May I ask a simple set of questions? Why were three discussions locked in the General Discusssions section with no public mention of why a moderation was necessary, why was there no notice given that one had been taken, and which moderator was responsible? Unless I am mistaken, this is not keeping with what was agreed to by those wearing the moderator hats.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Arbi's last post on the "Can't leave it alone" thread:
I think that points have been made, and it would be in our best interests if we dropped this discussion, as well as other similar discussions.
I'm not a moderator, but that seems to address, at least in part, your questions, Cat.
As a participating member of both forums, I was starting to get a bit uncomfortable with the "us versus them" turn that some of the discussion took. I didn't request the decision to close those threads, but I agree with that decision. From a member's perspective, FWIW.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
Yup, it should have been reported sooner. But there isn't always time to write out a response, while closing is a matter of clicking a link labeled "close". I don't have time to review it at the moment, but summary closing is an option available to moderators to allow discussion of the problem in question. When it comes right down to it, we don't lift ourselves up by bringing others down. I don't think it was wrong to discuss individual stories, but it seemed that the threads were only getting negative.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
As the primary moderator of the general discussion board, and after on-thread attempts to tone down the increasingly negative groundswell, I made the decision to close the threads. It should have been done sooner.
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
As the primary moderator of the general discussion board, and after on-thread attempts to tone down the increasingly negative groundswell, I made the decision to close the threads. It should have been done sooner.
Please don't get upset, but that kind of seems ironic, because it seemed like you were one of the ones fanning the spark instead of letting discussion return to normal. Honest questions here... When exactly should it have been done sooner? When did the threads exactly cross the line? And what was the line crossed?
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Probably when gracie asked folks to stop posting links to Bountiful?
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
Bok may have been part of the discussions, but she closed the threads with my full approval as Admin. We had had a discussion about the threads by private message, then by email. I had made a warning in the thread. The rules allow for moderator action pending discussion. We are discussing. If someone can posit a good reason for reopening the threads, let them post it. I don't think that it was a line that was crossed so much as a direction that had been undertaken. If you heard that one of your children's friends was into, for instance, drugs, you'd take steps to warn your child before it became a problem. It is the same thing with this discussion. I thought that the threads were headed in the wrong direction. We don't want to be negative in this forum. Remember what we were told in conference a couple of years back by some seventy (unfortunately I don't remember his name); let us not speak unkind words about anyone, in public or in private.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
When exactly should it have been done sooner? I'll use "Talk about it here openly" as an example:
Your original question wasn't overtly injurious in and of itself. When I saw it, I was afraid that the thread would turn anti-Nauvoo, but hoped that you would restrain yourself. At that point, I should have emailed you and expressed my concern and request that your comments be kept neutral.
I didn't do that.
I was away from Bountiful for the next part of the thread. When I returned, I was dismayed to see that the thread had devolved into general griping by Cat, Ray, and Mahonri. At that point I should have closed the thread, or emailed all of you to request that you edit your own posts.
Instead, I attempted to temper the tone the thread had taken by asking objective, specific questions to challenge your general, insubstantiated, accusatory blanket statements. It was a poor substitute for real moderating. After that point, I delayed moderating officially because I was then involved in the discussion. I hoped that Arbilad would step in and perform backup moderating, as we had agreed to in the past.
When did the threads exactly cross the line? And what was the line crossed? It's hard to say at what point what line was crossed, because Bountiful doesn't yet have a rule about attacking real people from other forums with hearsay and libelous rants. But my personal line was crossed several times. Here are some of examples:
"Talk About it Here Openly" thread:
Ray's 10-unwritten rules of Nauvoo post, while mostly true statements, provided ample fuel for the fire burning within some disaffected hearts. Cat then followed up with your cynical version, which was little more than outright mockery of Nauvoo and its members as a whole. It displayed nothing more than vitriol and a personal axe grinding.
Then, this statement
there have been certain dynamics over the past year or so that have driven many away from that forum either forcefully, voluntarily, or a combination of the two
This is a shift away from what you personally experienced, and applies it to a broad but unnamed group. It implies that you have personal knowledge of the reasons that have caused a large number of individuals to leave Nauvoo. When pressed about it, you admitted that you didn't know for sure what caused people to stop participating on Nauvoo, but justified your statement with this:
...they are just my observations."
"there was nothing more indicated in my post than generality, so I didn't ascribe any particular cause to any particular individual.
This implies that because you didn't name names, your insubstantiated conjectures about why other people have left Nauvoo were justified. Just because you didn't name names, doesn't make it okay.
You penultimate post stated that
there is no practical application for developing or maintaining a list of who (and/or why) has left the other forum
Is there a practical application for taking cheap pot shots at the owner, administrator, moderator, and other members of Nauvoo? No, there isn't. You are just grinding your axe.
You have nothing but your own anecdotal evidence to back up any of your accusations made on this thread. That's called libel. And that's why that thread was closed. In impending discussions with the other moderators, I will argue that it should be deleted.
The other two threads were closed primarily because they were related, and could potentially turn to the same direction as this thread did.
Bok is right - I should have performed backup moderation. I was hesitant to close the threads, because in my mind that is a major action. I had hoped that by asking the discussions about Nauvoo to cease that that would be the end of that. I posted that remark before getting an official complaint from the other board. Despite the potentially contentious nature of a political forum, I want to keep things here upbeat and spiritual.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
Was I treated badly by Nauvoo or it's moderators? Not really.
Do I have an axe to grind with them? No.
Has Nauvoo changed in the past 9 months? No doubt about it...
That's all for me. No griping on my part.
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
I did not gripe. I posted my observations. There ARE unwritten rules, and I've seen folks run up against them time and again, get frustrated and either eventually booted or the comply to those unwritten rules.
I did think Cat's "friday" gripes were um... a bit mean-spirited... and in my playful manner called him on it. His feelings about his treatment there is of utmost concern for me. I'd like to help him work through it through my patented therapy of gentle mocking and criticism.
I did find it ironic that the thread "Talk about it OPENLY here..." has been closed. I think it should've just been left to expire, but as always, I respect whatever decision was made cuz well... Perhaps Cat can go in and edit the title of the thread so it doesn't look so flipping ridiculous... and we don't look like a bunch of ninny hypocrites.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Ray, I see where you are coming from. However, the issue on that thread was talked about openly. Extremely openly. The thread had wound down before it was closed. Nothing within it has been edited by me, nor have I requested anyone else to edit. Nothing has been done here that violates Bountiful's moderating procedures. If Arbilad chooses, the thread can easily be reopened.
Talking about something openly does not mean talking about it endlessly. CatHerder has talked about his frustrations with Nauvoo in several other threads that you and I have been party to. He has discussed it on his blog. He has discussed it in emails. I ask you, how many more places must it be discussed before it has been discussed enough?
I did not gripe. I posted my observations. There ARE unwritten rules, and I've seen folks run up against them time and again, get frustrated and either eventually booted or the comply to those unwritten rules.
Gripe, complain, express dissatisfaction... they're all synonyms. Yes, you posted your negative observations. And they're valid. I happen to agree with much of what you said. I didn't edit your comments in any way or imply that they are untrue. Are you feeling unfairly treated somehow?
Talking about something openly does not mean talking about it endlessly. CatHerder has talked about his frustrations with Nauvoo in several other threads that you and I have been party to. He has discussed it on his blog. He has discussed it in emails. I ask you, how many more places must it be discussed before it has been discussed enough?
I am sorry that I inconvenienced you by asking you to listen to my concerns and feelings. It is nice to know how you really feel about them and me. I just wish more people understood and lived the principle behind not judging another person until they have walked a mile in their moccasins.
The thread was not about my frustrations about Nauvoo, nor was it about any gripe I have or had with any individual. I saw a statement, publicly made, that I had an honest question on. I don't have the luxury of asking for clarification on that forum, nor do I feel am afforded the courtesy of personally asking and getting an answer. I think it is a bit much for anyone to assume anything else. As to the comments made by Ray and me poking fun at things at that forum, well folks, this is a political forum, or so it has been said... is it okay to do so if it is about political issues or politicians, but not about more down to earth everyday politics we experience?
I'm not asking for the threads to be re-opened. There isn't any sense in doing so now, they had already run their course. I was simply dismayed that this was done without the consensus of all the moderators. I thought this was the understanding between us. Whether this makes this forum hypocritical or not, I don't know. It may be setting a precedent towards moving that way now, particularly if the decision is made and carried out to delete them altogether. Nothing was said to me in advance about altering anything, and the courtesy would have been appreciated so that this could have been avoided.
The questions that were put forth to me, bok, as "redirecting of the discussion direction" honestly did not seem to be very objective. They seemed to be fairly confrontational. Nevertheless, I answered them objectively and then took the additional punch in the gut of essentially an attitude of well, since you aren't going to give specifics, your opinion is not worth the electrons you've recorded it with.
Before we start believing or implying something is slander or libel, perhaps we should educate ourselves as to what those legal definitions really are. Mere statement of opinion, verbal or written, does not consitute either. Making false statements with the intent to maliciously damage another person or entity is. And, it has to be proven that the statement is false as well as there being malicious intent.
Again, I am sorry. And, for the Nauvoodles who were upset by discussions we here at Bountiful have had, I am sorry you got upset as well. I didn't think this forum was instituted to be an extension of Nauvoo and all that comes with that. If this is what Bountiful is turning into, then maybe it is time for me to take a sabbatical.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Cat, please try really hard not to take all of this personally. Please please try to be objective here.
I regret that I have offended you. I seem to be particularly skilled at that. There are an awful lot of assumptions flying around, and everybody is getting plastered.
Here's the bottom line for me: I feel like I completely failed as a moderator for this thread.
Rather than make ultimatums, let's discuss how to make moderating better in the future. Okay?
Cat Herder wrote: If this is what Bountiful is turning into, then maybe it is time for me to take a sabbatical.
You haven't served as a moderator for six years yet, so you're not entitled to a sabbatical. You've still got over five years left of ticking people off before you bail.
Besides, Cat, like I said when you left Nauvoo: I value your perspectives even though you get verbose at times. It would be a shame if you felt compelled to leave here too.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
I was upset for a bit, but it has subsided... I'm a big boy and will live. :) Sometimes I still let the natural man through when letting it be known I'm hurting and lash back out... we're all just baby beserkers at heart ;)
I really don't want or mean to tick people off. When I bring up questions, even hard ones, it is simply my way of trying to establish meaningful interactions with my fellow Saints, you my brothers and sisters. I really do care about all of you (Bountifulites and Nauvoodles alike), even those who do not feel they could trust me as far as they could throw me.
As far as a sabbatical, I just mean I need to scale back my entire time spent on the internet (which consists of this forum, lurking at Nauvoo to see if anything interesting is being said, and a couple news websites) on a daily basis. It is out of balance, and has interfered significantly with my productivity at work and home. And then, poor bok and I end up bumping heads and I inadvertantly get folks over at Nauvoo and here upset again because I still feel a connection to the goings on there...
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
I think we need to chill out on the thread locking.
I have read all of the locked threads, and there is nothing on there that should have caused lockage in my opinion.
Someone found another forum unfulfilling. Um, isn't that why someone founded THIS forum? Perhaps identifying the shortcomings over there will keep the same things from happening here.
Like knee-jerk thread locking, for instance.
Unless I misunderstand the purpose of this forum, we should be more than free to discuss our feelings on whatever topic. It's not as if we had so much traffic that we'd run out of bandwith.
If someone wants to exercise their fingers ranting about Nauvoo, then let them get it out of their system. No one has to read it, even if (as they say in Spanish) tiene razon (the guy has a point).
I think we need to be careful how we proceed in the future and not take the preferred natural man path of giving or taking offense when someone says something we don't agree with.
One of my perceptions has been that there seem to be individuals (unknown to me) who inform others about what is talked about elsewhere (specifically any place outside of Nauvoo back to Nauvoo insiders). And, of course, when there is history or any sort of baggage involved, that is going to get thrown into the equation of both the informant's and the recipient of the information perceptions.
This sort of behind the scenes informing is what causes more discord than even strong opinions that may get shared in open. At least in the open, the statements can be seen for what they are. But, no one else can see what has gotten embellished or mis-represented by those virtual "carrier pigeon messages". I personally view such informing as nothing more than virtual gossip, and would ask that each person, whether Bountifulite or Nauvoodle, examine themselves to see if they seek to cause discord or to establish Zion. if you find yourself wanting in the regard of establishing Zion, then just repent and stop doing what it is you're doing that is fighting against Zion.
If anyone feels I am pointing fingers, remember I readily acknowledge that there are three fingers plus a thumb that point back at me. I'm not above what I encourage you to do. Like it or not, believe it or not, how you behave in the cyber world of an online forum and the "politics" there does have a spiritual impact on you in the real world. So, I encourage you individually and collectively, remember our dealings here is but a type of the real world and how we interact and develop the charity for each other as fellow Saints. I don't think charity can exist when we aren't honest with each other, and certainly not if we won't work out differences and forgive where necessary, regardless of forum affiliation or loyalty.
I see how the thread topics I started could be viewed incorrectly, and I fault no one but myself. For what it is worth, I am sorry to any and all who viewed my asking the questions (whether I did it objectively or with my passion) as an attack on anyone. They were honest questions because of the history / baggage I brought to this forum, not to further enflame it, but to try and further resolve some of it.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
You know, Cat, maybe you should leave both forums and request that all of your posts (and references to your posts in others' posts) be deleted. Because when you run for the Senate, or when you get called to be an apostle, somebody is gonna think, "You know, he said such and such on a forum once," and it's all gonna come back to haunt you.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
Maybe we could place a little tag at the beginnning of any thread that discussed sensitive subjects like "sex" or "politics" or "nauvoo" in the topic header? THat way those who didn't wish to read about them could pass by them easily?
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Roper wrote: ...when you run for the Senate, or when you get called to be an apostle...
Bite your tongue young man... the days of the gentleman public servants are long gone, and I don't believe The Lord would ever have to scrape so low in the barrel as to call me to ANY leadership position locally, let alone at that level...
Besides, I 'm not dependant upon others to bring back to memory of my foot-in-mouth disease... the taste is something one ends up becoming quite the connesiour of... or is that concierge?
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
I only commented in one of the threads mostly due to the fact that Roper was representing my views well. It is little uncomfortable feeling like a "them" and reading vague accusations aimed at vague parties of "tattling". If I was prone to offense I would be offended but I'm not. You'll have a hard time successfully offending me.
For over 5 years I have found Nauvoo to be a fine community with an assortment of people participating. The attempt at keeping discussions cordial and well-behaved is a difficult one that I wouldn't want to be responsible for as a moderator. No matter what you do someone is going to be offended. Due to the attempts to keep everything nice at Nauvoo some discussions have been deemed inappropriate (namely political discussion) and thus I come here to Bountiful for some of those discussions. It is nice to see some of those who have left Nauvoo here.
It is dissappointing to see what was transpiring in the threads that were locked. It is disappointing that some found it necessary to disparage Nauvoo and those who participate there. Let Nauvoo be and discuss what you want here. So, I am fine with the existance of the locked threads and even the reopening of them. I am saddened that some felt those discussions should take place. Should it be a surprise that it was deemed inappropriate to link to a forum with such a discussion taking place?
