Well, I just got in another heated debate with a friend of mine, a member of the church who considers himself a socialist.
I was in the same car with him when he started going off again on why he thinks president Bush and others should be impeached and tried for war crimes. I just couldn't stay out of this one, and pointed out all of the reasons we went into Iraq. Which then led into a discussion about what to do about Iran.
His points that came up
He thinks that preemptive war is always evil, and therefore should never be used.
Even if you know that Diplomacy won't work, you should not use force and try diplomacy constantly use it until you personally are attacked.
Since we have currently and have used Nuclear Weapons in the past (Hiroshima & Nagasaki) that we have no right to keep others from having them. (This went off onto a side discussion on how it was wrong to demand from Japan unconditional surrender)
If we ever get nuked by Terrorists, it would be because it was ment to happen.
My points
I think that the governments main responsibility is to protect its people, and that preemptive war in some situations is the more moral choice than not stopping a greater evil. (Thinking about how many lives would have been saved if we stopped Hitler earlier.)
We had every right to use Nuclear Weapons to end WW2, and that it isn't a double standard to try to stop hostile countries ,that will probably use them, from having them today.
Anyway he is very good at speech and debate, and always managed to make it look like my positions were evil, unfair, unreasonable, or against scripture. And it made me feel afterwards that no matter what there is no way to articulate my position without him turning it around.
However I am glad that after every episode like this, that our friendship is intact. However I am afraid that things could get really ugly the next time something like this comes up.
If he knew that someone was going to come to his home and harm his family would he put a stop to it first? Perhaps they had hurt others and they were working their way down the block... would he stop them before they hurt his neighbor or would he wait until his home had been breached?
Be a true friend and buy him a one way ticket to downtown Bagdad.
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
Sad, sad, sad... sounds like this associate of yours has never experienced anything but the comfy life and knows nothing of history except the revisionist versions that many liberal neo-hippie professors and other "learned" academians use to pass on their social and political agendas to young, trusting, and often naive youth.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Did you ask him if we should have entered WWII earlier knowing what we know now about Hitler killing people in concentration camps or should we just have waited around like we did. Evil must be fought. I guess the Nephites were wrong everytime they tried hunting down the Gadianton Robbers who were hiding in the mountains plotting for their next attack.
Mahonri wrote: With friends like this, who needs enemies?
Is your friend married-- does he have a family?
If he knew that someone was going to come to his home and harm his family would he put a stop to it first? Perhaps they had hurt others and they were working their way down the block... would he stop them before they hurt his neighbor or would he wait until his home had been breached?
Be a true friend and buy him a one way ticket to downtown Bagdad.
My list of friends also include an arch-conservative, and a conspiracy theorist. It can get quite strange.
No, he isn't married. He has done some college (English major) and is currently dating. He does have a family counting his parents and siblings.
I think I tried asking him about what we should have done about Hitler, but he redirected the conversation to us dropping the bomb on Japan. I think I will ask him your question next time I see him and see how it goes.
He did think you have a right to protect your family, just not that you can take them out before they do something. Maybe I am overstating what I think his position is.
At least he agrees we shouldn't leave Iraq immediately, and hope all goes well.
Don't mean to sound like an old fart, but while it is okay to develop opinions, it is pretty arrogant for a young man to develop such dogmatic opinions when he has so little life experience to base them off of.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Preemption is a tricky business. There are a lot of assumptions that have to be made. And it usually comes down to how good your intel is. Having served a career in the intelligence field, I'll readily attest it's an art, not a science. Making the case for "clear and present danger" (which has to be made for the US to act in accordance with military doctrine--Powell's address to the UN was an attempt) is always tenuous.
On the other hand, when an enemy has sworn to destroy you, and then begins developing the capability to do so (Iran and Israel), then preemptive strikes to curtail or eliminate their capability to make war saves lives and resources. That's the morally right decision versus a protracted engagement in the future.
On the other hand, one can find in the Book of Mormon examples of both: The Ammonites made a covenant never shed the blood of another, even in their own defense. Many sacrificed their lives in keeping that covenant. The Nephites under Captain Moroni made a covenant to defend their freedoms and families. Many sacrificed their lives (including Teancum, who was all about preemptive strikes) in keeping that covenant. I think one of the lessons from the contrast is not to justify a non-violent or a preemptive approach to war (because I believe both are in harmony with gospel principles) but to understand the importance of keeping covenants with God. In regard to protecting my liberty and family, what covenants have I made?
On the other hand, there are five additional fingers.
-- Edited by Roper at 20:10, 2007-02-05
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
The war that started in 1990-91 never really ended. It was just put on hold. Same with the Korean war that started in 1950. We are still dealing with that one too. And the war that Iran declared on us in 1979.
Sheesh. It's about time that this country finished a war with somebody...
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I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.
It is sad when we have such massive amounts of hardware and airpower that we are letting our troops get picked off by these b_____ds over in Iraq. Our boys stick out like sore thumbs over there. I say have them wear Burqas and turbans and robes and sucker punch those bums like they do to us.
I'm afraid the time to start handing out grenades instead of Hershey Bars is past. Our troops are worn out and may not be up to the task of a surge operation.
I say pull our troops then immolate Baghdad. If the U.S. can't keep it under control, no one else should.
He hasn't served a mission, he wanted to, but didn't go due to medical reasons. I don't want to go there.
I think he likes the idea that he has what is in his mind the superior moral position. It is very frusterating. He also looks at hyper-liberal webpages and other forms of media, which in a sense constantly fortifies him.
We have been friends since High School, and as long as I stay away from politics we get along quite well.
Pt314 wrote: He also looks at hyper-liberal webpages and other forms of media, which in a sense constantly fortifies him.
Never hurts to look at things from a hyper-liberal perspective once in a while. It helps to balance the ultra-conservative perspective. Hopefully, the exercise will encourage a thoughtful and reasoned approach to the issues. Nothing encourages me to disengage from a discussion faster than someone who believes their opinion is God's Universal Truth, and those who disagree with them must be pitiably unenlightened.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
Now, if people will just stop being so proud and accept the fact that I have it from a very good source my opinions are God's Universal Truth and if they disagree they are pitiably unenlightened, life would be so grand for us all...
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
