; the place of gathering for the Brazilian Saints is in Brazil; and so it goes throughout the length and breadth of the whole earth."

That's was given to members of the church about how Zion will be established. I don't believe it was given as an official church position on immigration in general.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Is a law in force if it is not enforced?

TitusTodd · Senior Member

I wonder what the Saints in Mexico (as an example) could accomplish if they gathered together in Mexico helping one another to collectively have what they need? I picture a greater economic and political power that perhaps might even be able to make a difference, if not just for themselves, for Mexico as a whole.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Most of the illegals who are members of the Church here don't become members until after they've arrived. Elder Jensen told us a year and a half ago that the Lord is gathering some of them here so that they can find the gospel.

We do have a few members from El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala that were already members (as well as a few mexicans) and then they found their way here. They have strong testimonies of the gospel and most are well trained in church operations. We also have one family that arrived and immediately started asking for Church Welfare... he shopped both of our Spanish wards at the same time.

Do I wish that the borders were secure? YES!

The illegals cost us over a billion dollars a year just to educate their kids here in AZ.

I can't even imagine how much we spend in health care for them. If we go to Mexico and get sick and if we don't have $$... we die. Our emergency rooms are packed with illegal aliens. They don't worry about paying. Here we roll out the red carpet for them.

I would love it if we could just annex their country and put all of their crooked politicians (ie... gaddianton robbers) away in Joe Arpaio type jails... (tent cities). We could send professional tax collectors down to show them how to pay taxes etc... perhaps we could do it a state at a time and work south. :0).

I have also seen their coming here bless lives. Tonight and tommorrow my talks will be translated into Spanish by a young man who was brought here illegally when he was a small child. He was validictorian of his High School class. He was all state in football and wresting and was #1 on their debate team and in the state. He was offered scholarships at MIT and Stanford until they found out he was illegal.

He has graduated from ASU in business and works for a company that sells mortgages. We'll soon be sending him on a mission.

I don't know what the answer is, but if the Lord brings them here for us to baptize then I say lets do it. Many of their kids are growing up and getting married and attending our English Wards. All but two of our eight Elder's Quorum presidents have hispanic names.

So we give them the gospel, we send them to the Temple and we tell them from time to time when moved upon by the Spirit to go back home and convert their families and build up the Church in Mexico.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

They come to the United States to save this nation from its own imminent destruction. They bring their faith and their families and their good hearts and the Lord provides a little direction...

--Ray

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

to save this nation from its own imminent destruction

I guess I missed that talk in Conference.....

Fregramis · Senior Member

rayb wrote:

They come to the United States to save this nation from its own imminent destruction.

--Ray

More likely to speed it up.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

-- Edited by TitusTodd at 15:03, 2007-02-24

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

They come to the United States to save this nation from its own imminent destruction. They bring their faith and their families and their good hearts and the Lord provides a little direction...

--Ray

"By their fruits ye shall know them". Surprisingly enough, those who break the law to come into the country are more likely to break the law once here. In Los Angeles, for instance, over 95% ofthe arrest warrants issued for murder are for illegal immigrants.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Let's be careful we don't start getting nasty here folks. This thread is not to be usd to disparage any group of people. The original topic was about what policy exists within the Church concerning full fellowship of members who are illegal immigrants. Let's try and limit it to that, and not broaden it to all the ills that come with the fact certain areas of the U.S. are inundated with more illegal immigrants than the authorities can or care to handle.

One thing that I found interesting in an earlier post was the comment that most illegal immigrants who are members of the Church have joined the Church after coming to the country illegally. A couple things I wonder about, are there any statistics to back it up? If so, then I can understand how some folks have a partially shut eye to the problem, if it is providing a spiritual plus to the individuals and the Church and the communities they live in. How many actually eventually "do the right thing" by either going back to their homeland -- to help build up Zion there (and do they actually hook up again in their homeland?) -- or start the proper legal avenue towards making themselves legal aliens or citizens.

I remember in Germany 20 years ago that we were not really supposed to go proselyting to the Turks (guest workers) or Ghanans (granted political asylum), we could if they approached us, but it was frowned upon if we spent a lot of time with the non-european folks. There were specific reasons, many of which I don't remember, but for the Turks and other non-christian ethnic groups there as guest workers, I think it was due to culture and religion sensitivity. As far as the Ghanans, I didn't know this until my last area, but those individuals who were in political asylum were essentially on something like what we would consider today to be parole / house arrest with a RF bracelet, except without the bracelet. They were assigned to a "home" with other refugees, were given a very nominal monthly stipend by the government (we missionaries lived luxuriously compared to them), they were not allowed to have jobs except in very rare exceptions, and they were not allowed to leave the cachement area of the "home" they were assigned to. This would often mean that those who were members (whether joined in Ghana or converted in Germany) could not go to church because the local unit met outside their respective legal boundary. They usually did not speak German, and the Germans certainly did not speak their language, and only those who spoke English well could communicate with the Ghanans since the only ones who could typically understand their English would be other African refugees or the missionaries. Anyway, they stuck out like a sore thumb, and the police could pull them over and ask to see their papers. If they were out of their assigned area, it was not pleasant for them. Also, I don't think the Church was able to provide these members with any assistance, as they were "wards" of the state to some extent...

I suppose things can change in 20 years, but it also seems that things depend on what the local laws are and how they are enforced as to how non-citizen Church members of less than legal residency status are fellowshipped.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'd trust an illegal alien with my life over anyone of the many naturalized home-grown generational welfare recipients any day of the week.

Further after our many discussions, I find myself more and more favoring a general amnesty to illegals, since the government refuses to clean up its act.

Finally, I have NO problem with the church policy of support and proselytization to illegals, because of my position on illegals. It's not a complex moral question to me, because my solutions are simple and to the point.

Naturalize the criminals illegals too, say if they're in our country they're legal, then LOCK THEM UP!

As for heated discussions... I'm as cool as a cucumber... I understand my opinion is controversial and I still have no problem holding it. There's too much protectionism and sense of entitlement in the debate.

What exactly did you do to earn your citizenship? And for that matter, what did you do to earn your membership in the church?

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 23:36, 2007-02-24

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Citizenship is a birthright. True, many people don't appreciate what they have, and those who come here from other nations perhaps appreciate it more. But I am not quite ready to say that we have to "earn" our citizenship, if we are born here. Ever read Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"? In that book, the right to vote is only given to those who serve two years of "Federal Service." The idea being that only those who have sacrificed and given something to the society have the moral virtue to be involved in the decisions of that society. Is that really what we want?

Actually, Ray, I think you are advocating the opposite--that citizenship should be a free gift to anybody who can get to America's territory. If it is given away to everyone, doesn't that cheapen it? What value does it have then?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

fear of shiz wrote:
Actually, Ray, I think you are advocating the opposite--that citizenship should be a free gift to anybody who can get to America's territory. If it is given away to everyone, doesn't that cheapen it? What value does it have then?

Citizenship is a free gift given to anybody who can get to America's territory--if they're seeking political asylum from an oppressive regime. It seems unethical to me to grant free citizenship to some but not others depending on if their country is on our arbitrary list of oppressive governments.

Shiz, does giving away membership in the Kingdom somehow cheapen it? The USA is the beginning of God's Kingdom on this earth. Why shouldn't we share that with anyone who wants to be a part of it? In this country, we have been blessed with a disproportionate amount of the treasures of the earth. Why? For only one reason--to build the Kingdom of God. In fact, most of us have made sacred covenants to do exactly that. Kicking everyone out, or locking them up, or building a fence, or denying them access in the first place doesn't seem like a good way to start.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

The USA may be the home country for the Church/Kingdom, and may have been blessed with prosperity and freedom to further that Kingdom, but that does not make them one and the same.

For the record, I am in favor of high levels of immigration--I just think it should be done in an orderly way. And I think that if there are laws on the books, they should be enforced. The current immigration system is a mess, from what I understand. The whole thing needs to be scrapped and streamlined. I have no problem with people coming to this country and enjoying its bounties and contributing to its society. I have immigrant heritage--my mother's mother was an immigrant, and most of my father's family came over in the Irish and German waves in the mid-1800s. So many of my roots here are still fairly recent. I think immigrants are great people and great contributors.

But I still think it is important to have an orderly system, and to enforce that system. A nation that cannot control its borders is not a nation.

As far as the asylum point goes, that to me is another example of what a great country we live in. Sure, it's an arbitrary list. But it is a list made by law, crafted by our representatives. As are the other immigration laws. If the laws are there, they should be enforced.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

The USA may be the home country for the Church/Kingdom, and may have been blessed with prosperity and freedom to further that Kingdom, but that does not make them one and the same.

As I stated in another thread, I believe the Constitution of the United States is the foundational document for the government of God's Kingdom. And so I believe, by extension, that the United States of America is the foundation of God's Kingdom on this earth, which to me is not exactly the same as God's Church, as we now understand it.

For the record, I am in favor of high levels of immigration--I just think it should be done in an orderly way. And I think that if there are laws on the books, they should be enforced. The current immigration system is a mess, from what I understand. The whole thing needs to be scrapped and streamlined.

And here we agree. I think our current immigration policy is deplorable. I, too, want much higher levels of legal immigration. But I am still opposed to all of the policies (especially deportation) I articulated in another thread which harm the children of undocumented workers who are already here.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

I think we probably agree on the important stuff, then, Roper. Though I've enjoyed our back-and-forth.

It is very compassionate of you to be concerned for the children of the undocumented.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

When we bought our home, the kids across the street at our elementary school were 85% white, 10% hispanic and 5% native american, black and other.

Now it's 95% hispanic and 5% all others. Most of the parents of these kids are glad that they are in our schools, but the problem is most don't even speak very good English in kindergarten, 1st and 2nd grades. Then there is a good percentage of each class where they don't speak English. I'm sending my kids to school where the teacher is forced to teach to the lowest common denominator.

At Church we tell the Bishop's of the hispanic wards... teach them in Spanish if you like to age 10 but from there on up in Primary and YM/YW they should be taught gospel principles in English if possible. We've even called young couples where they are returned missionaries who speak Spanish to these wards for two year stints to support their YM/YW and Primary programs.

We'll see what it looks like in 5 years and then if it isn't working, everyone can blame me.

10 years ago we didn't even have a Spanish speaking Sunday School class in our stake. Now two units and a Spanish speaking patriarch, so I think we are reaching out to those that have brought themselves to our country.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Have you thought about language training both of english speakers learning spanish and spanish speakers learning English as a missionary tool?

When I was on my mission in Italy, we tried this. It was not entirely ineffective, and could provide adults more opportunities to discuss things and learn the language.

There was a time when huge percentages of the east coast immigrants didn't speak English, and they were not assimilated by public schools alone. Churches played a large part in making this country a melting pot.

I agree it's a great thing. I wish I spoke more spanish, myself. There are some very nice folk who clean our office building who seem very friendly, but can't speak but a few words of English.

--Ray

PS> Also from a church perspective, what does it matter if 99% of a stake speaks one language or another? As long as the saints are strengthened and the Spirit is guiding us all... it's all good.

-- Edited by rayb at 00:38, 2007-02-28

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Mahonri wrote:

At Church we tell the Bishop's of the hispanic wards... teach them in Spanish if you like to age 10 but from there on up in Primary and YM/YW they should be taught gospel principles in English if possible.

Our guidance here has been completely different: "Every man shall hear the fulness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language, through those who have been ordained unto this power" (D&C 93:11)

That is the primary reason why our ward split--to establish a completely Spanish-speaking ward with Spanish-speaking leadership. Nothing is done in English, because that's not the "own language" of the Saints in that ward.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

I would hope, when possible, English lessons could be provided as a service. It will provide them with a tool that will help them outside of church.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

The missionaries teach an English class one night a week for anyone who wants to attend, including members of the community who are not LDS. I think that's a good thing.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

We tried the English class/ Spanish class thing.

The gringos who wanted to learn Spanish lasted longer than the 'latinos' who signed up to learn English.

Perhaps we should try it again.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Just having a place where English can learn Spanish is a blessing. Just knowing a few words in Spanish can really break down barriers between our neighbors. If the church offered such a course in my area, I'd take my whole family.

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 11:36, 2007-03-01

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I would like to learn Dutch. Can we have a Dutch class too?

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat Herder wrote:

I would like to learn Dutch. Can we have a Dutch class too?

Lundbaek, how about it? Want to teach Dutch lessons on Bountiful?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

What about Ebonics so I can communicate with gangster rappers?

arbilad · Head Chef

I think it's awfully preferential that Ray is interested in learning Spanish, but he has no interest in learning Russian. There may be more spanish speakers in his area, but there are a lot of Russian speakers as well. Don't they deserve to be fellowshipped in their own language as well?