Talk about it here openly...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Talk about it here openly...

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

"Does it say anything about the level of trust within the "community" if people feel safer posting under alternate pseudonyms?"

All I know is what was expressed on the thread. Some people are more secretive than others. I don't think that's unique to Nauvoo.

"I also wondered if anyone else was curious if that "openness" is extended to only folks who are allowed to be a part of the forum, or if it extends to those who have been banned or otherwise chased from the community..."

What are you really asking here? 20 words or less.

I think it's mostly housekeeping.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Once upon a time I used multiple identities at Nauvoo. (3 or 4) I won't go into the details. It doesn't matter. Folks there COMPLETELY misjudged me... but it was OK. It was a blessing at the time. I've since learned some things about those who misjudged and so I can understand a bit better now. (Glad I don't have to go to church with them! :0) )

I spend very little time at Nauvoo now.

Still a blessing.

-- Edited by Mahonri at 22:52, 2007-02-01

arbilad · Head Chef

While I don't think of Bountiful as a place for refugees from Nauvoo, the fact is that we do have some. I don't worry too much about why. There are probably many reasons. The simplest of them is that some places are more pleasing to certain people, and less pleasing to others. This applies to both Bountiful and Nauvoo.
When you signed up, Mahonri, I reviewed your posts at Nauvoo. As I remembered, you seem to be a person with his head on straight. That doesn't mean that I always agree with you. But hopefully we are creating a place here where people are welcome to disagree.
I don't know if they're inviting people back to Nauvoo or not. But, as I said before I took a 6 month vacation from Nauvoo a year or two back, I have no obligation to participate in an online forum. If it is, on the whole, a more negative experience for me than positive, then there is no reason for me to continue.
I still post at Nauvoo. But I entirely avoid certain discussions and posts from certain people. I am much happier. And now, if I want to bring up anything that some will find controversial, I do it here.
Granted, as the owner of this forum I have great leeway. But I like to think that we're creating a place where people can have a discussion, disagree, and still like each other afterwards. We don't have a perfect record, but we are trying.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

I think it is just some housekeeping. I've never seen the need to have an alias for sensitive questions as I already operate under an alias. Of course, I really don't think I've brought up any sensitive questions. My life is pretty dull - which is not a complaint.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

bokbadok wrote:
What are you really asking here? 20 words or less.

Is that "openness" extended only to those deemed acceptable in the forum? That is 12 words... I have provided a productivity improvement of 40% above the target you provided. Can I have a raise now?

In my time there, I only utilized one pseudonym, and did participate "warts and all", but was in the end found wanting as far as acceptability to the "community", and because of personality clash with one or more of the inner circle. That is why I as wondering about the statement, not because it is my desire to be a "Nauvoodle".

I agree with you and TT... it is likely just housekeeping.

Arbilad wrote:

But I like to think that we're creating a place where people can have a discussion, disagree, and still like each other afterwards. We don't have a perfect record, but we are trying.
Yeah, I think we are doing pretty good. We don't have a lot of participation or involvement yet, but we aren't turning into a chat room environment either.

Mahonri wrote:

Once upon a time I used multiple identities at Nauvoo. (3 or 4) I won't go into the details. It doesn't matter.
Oh, now you know we are gonna want to know what those details now... must... fight... natural... man... tendency...

p.s. I just noticed the quote button at the bottom of the new post window for putting what you're quoting in the little box thingee. I like I like!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Is that "openness" extended only to those deemed acceptable in the forum?

There are a few unwritten rules at Nauvoo not covered by the charter in direct language, but for the most part they tolerate an assortment of personalities (most of them, mine)...

1. You can't talk about sex in Nauvoo. That's just gonna get you in trouble. This is because (literally) there are bunch of grandmas in Nauvoo and people don't talk about sex in front of their grandma.

2. You cannot talk about what makes people gay in Nauvoo, even if you have personal experiences, or really good anecdotal evidence--believe me! I've tried...

3. You can't be overly confrontational, because certain personalities will report you.

4. If Madame Moderator says "enough" you stop immediately and apologize profusely, and then you don't bring it up again, save perhaps as a passing joke in the fortress, which you don't talk about, but let drop there too...

5. Never attempt to reopen a thread that's been locked by rephrasing it in some thinly veiled way.

6. You can't talk about the moderation process or decisions made by a moderator.

7. You can't criticize or attack Orson Scott Card.

8. No political discussions are tolerated.

9. You can't just show up as a stranger to promote your own commercial endeavor.

10. You can't go too far into the apostate/speculative camp without making people uneasy and reporting you... but then, I think that's in the charter, along with posting links to stuff that has links to disreputable crap, etc...

I look at it like a game. There are rules to any game. Some rules are written in the handbook, others you learn as you play, depending on who are the other players and how they play the game. If you start trying to make baskets in the middle of a soccer game, you might think you're following the rules, but most of the time, you ain't...

--Ray

TitusTodd · Senior Member

You can't criticize or attack Orson Scott Card.
Well, you shouldn't attack anyone. However, I've seen some criticism of OSC commentary over the years that did not get stifled. It is when the criticsm is impolite on some level that there is a problem.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

And may I just elaborate... (sorry, I just couldn't resist... )

1.a. Male bashing is an acceptable alternative, as long as it is general and the ones holding the pummeling batons always indicate how wonderful their own DH is...

2.a. Please phrase the discussions on this along the lines of "dealing with SSA" and then it becomes a virtual "ward council" discussion on "compassionate service..."

3.a. Remember the "confrontational" is solely in the eye of the beholder, and beholders are politically connected, so if you are a beholder, you obviously can't be being confrontational...

4.a. We won't be rehashing that here...

5.a. Freedom of Speech vs. Freedom of Expression... exercise the first, and you'll find how freely the expressed is expulsed...

6.a. You agreed to it when you joined...

7.a. ...or rub him wrong in any way (intentionally or unintentionally), or his son, or his wife, or his works, or the moderator, or the moderator's buddies, or...

8.a. What was that, too busy complaining about the people and things going on in my ward...

9.a. But, spend some time with us and if you're in the area, we can have a get together when you're in town...

10.a. We are all just victims, afterall...

And, the resemblance between playground jungle ball and the real game of basketball pretty much ends after the fact both usually have a basketball and a couple baskets...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It's good to see you're healing, Cat. Or should I say, Sidney?

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

ETA... what I can't try a little cynical humor? It's Friday... come on...

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 11:38, 2007-02-02

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Uh-huh... suuuuure... it's all just you being cynical... :TONGUE IN CHEEK:

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

BTW, I have no problem with a certain amount of spleen venting about Nauvoo on this forum. But I do not want Bountiful to just become a bunch of bitter ex-Nauvoodles talking about how horrible it is over there. I don't think we've reached that point, nor are we likely to, I just thought it prudent to let everyone know that there are boundaries.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Okay, derail aside (and yes that was the risk I was talking about... the assumption that I was simply venting unresolved bitterness... which, by the way it is not), I think the question(s) I put forth at the beginning were valid things to ask from an observer's point of view... I mean, think about it, this is not even the type of discussion that would be allowed there for a variety of reasons real and speculated.

So, we've had the viewpoints of several of you who are fairly active there, and there have been the questions I put forth at the start. What about those of you who participate here but are not so involved at Nauvoo any longer?

Arbilad and Ray, since you are the administrator here or at another forum (respectively), can you share why you think it would be a concern for members to have more than one alias? Housekeeping issue does seem to be the consensus at this point.

arbilad · Head Chef

I'm actually straining to think up some issues. Unless Nauvoo is using a fairly old version of ultimate bulletin board, they should be able to handle a much larger number of user names than they have. Disk storage should not be an issue, since whatever hosting company they work with should have tons more disk space available than would be needed for many more user names.
I'm thinking that the most likely reason for the new rule is not a technical question, but an administrative one. For some reason, they feel that the board will fill its purpose better if everyone sticks to one username. Again, I'm not sure what the reasons would be. The Admin can usually track which usernames belong to who by looking at the IP address. That's also how you ban someone. So I don't think it's a question of finding out who people are (at least for the administrators).
I'll have to think about that one more.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Someone on Nauvoo asked the question "why", and it hasn't been answered publicly yet. I suppose you could email EDG and ask. I have found her quite willing to answer questions.

Is that "openness" extended only to those deemed acceptable in the forum?

Sorry, but that seems to be a silly question. Obviously, those who are deemed unacceptable to the forum are not going to be offered open arms.

Let me see if I can guess what you are really asking.

"Will previously banned individuals be refellowshipped?"

"Will EDG ever forgive CatHerder for his libelous blogging?"

I'm sure these are weak and incorrect attempts to decipher your meaning. So tell me what you really mean. Use small words. Be specific.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

All I know is that Ms. Card "assummed" a bunch when I was asked to leave Nauvoo. She was dead wrong, but I didn't feel the need to argue with her. It just wasn't that big a deal.

M

arbilad · Head Chef

Mahonri wrote:

All I know is that Ms. Card "assummed" a bunch when I was asked to leave Nauvoo. She was dead wrong, but I didn't feel the need to argue with her. It just wasn't that big a deal.

M

That's odd. KA Card wasn't even the main administrator for that long. I can't pretend to know the situation or the reasons why you were asked to leave. All I know is that, from my viewpoint, you have your head on straight.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Actually, KCard is THE administrator of the board. It's got OSC's name on it, but it is her baby. Apparently she does a fair amount of moderating... much more than I was aware of.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

So far, I've enjoyed my experince at both Nauvoo and Bountiful. Maybe I'm not passionate enough about certain issues. Maybe I'm too patient. Teenagers and toddlers in the house at the same time provide continual opportunities to develop that trait.

LEVE · Veteran Member

Humm... how have I missed all this Pathos at Nauvoo?

-- Edited by LEVE at 08:02, 2007-02-03

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

LEVE, it's only there if you have the eyes to see it. Apparantly, I don't have those eyes because I've missed a lot of it also.

LEVE · Veteran Member

In many of the Wards and Branches I've live in there has been a problem with rumormongering. Often you're either rumormongering, or your the target of rumormongers. The better half and I have been blessed to be neither... or I guess we're just too stupid to know it...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

For those of you know my background, sure it sounds like my questions could sound like that what bok was asking (again, part of the risk I took in bringing the topic up).

But, take them for face value, because that is really all they are. The question really was simply if the dynamic was changing to be a little more understanding and tolerant of others, or was that tolerance and understanding still only being reserved for those of the inner circle.

As far as I know, EDG and I have made peace with each other. That does not equate to my wanting to go back to Nauvoo or being invited back. If there were others behind the scenes that took offense at my speaking my mind off or on the forum about what I experienced, no one made it known, and hence I will not assume there was anything to make peace over.

Larry and Roper, don't worry about it... you two are blessed with having personalities (and hence ways of stating your opinions) that are very unlikely to get you in trouble by sticking in anyone's craw.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Mahonri: I'm surprised to hear you were invited to leave. In fact the last discussion of you, I seem to recall, even EDG was asking where you were... No mention that you'd left because of some kind of infarction was mentioned.

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

It really wasn't that big of a deal Ray.

False rumormongering had begun and it was felt that it was best that I just leave. Part of it was my fault, and I'll openly admit it. Part of it was false assumtions made by members of the forum as well as by Ms. Card. I have no ill feelings toward her or to those who judged wrongly.

I don't even want to get into the details, they are laughable really.

My church job has gotten much busier and so it's just as well.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Well I just hope we can avoid making the same mistakes here. We all are a bunch of friends, even though, once in a while, feelings do get hurt, and we have strong opinions and such, and I can be a bit of a jerk sometimes... though most of the time I'm shooting for obnoxious... so it's never entirely intentional.... and this is a runon sentence that I have no idea how to end... so um... yeah...

--Ray

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Thanks Ray... just remember that I enjoy your obnoxiousity.

Since I'm online I checked the score... (football is NOT allowed in our home on Sunday)
my Bears are loosing.

I wanted Vegas to tank their line but no such luck I suppose.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

>Thanks Ray... just remember that I enjoy your obnoxiousity.

You are a gifted fellow. :)

--Ray

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Maybe the person is posting under an alternate not because they don't want the Nauvoodles to know who they are, but because they don't want someone else in their house or somewhere on the Internets to find what they're posting.

Personally, I think if I can't post it as myself, I shouldn't be posting it. . . but then again I haven't had a situation where I've felt the need to be anonymous. So I can't judge that fairly.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Actually Jen, the query was not why individuals were using multiple psuedonyms, but why the forum administrators over there were asking / requesting forum members not to do it.

Don't know if you are the Jen from that forum or not (a lot of us here go by the same psuedonym we had/ have there), but there have been certain dynamics over the past year or so that have driven many away from that forum either forcefully, voluntarily, or a combination of the two, and I was simply curious if this represents a shift towards being more open, tolerant, and kind towards those who hold, express, and stand by differing viewpoints from those who run the show and their circle of friends.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Catherder I am that Jen, and it's nice to see you. :)

I haven't noticed that dynamic but I haven't paid that much attention, either. I have noticed people leaving, and I don't like that. The feel of the board has changed because of that, yes. Maybe that's what you're talking about? I'm more dense than usual when I'm pregnant, so I have at least 5 more months of stupid ahead of me. Which is probably why I completely missed the subject of this thread. Sorry.

(<--- that's me practicing my reading comprehension)

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'll say this. Bountiful has begun to have the feel that Nauvoo has never had. I like it. Here you can truly be yourself without the worry that you'll be attacked or censured like I was regularly over there.

At the beginning I liked it. Towards the end (for me at least) it became a bad game.

I don't watch much TeeVee so this is way for me to relax, get other's opinions on various subjects. Smile, laugh and feel a part of a larger community.

There are still folks over at Nauvoo that I miss. I loved Pink Floyds down to earth common sense.... there are others.

There is a good crew here too.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

there have been certain dynamics over the past year or so that have driven many away from that forum either forcefully, voluntarily, or a combination of the two

Many? I'd be interested in seeing that list, Cat. Do you have it handy?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Mahonri: Sadly, we kinda blew it with Pinkie... Oh well, we live and learn... I keep hoping Sweet William will show up someday (we almost had him, dang it!), but I understand he's busy courting gentile women and may not be interested in the internet much anymore... (It is funny when he blows up on Mormon women, though... tee-hee-hee!)

But there are some decent folk here... like Bok!

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

Mahonri wrote:

I'll say this. Bountiful has begun to have the feel that Nauvoo has never had. I like it. Here you can truly be yourself without the worry that you'll be attacked or censured like I was regularly over there.

At the beginning I liked it. Towards the end (for me at least) it became a bad game.

I don't watch much TeeVee so this is way for me to relax, get other's opinions on various subjects. Smile, laugh and feel a part of a larger community.

There are still folks over at Nauvoo that I miss. I loved Pink Floyds down to earth common sense.... there are others.

There is a good crew here too.

Sure, put the pressure on to keep the forum nice

Unfortunately, like Ray said, we did blow it with Pink. And we have our ups and downs. Hopefully we will keep the right combination.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Yeah, we feel bad that PF had a bad experience. It would be nice if he deigned us worthy of participation again. I for one am still not entirely convinced we weren't set up for failure there, and that it was going to be a no win situation. PF's sparring partner in that incident hasn't been around since then either.

bok, no I don't have or keep a list. Could probably assemble a very incomplete one, but that would serve no productive purpose. Anyone can go and take a historical look at the variety of screen names and see who was participating regularly 6 - 8 months ago and then compare it to the number of folks who are regularly participating now. It would be even easier to track anecdotally had certain individuals there not all decided (on what from a lurker's standpoint appeared to be a lark) to change their screen names en masse several months ago. Perhaps the administration over there keeps a list of folks that are officially blackballed or are considered on probation...

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ah, so you are the kind that makes vague, blanket statements but declines to back them up with facts.

I am honestly curious as to how many people have been "forced" off of nauvoo, how many have "given up" on Nauvoo, and how many have "lost interest" in Nauvoo, and all their respective reasons. I am hesitant to ascribe a cause to the fact that someone participates less than they used to, without definite information to that effect. Obviously, you know more than I do. That's why I'm asking you to provide more information to back up your statement.

Perhaps it would help if we had a poll here at Bountiful. How many Bountifulites came her as Nauvoo refugees? How many participate in both forums? How many don't care?

It would be even easier to track anecdotally had certain individuals there not all decided (on what from a lurker's standpoint appeared to be a lark) to change their screen names en masse several months ago.

all? en masse? Dude. You obviously have very different definitions in mind for those terms than I do. I am only aware of two individuals who permanently changed their user names. One or two people changed them for fun, and then changed them back. Were there more than that?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Ah, so you are the kind that makes vague, blanket statements but declines to back them up with facts.
Yes bok, particularly when they are just my observations...

I am hesitant to ascribe a cause to the fact that someone participates less than they used to, without definite information to that effect.
Well, there was nothing more indicated in my post than generality, so I didn't ascribe any particular cause to any particular individual. Moot point... UNNNNH {buzzer sound}

Perhaps it would help if we had a poll here at Bountiful. How many Bountifulites came her as Nauvoo refugees? How many participate in both forums? How many don't care
The best I (or anyone) can provide is an anecdotal assembly of folks. Sure, I'm curious too, but it really doesn't serve a greater purpose other than to fuel percieved pokes in the eye by folks. And, that is not really peaceful, now is it... But, start one if you want to if Arbilad's okay with it...

all? en masse? Dude. You obviously have very different definitions in mind for those terms than I do. I am only aware of two individuals who permanently changed their user names. One or two people changed them for fun, and then changed them back. Were there more than that?

I don't track these sorts of things... I just remember on a lurk-see that there seemed to be a group who seemed to be playing peek-a-boo with each other via user names... I made the error of leaving the word "all" in when I pre-post edited the word to certain individuals. What?! Give me a good paper cut and pour lemon juice on it, why don't ya!

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I said:

Ah, so you are the kind that makes vague, blanket statements but declines to back them up with facts.

You replied:

Yes bok, particularly when they are just my observations...

Observations made through the narrow lens of your own experience at Nauvoo. You can't help but see it that way, I think. You make general assumptions about other people's reasons for leaving Nauvoo, but don't care to find out whether they are accurate or not.

Opinions that are inaccurate and insubstantiated are called conjecture.

Now that it is clear that you don't really care to know what is really causing people to leave Nauvoo, I'll know to ignore your biased "observations" in the future.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I've always felt accepted at Nauvoo and at Bountiful, even when I have disagreements with other members. I value my membership in both communities, and I'll continue participating in both communities.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I did have a rather verbose response to your last post, bok, but decided to spare y'all the torture and just post the executive summary version.

1. My feet are usually already in my mouth all the way up to my knees, so please don't make it too uncomfortable by putting words in there that I'm not saying

2. To restate for clarity's sake, there is no practical application for developing or maintaining a list of who (and/or why) has left the other forum, except for that forum, and as others have stated, if that forum is interested in so doing, they can do so (maybe by conducting an exit interview or poll or survey). But there isn't a need to do so here on Bountiful, imo, even if people here feel they have some sort of vested interest there.

3. I think you are more concerned with the validity of my opinion (Opinion: a personal view, attitude, or appraisal) than the reliability of how I came to it. By definition, a conjecture is "to conclude or suppose from grounds or evidence insufficient to ensure reliability". When there is no way to empirically prove or disprove another individual's observations (Observation: an act or instance of noticing or perceiving) for reliability, or in other words "yielding the same or compatible results in different clinical experiments or statistical trials", it is not accurate (Accuracy: the condition or quality of being true, correct, or exact; freedom from error or defect; precision or exactness; correctness) to state someone else's opinion is a conjecture, regardless of if it appears to be right or wrong. A conjecture, also by definition, does not require the "grounds or evidence" to be correct, only that they are insufficient to ensure reliability. So, with all that in mind, validity (Validity: the state or quality of being valid; Valid: Correctly inferred or deduced from a premise; Premise: A proposition upon which an argument is based or from which a conclusion is drawn) has nothing to do with whether something is a conjecture or not. {cue Sound of Music sound track} And that brings us back to Do-oh-oh-oh...

4. No one has ever forced anyone to lend any creedance to my observations, opinions, conjectures, thoughts, or feelings. As the disclaimer some use says, Your Mileage May Vary. For the record, my observations (right, wrong, or indifferent) on people appearing to leave the other forum are since my departure from there. I think what gets most people's goat though is the summary dismissal of their viewpoint simply because it doesn't agree with someone else's viewpoint. No person's observations are going to be without a bias, but that does not mean they are not worthy of consideration. Two cameras trained on the same football play from different angles will see the same event, but what is observed may be slightly different. Which camera is without bias on the replay?

5. luv ya

You're always good for some mental exercising!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Cat... you sure you ain't one of dem evil lawyers?

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I can laugh at myself, but telling jokes about myself (had I decided lawyering was the career for me) would be just weird, and well, while I'm weird, I'm not that weird...

I probably could have gone to law school and done okay, but I was never interested in that sort of thing. I had a family already when I went back to graduate school, and a two year full-time program was enough burden for us. I did have some single (or single marrieds... married with no kids and both were in graduate school) class mates in my MBA program who did the dual J.D. / MBA.

http://fishermba.osu.edu/mba/joint_programs/jd_mba.php