Yay for sin!!!

Ros · Senior Member

Yay for sin!!!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Prodigal son / brother? Has he really changed if he has just decided to get married and he and his main squeeze are getting the piece of paper that says they's legal?

Okay, that all aside, how old is he and the bride who can't be wearing white? Why should they expect someone else to pay for their honeymoon? If they want to honeymoon on a cruise or Mazatlan or where ever, I would think that they should pay for that, no? Particularly if they are gainfully employed and have probably been living the life of "single" professionals for x years? Particularly since they have probably already honeymooned extensively... Are my assumptions too far off? Who decided that your mother would pay for it? Them, or her? Or was she pressured into it?

Ros, you have my permission to thwap them one upside the head with a good slap of the hand while having Chuck Norris give them a good roundhouse kick to the face...

But, please, no throwing up in Bountiful... cleaning stuff like that up is not part of our job description as moderators

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I just have a couple a quick questions for you Ros for the sake of gaining some more info on the situation. I hope that I can ask it in such a way that you will not be offended. It sounds like your brother has a history of acting like he is the center of attention. How has your mother treated him in the past? Is she prone to bailing him out of problems and puting up with bad behavior?

The reason I ask is that I have seen situations like this before and often the black sheep family member has almost been enabled by a family member. I'm not saying this is the case in your situation but in the brief description you gave it was the first thing to pop into my mind.

I can totally understand how you feel. He's getting his cake and eating it too plus it looks like he is being rewarded for bad behavior, something that doesn't sit well with any clear thinking person. From your description this doesn't appear to be a case of remorse and a desire to finally do the right thing but one of they just decided to get the legal part out of the way. Also difficult to stomach for most moral people.

The part that still piques my interest is how he is asking for and seemed to expect the lavish wedding and honeymoon cruise to be paid for by the family which suggests to me that he has been bailed out and for lack of a better term spoiled or enabled in the past.

Maybe you can supply some more info.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Ros, are you saying you're having your brother's baby and that he's an illegal alien running off to mexico!? I'm very confused...

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 09:12, 2007-01-23

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Oh Ros, that is most aggravating, isn't it! I completely agree with you. It makes me want to spit nails when sin is rewarded thusly.

Perhaps you can console yourself with the knowledge that a marriage license does not a happy marriage make. Their chances for a successful marriage have been much reduced by their actions. If they're average, they'll probably be divorced in 5 years or less, with all the misery and unhappiness that come with it. Does that make you feel better?

Ros · Senior Member

"Is she prone to bailing him out of problems and puting up with bad behavior?"

Yes.

"....the black sheep family member has almost been enabled by a family member. "

Yes.

"...expects the lavish wedding and honeymoon cruise to be paid for by the family which suggests to me that he has been bailed out...or enabled in the past."

Yes, yes.

...how old is he and the bride...?"

30's

"Are my assumptions too far off?"

Nope.

"Who decided that your mother would pay for it?"

At one point, a well meaning aunt told him if he just got married 'we' (who's we?) would "do" the wedding. This makes sense, our family 'does' weddings. But he doesn't want 'us' to 'do' it, he wants to choose his own vendors and have 'us' pay for it.

At first this was tolerable. Then they started getting creative and wanting exotic centerpieces and unusual cakes that sent the $$$ up, up, up.

Then came the HOneymoon. I should point out that I'm not so angry with him as my mother. He whines, she caves. I suggested several fun and affordable ideas. (Including Disneyland) and he says......"We'd rather have a cruise...and it might as well be a good long one....and I don't like those ports as much as these....and a balcony room would really be great.....and we need an extra week to hang out in CA..." and soon, an 800 gift (which was waaaay too much and causing debt for the mother) has turned into 3 Grand.

"But...but...they're finally getting married.....what are they going to do in a hotel for a night or two??...they need to do something more fun....."

I have expressed my feelings in a slightly calm way and she is reconsidering.....

I'm...just....without words........

Ray...you slay me...

arbilad · Head Chef

We honeymooned in Disneyland, and had a great time.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Ros...

Do you think that the money would better be spent on you or your siblings? I'm sure it's not the same thing, but I keep thinking of the Prodigal Son...

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 12:39, 2007-01-23

TitusTodd · Senior Member

My brother has finally gotten married three times. He got what he wanted for a good while after our parents divorced because he received the brunt of our father's abuse (similar personalities clash). My mother wised up, seeing that she was enabling him to an extent and thus he was cut off. He just got married for the third time but we find out after the fact (this and the last one were in Vegas). We only see or hear from him when he needs something (last time my nephew stayed with us for a few days when his girlfriend kicked him out - I see my nephew infrequently - this was before he lost custody of his son due to not showing up at court regarding custody). The time before he borrowed one of our cars to go to Oklahoma City. Between those needs...nothing.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

The expectation your brother and his fiancee have should not go unchallenged -- they are not entitled to a free honeymoon. Free wedding at the expense of his family is even questionable. According to ettiquete (if I remember from years ago when I used to sell wedding invitations), it is the bride's responsibility to handle the wedding expenses (including a reception or the groom's family handles reception), but a honeymoon is not the financial responsibility of either the bride's or groom's families, particularly these days when most people in society are already established professionally and financially before getting married. It is the responsibility of the groom (and perhaps partially the bride). But, there are some kids with "entitlement" attitude that feel they should get the rings, wedding, reception, honeymoon, and a nice place to live all free and then use emotional manipulation to ensure family members give it to them. Besides, honeymoons are not a requirement to marriage.

Sounds very much like to me they are well on their way to a future divorce, like Bok mentioned. They want it all up front and don't want to have to work for it. Mama needs to cut the apron strings (or at least the Aunt who started it should pay for their luxury cruise...)... If they have been living together or have been living an unchaste life prior to being married, then nothing is going to fit the bill of having "something more fun" than what they already did illicitely... The purpose of a honeymoon is for the couple to get to know each other away from everyone else. It is not about spending thousands of dollars to go and see everything. And, extravagant honeymoons are really the exception rather than the norm.

Edit to add update: I guess I am soooo very wrong on the ettiquete thing... According to this site at least, everything for the couple is now supposed to be provided by one or the other of the family... http://www.wedalert.com/content/planning/expense_breakdown.asp

But then taking the link on that page, I find this and I am kind of sort of supported in what I said earlier about who pays for the honeymoon. These are the general "traditional roles"... http://www.wedalert.com/content/articles/who_pays_for_what.asp

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 14:17, 2007-01-23

Ros · Senior Member

rayb wrote:
Ros...
Do you think that the money would better be spent on you or your siblings? I'm sure it's not the same thing, but I keep thinking of the Prodigal Son...
--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 12:39, 2007-01-23

No. I think the credit card should not be charged when there is no money to repay it. I think that- knowing that unless something unexpected happens, my mother will run out of money before she passes away- the money should should not be spent at all, on anyone.

I'm not angry that my mother is "giving my inheritance away" or anything like that. If she were wealthy or had a nest egg, good for her. But she is "spending" money she doesn't have.

The fatted calf was killed for the prodigal son. How would the story differ if the house hold was barely surviving and the father went hungry and lived in the barn while the wandering son feasted on the reserves that had been so carefully budgeted to provide for them?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I'm sorry Ros. The whole family dynamic makes this so difficult. For your part there is almost nothing you can do but sit back and watch it happen. I really don't get the whole honeymoon thing either. My wife and I had zero $$$ so we ended up just going to the beach for the day and then going home. For our tenth anniversary we went to Disneyland without the kids and thought we had died and gone to heaven. I guess some people have higher expectations in life.

In the end there is little you can do about the situation. Until other family members say no to your brother, he will not change. Anyone who threatens to even not give him his way will be threatened. I'm sure if your mom told him no he would just cut her out of his life and never speak to her again which for a parent would be very difficult. I'd like to say that your's is a unique situation but sadly it is not. All you need to do is read Dear Abby or listen to Dr. Laura and you will hear the same thing over and over again. I have seen families farms and businesses ruined by stuff like this.

In the end, it is your mom's decision and her money. Unless she is incapable of making her own decisions because of some sort of mental problem, there is nothing you can do. All you can do is decide for yourself not to enable his actions and not to worry anymore about what he is doing or what your mom is doing with her money. It will drive you crazy if you don't. It's not worth fighting over and in the end it really doesn't matter. I'm sorry I could not give you more comforting words.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

What ^ "said".

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Ros. I think you have the right attitude. I think all that's left is to cheer, "Yay for sin!!"

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

salesortonscom wrote:
In the end, it is your mom's decision and her money. Unless she is incapable of making her own decisions because of some sort of mental problem, there is nothing you can do. All you can do is decide for yourself not to enable his actions and not to worry anymore about what he is doing or what your mom is doing with her money. It will drive you crazy if you don't. It's not worth fighting over and in the end it really doesn't matter. I'm sorry I could not give you more comforting words.

Sure, it may not materially impact Ros now, but what happens when her mother outlives her money, in part because she spent a big chunk of it on this undeserving boy? I highly doubt that he will be the first to step forward when mom needs a place to live. It seems likely that Ros and her other siblings will bear the burden of caring for their mother, while this yahoo continues his pursuit of his desires.

But Jason is right... other than being a voice of reason, there's not much Ros can do. Telling a woman not to worry though... You might as well reach out and pluck the moon from the sky.

Ros · Senior Member

Thank-you for letting me vent. And there is nothing I can do.

I have already moved my mother in with me. Several of her children are supplementing her income. When her money runs out, she will still be here. She just won't contribute to the budget. We will fill her fridge and quietly donate money to her account so she will feel like a viable part of society. I love her and it is an honor to serve her.

I'm guessing this feeling is similar to how my mother has felt for decades everytime one of her many children did something stupid...

This sounds like we are enablers for her foolish spending. It may be. But, she is our mother. And, it's just money.....

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Your right, she is your mom and we do have an obligation to make sure our parents aren't on the streets. Of course when the money is gone and your brother comes slumming for money, then you can make those decisions. If she is living with you and you are already caring for her, you may want to go ahead and try and get an attourney to make you and another trusted sibling guardians and power of attourney. Your mom may fight it but if she is literally spending herself into poverty and showing obviously poor judgement you probably could get it. The fact that she is now in your care to some degree shows that she is vulnerable and perhaps unable to care for herself. What your brother may be doing then in this case could be considered elder abuse especially if he is using any sort of coersion, even verbal to get her to spend money she does not have. I think the key in this case is that you have already moved her into your home which gives one the impression she is unable to fully care for herself. Caring for oneself does not just mean dressing, feeding, and doing other daily tasks for one's self. It also means being able to make prudent decisions in regards to limited retirement funds. An elderly woman who gives her retirement savings to a televangelist is obviously not able to make those decisions for themself. Neither is one who goes into serious debt for a wayward son out of pressure. Just something to consider. Like I stated, the dynamic of you moving her into your home changes the situation somewhat.

Ros · Senior Member

Sorry. Wrong impression. She lives in her apartment which is attached to my home. She is very capable of caring for herself and does. She is just horrible when it comes to money. By arranging for her to live here, we have made it easier to transition into an assisted living situation when that time comes.

Actually, I think another sibling already has power of attorney. If/when we need to use it, we will.

Which is why I was venting. Nothing to be done. Just annoyed with listening to the need to reward bad behavior--or more specifically, using that as an excuse for irresponsible choices--"He's finally getting married so even though I have no means to pay for it, I'm going to send him on a cruise."

I will admit, there are deeper issues involving my mother. Which none of you have a desire to read about.

As for me, I have been responsible my whole life. I have cared for family members since I was 12. Even when I made bad decisions, i still paid for them (literally) myself, even when I asked for help, the answer was no. And I wouldn't change a thing and I am not feeling cheated, ( I know...that's what your thinking

) I have already explored that possibility. I am still struggling to keep up, I'm putting energy into helping my family keep up( my brothers and sisters) and things like this tend to sting. And now I'm rambling.

I am so sick of taking care of everyone else. Really. Maybe tomorrow I'll feel different...

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Good for you for taking care of your mother. You are a good son.

I think you should come right out and beg her not to spend another dime on this boy.

Give her the littany of all the many, many wonderful ways she has helped him in the past. Make sure that she understands how she has gone above and beyond the call of motherly duty, and should not feel guilted into helping him, and then drop it with her. At least that way, she'll keep her bad monetary decisions out of your face as much as possible.

Then, tell your deadbeat brother (in no uncertain terms) what a putz he's being for taking money from a helpless old woman. What a jerk. It probably won't change his attitude, but he needs to be clear that what he is asking is out of line.

Ros · Senior Member

"You are a good son."

Thanks, Hoss.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Um... Ros is a woman, right?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

It's the picture of Animal from the muppets that's throwing everyone off!

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

I have to say again... that avatar makes me smile every time I see it.

arbilad · Head Chef

salesortonscom wrote:
It's the picture of Animal from the muppets that's throwing everyone off!

Just think of the phrase Animal is fond of saying "Woman! Woman!" And you'll be able to guess Ros' gender.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

And here I thought it was merely representative of when she is having a bad hair day!

Wow! The deepness of the symbology! I bow to your superior intellect!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It is tragically ironic that we get angry about strangers bilking little old ladies out of their life's savings, but when it's a parasitic child all we can sit back and watch in horror.

--Ray

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Oh yeah, and...

"Yay for sin!!"

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

I'm a big fan of the "love and logic" method of dealing with each other.

Meaning, you let the choices and behaviors drive the consequences. If choice a is really a good thing, it should carry it's own rewards. If not making choice a really is a mistake, it should carry it's own punishment.

Basically, neither choice should require a room full of opinionated relatives to make that apparent via various enabling or judgment-leveling behaviors.

(This method is rarely popular with large families who prefer providing consequences themselves.)

HSR