What does America mean to you?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

What does America mean to you?

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

1 Nephi Chapter 13 tells me that The Lord planned and shaped the events that led to the establishment of the United States of America, a nation with a spiritual foundation and a prophetic history, a nation which would be nurtured by and then break with its "mother country", that the power of the Lord was with it, that it was delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations, and the Lord declared it to be his base of operations in these latter days. Certain verses in The Doctrine and Covenants Sections 98, 101 & 109 tell me that the Lord guided the men who created our constitutional republic form of government and intended that the principles of its Constitution "be established forever". Certain prophets and apostles have in years past stated their belief that America's form of government was to serve as an example of good government to other nations. Unfortunately, we as a nation have apostatized in various degrees from different Constitutional principles as proclaimed by the inspired founders. We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction" (19 July 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; ms. in Church Historian’s Office, Salt Lake City).

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

This (19 July 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; ms. in Church Historian’s Office, Salt Lake City) according to John Taylor is probably correct although many see it as heresay.

Perhaps Mitt Romney, Orrin Hatch and who knows, even Harry Reid will be a part of this prophecy.

BTW: You can either record or see Mitt and Ann Romney on ABC's program this morning with George Stephanopolous.

-- Edited by Mahonri at 04:51, 2007-02-18

crazymom5 · Senior Member

I highly doubt Hatch or Reid have a constitutional bone left in their body, look at their voting records. Romney is too much of a politician, he can speak from both sides depending on who he wants to get the vote from. He seemed to flip over night about things like abortion, same-sex marriage, or any leftwing agenda item. All of a sudden he's more conservative on those issues now that he is no longer running for office in a liberal state, but running for office on a national level, where he knows he needs to appeal to a more conservative base.

I hate to say it, but I'm not so sure it will be just one person who brings the constitution back from ruin, if we can at this point without a blood bath of sorts. And I certainly wouldn't trust a politician to do it. It seems even though some good LDS have run and been elected into office, once they get a little power, they have yielded to the crafty one for more power. I heard one LDS politician actually say that he had to get down and dirty so he could stay in the "loop" in Washington DC so he could eventually make a difference. Well, he is now just as dirty as those he was going to raise up. Sorry, I won't name him and I'm ashamed now to admit I voted for him 12 yrs ago.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'm not ready to address the broader topic of "America," because there are a lot of things about modern America that are in direct opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'll direct my comments specifically to the Constitution of the United States of America.

- I believe that the Lord Himself established the Constitution of this land by the hands of wise men raised up for that very purpose. (D&C 101:76-80.)

- I believe that the Constitution is primarily concerned with the granting and upholding of individual freedom. (D&C 101:77-78)

- I believe that the Lord does not intend the Constitution (and our government upon which it is based) to be an instrument for the attainment of social justice in the sense that the government should direct economic and social aspects of life. The divine purpose of our government is to uphold our moral agency and maintain our individual freedom. (D&C 101:76-80) It is the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ that implements God's plan for the social and economic welfare of His children, not the government.

- I believe government attempts to direct economic and social aspects of life are evil and in direct opposition to the purpose of the Constitution. (D&C:98:5-9)

- I believe the Lord established the Constitution of the United States to be the foundational governmental document for all of His children, not just Americans. (D&C 101:77)

- I believe that the Constitution of the United States will, in it's perfected form, become the foundational document for the government of Zion.

The restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Constitution of The United States go hand in hand. As Latter-day Saints and as Americans, we have a sacred duty to teach both to all of God's children.

Fregramis · Senior Member

- I believe government attempts to direct economic and social aspects of life are evil and in direct opposition to the purpose of the Constitution. (D&C:98:5-9)

This is an interesting point. For years I was taught that the Federal Reserve was evil and part of a bigger conspiracy to redirect American wealth into European Banking systems. I took a Macro-Econ. class here last summer at my University and I began to lessen my critique of the Fed. My professor showed how by balancing Supply-side economic policy versus Demand-side economic policy, the Fed has managed to find a safe calibration which has brought the nation greater economic growth with fewer and less severe recession periods.

I just don't think it is always "evil" for a national government to regulate some economic policy if it is in the best interests of the country. Feel free to pick apart my argument, Roper. Maybe we can qualify some things and I'll see yout point. This economic policy business really interests me.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Fregramis wrote:
I just don't think it is always "evil" for a national government to regulate some economic policy if it is in the best interests of the country. Feel free to pick apart my argument, Roper. Maybe we can qualify some things and I'll see yout point. This economic policy business really interests me.

I'm probably the least-qualified person on this forum when it comes to a discussion about economics. I had Econ 110 as a freshman and that's it. I hated the class and I am about as interested in economic policy as I am in the egg-laying habits of deep sea angler fish.

Here is what I was basing my opinion on:

"And that law of the land, which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me. Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and the and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the consititutional law of the land; And as pertaining to the law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this cometh of evil." (D&C 98:5-7)

The Fed certainly has the worthy goals of maximizing employment, stabilizing prices and interest rates, supervising banking institutions, and moderating risk. Since it was not part of the Constitution, however, I see it as "more than" what the Lord intended with the Constitution, and therefore "cometh of evil," at least as a quasi-governmental system.

Perhaps one could argue that the Fed is necessary to maintain our rights and privileges, and therefore a justifiable and legitimate role of government. I'm interested to hear the perspective of other forum members on this--I don't know that much about it.

Fregramis · Senior Member

I wonder if part of the problem percieved with the Federal Reserve/ Central Bank is that it is relying on the arm of the flesh. If we as a nation lived the principles of thrift and frugality, assisting the poor of our own volition, maybe we wouldn't need this regulation in the first place? I also know that with Widrow Wilson began our entrance into broader world affairs, which George Washington had warned us to avoid. Hence the IRS, the World Bank and our involvement in WWI and II, not to mention all else that has transpired since.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Mere mention of the Federal Reserve gets me Irish up, esspecially anytime within a month or so of St. Paddy's Day. But before anybody tries to flog thru what I wrote about the Federal Reserve a few years ago, consider laying hold of ( and you might try reading it) "The Creature From Jekyll Island" by G. Edward Griffin, an excellent book dealing with the Fed in a a very readable way.

"According to the U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 8, "The Congress shall have power...To coin money, regulate the value thereof,.." and "....To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;"

With creation of the Federal Reserve System in 1913, and destruction of the constitutional monetary system based on silver and gold in the 1930s, Congress surrendered tremendous discretionary power over America’s economy to a few men and women in the highest echelons of the nation’s central bank:

Power that America’s Founding Fathers withheld even from the government, because they understood — and feared — its potential for abuse.

Power that an egotistical, dynamic, and designing Chairman of the Federal Reserve’s Board of Governors might concentrate in his own hands.

Power that such an unscrupulous man might misuse for base and even malicious personal reasons.

Power that others might find a way secretly to manipulate, so as to transform the Federal Reserve from a mechanism for "fine tuning" the economy into a guided missile for mass destruction.

In 1913, the Federal Reserve replaced the national bank system. Then in 1933 the United States abandoned the gold standard for its currency. Today, the American economy operates under a monetary system which is completely outside the U.S. Constitution. Its fiat money is continually manipulated both in value and in quantity. This has had a devastating impact on its purchasing power, which is now (1985) down to 8 percent of its 1933 value. It has eroded the value of savings, insurance policies, retirement funds, and the fixed incomes of the elderly." ("The Making of America" p. 424 - 426, by W. Cleon Skousen)

It gets even more personal when I note that between 1955 and 2005 the prices of a regular size candy bar, the price of a soda pop, the price of a gallon of gasoline, the cost of a Volkswagen "Beetle Bug", the price of my Remington 870 shotgun, and many other items the price of which I am constantly aware of, have increased at least 10 fold. And that in spite of improvements in obtaining raw materials and manufacturing/production processes.

The "Fed" seems to have been conceived at a secret meeting of Insider financiers and Rothschild agent Paul Warburg on Jekyll Island, a resort island off the coast of Georgia, in 1910, where the basic plan for what became the Federal Reserve Act was formulated. It is not federal, it has no reserves, and it is not a bank. It is, in fact, a cartel operating against the public interest. The widespread belief that the Federal Reserve exists to "stabilize the economy" is hogwash; the real reason for its existence is the making of money — not out of "thin air" as is commonly supposed, but, more accurately, out of debt. It utilizes the act of borrowing by the U.S. federal government and other governments to cause money to spring into existence. It profits from the repayment of loans with interest.

The game starts with a mammoth loan (created out of nothing through the magic of fractional reserves) from (Citicorp, Chase Manhattan, Bank of America, etc.) to a Third World country with scant means of servicing the debt, much less ever repaying the principle. This is the kind of loan these bankers love, since they make their money from interest on the loan, not on repayment of the loan. They prefer the loan never to be repaid. They know they can’t lose because the Federal Reserve guarantees that massive loans that go into default will not be allowed to seriously affect the issuing bank (too big to fail) because this would "disrupt the entire economy." The "System" makes it profitable for banks to make large, unsound loans, that is the kind of loans banks will make. Furthermore, it is predictable that most unsound loans will go into default. When default threatens, the bank creates additional money out of nothing and lends it so its interest stream continues on both the original loan plus the new loan (the "roll-over" play). At the next crisis, the bank creates still more money out of nothing to cover the interest on both loans plus an additional amount for the borrower to spend freely (the "up-the-ante" play). Finally the bank agrees to a lower interest rate and a longer period for repayment (the rescheduling" play). Eventually it is time for the "Final Maneuver." Congress agrees to guarantee future payments in a way that the whole mess is shifted to the backs of U.S. taxpayers while the borrower is trapped into an IMF "austerity" program that makes an "end run" around its sovereignty.
Now money moves through various foreign aid channels to the deadbeat borrower, who continues to pay perpetual interest to the bank. Almost all of this money is generated by the Federal Reserve; as it moves out into the economy it dilutes the value of the money already there. In this way the American people are footing the bill to enrich the Insider bankers.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Aaaar! America means I has a place where I can speaks pirate-ese on forum threads without havin' to worry some scurvy bilge rat is gonna introduce me to Davy John's Locker! Aaaar!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

So with all its problems, is America still the greatest nation on the face of the earth? Was it ever? And is there any cause for patriotism and optimism despite the obvious trends toward wickedness in the culture at large?

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

The next presidential election will speak volumes about where we are at.

When they who chose wickedness are more numerous than they who chose righteousness then we are getting ripe.

The tsunami and 911 were just drops in the bucket.

If we are not careful, the millions of men in China without wives will come calling in America with bombs and guns.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:

So with all its problems, is America still the greatest nation on the face of the earth? Was it ever? And is there any cause for patriotism and optimism despite the obvious trends toward wickedness in the culture at large?

--Ray

Yep, yep, and yep. Any American who has lived in a another country, epsecially a socialist-leaning European country or an oppressive Persian Gulf country can back me up.

And as I stated above, I believe our Constitution is the foundational document for the government of God's Kingdom. To me, that means America is the beginning of God's Kingdom--kinda like John the Baptist preparing the way for the arrival of the King.

We have a lot of work to do.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

America is my home country--this is the land of my fathers, and the land of my children's future.

This is the Land of Liberty--"the last, best hope" of mankind. This is the land that God kept and preserved until it was ready to receive a people who had been prepared for the land. And that righteous, God-fearing people took the blessings of this bounteous land to build the greatest, most powerful, most benevolent, most generous, most culturally and scientifically advanced, most free, most truly religious, most prosperous, and most blessed land in human history.

My forefathers spilled their blood to defend and establish this nation. My forefathers struggled to come here from the oppression of the old country. I honor them and I honor this nation.

God Bless America!

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Good to see you again, Shiz!

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Good to be seen. I lurk--just haven't been posting much.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

I never really understood why we use the term America as we do. This is the United States of America, not America. But hey, I nitpick.

I like what Shiz said about our country and feel the same way.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Baseball, Hotdogs, Apple Pie, and Chevrolet!

That's America but if things keep going south I'm leaving the country and moving to the Republic of Texas!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

TitusTodd wrote:

I never really understood why we use the term America as we do. This is the United States of America, not America.

Well, unless I'm mistaken, despite the geographic name of the continents including the word America, the only other political country name that includes or included America was the short lived rebel government set up by several US states that seceded some 146 or 147 years ago.

Of course, we could annex Mexico and Canada and then they could be called the Mexican States of America and the Canadian States of America to differentiate them from the Real America...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

salesortonscom wrote:
That's America but if things keep going south I'm leaving the country and moving to the Republic of Texas!

Im not sure if other states do this, but did you know that in Texas, school children (and teachers) say a pledge to the Texas flag (hand over heart and everything) every morning after the regular pledge? Every class has a Texas flag hanging right next to the American flag.

"Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one and indivisible." The best part is when the Kindergarten kids say "invisible."

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

They pledge allegiance to the Texas flag?! Well, that explains a lot as to why the world revolves around Texas from a Texan's viewpoint...

In Ohio, we got to sing songs in music class in elementary school extoling the virtues of Ohio... songs like the state song "Beautiful Ohio" (which the original version doesn't make much sense to an adult let alone to a kid, as it sounds like a love song from the days of barbershop quartets and town square band concerts, and the "new" lyrics are lame because one doesn't know how they fit the music...), "Fifty Nifty United States" (which has the specific line of "Ohio is the best" contained therein in a totally unbiased, objective manner), "Fight The Team Across the Field", and "The Buckeye Battle Cry"...

But, even so, that is better than Michigan, where they couldn't even come up with an original tune! All you have to do is sing "Oh Tannenbaum" and change the words, and there is the state song of this state... oy vey!

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Using my best Russian Accent:

"In America, there are no cats and the streets are paved with cheese!"

Russian Accent Off

That's pretty cool about the Republic of Texas having a separate pledge. Do they recite it at sporting events, scout meetings, etc or just in the schools?

Isn't the official picture of the Texas State Bird a chicken on the BBQ basted in BBQ sauce?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

salesortonscom wrote:
Isn't the official picture of the Texas State Bird a chicken on the BBQ basted in BBQ sauce?

Um..yeah... (Okay, don't tell anyone. It's really a Bald Eagle.) Sure...chicken...

And Cat, I think you were mis-hearing the Fifty Nifty song. It's Idaho. How does Ohio even fit? The accent is on the wrong syllable. BTW, because of that song, I can totally amaze Cub Scouts by saying the names of all fifty states in alphabetical order in less that 20 seconds. It's like the only thing I remember from fifth grade.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Roper wrote:

salesortonscom wrote:
Isn't the official picture of the Texas State Bird a chicken on the BBQ basted in BBQ sauce?
Um..yeah... (Okay, don't tell anyone. It's really a Bald Eagle.) Sure...chicken...

Tastes like chicken...

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

This is a commercial that is being aired in Europe to combat anti-American sentiment. It bears watching for Americans, too:

http://www.18doughtystreet.com/on_demand/165

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

That's a pretty good commercial. The only problem is that it is our fault that all those bad people exist. If it wasn't for our warmongering, the world would be a peaceful place and these bad dictators wouldn't be forced into being horrible people out of a need to protect themselves from our tyranny.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I like the commercial as well, but I really wonder how much good it is doing. There are a lot of intellectual types in Europe who will label this as nothing but cheap propoganda while they continue to work their revisionist history and theories to show that the U.S. has not had as big a positive influence in the world as we claim to make.

Europe as a whole has had it pretty good for nearly 60 years now... The bloodshed that occured in the Balkans at the breakup of Yugoslavia was very local and had little impact on the rest of Europe...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:
Europe as a whole has had it pretty good for nearly 60 years now... The bloodshed that occured in the Balkans at the breakup of Yugoslavia was very local and had little impact on the rest of Europe...

And that is because the US and allies got involved in that conflict early. The administration spun it as a humanitarian effort to stop genocide. That played well for the public.

The military reason we got involved was to quickly contain a conflict that would have brought in Greece on one side and Turkey on the other--two NATO members on opposite sides of a war. It could have rapidly escalated to Eastern Europe vs. Western Europe. Any guesses about what Russia would have done to support member states of its former union?

Yep. We saved their bottoms even in that little conflict. But we're such bad guys.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Well, there was some suspicion that they were somehow providing some sort of indirect support to the Serbs -- who ethnically are like cousins to the slavs -- wasn't there? Or maybe "private" elements of the former USSR were providing Slobodan Milosevich morale support?

I don't know that we necessarily got in on what happened in the Balkans early on. I think everyone just kind of stood by for a while to see how it would play out and then determined it was not going to play out except in continued and escalating bloodshed. My memory is short on that, but I don't remember, did we actually do much militarily before intervening in Kosovo? Was bombing Serbia and Belgrade part of settling Bosnia... maybe it was. But even so, the conflict had been going on for some time before Europe listened to us and decided to tell Serbia "Enough."

Never really thought too much about the Greece - Turkey - Cyprus fallout, but it makes sense... Greece didn't want the muslim refugees from Kosovo coming across the border, Macedonia was another thorn in the side as well... Oh the beauties of all the hatred that had not been resolved but passed on for a generation or two since WWII (and before)...

But yeh, we were still the bad guys for forcing NATO and Europe to use military force to bring about a peace ultimately.

oops... sorry, didn't mean to derail... back to discussion about what America means to you.