If it is done right, no. But, wouldn't that be the problem with any program the Church uses? Ditching scouts will not solve the problem. At least, I don't think so.
So, 1) no, 2) yes, 3) it can, and 4) if they let it and it doesn't matter when that is the attitude and dedication exerted on it. Scouting is what is made of it.
Do you believe the church should ditch the Scouting Program?
As we currently run the program, yes. The large majority of wards do not run it correctly, and are not committed to it as a viable program within the young mens program. We either need to do it correctly, as designed, or not do it at all.
Do you think it is a positive program for the church?
Yes, If done correctly.
Does it help young men prepare for missionary service?
See answer above.
Does it just scar people, and consume lots of time in volunteer service that really doesn't matter?
That can happen, if it is done as most wards currently do it.
My main problem with scouting is a minor one. Every time I go to a training or a round table, or watch a training video, I feel like they are selling something. Get the full cub uniform. Wolfs wear this kerchief, Bears this different one. Get the full Webelos uniform. Get the activity uniform. Your boys should be earning all these badges. Buy this BSA brand tent/backpack/canteen and on and on and on.
I don't see scouting as a negative. Maybe I have been lucky enough to only be in wards where it is run properly. But I have lived in many wards. Right now it is a major positive in my son's life. I agree with what others have said, though; any program, if run badly, can be detrimental. That doesn't mean that the program is bad, or should be ditched. For instance, I know of someone who started going inactive when their visiting teacher always used her visiting teaching visits as an excuse to sell tupperware. That doesn't mean that the visiting teaching program is bad (although there are those who would argue that). It means that that particular person was doing the program poorly. Anyway, what would you replace it with? You can't replace it with nothing. Young men need activity. And I haven't seen another program that maintains the high moral standards of the Boy Scouts, yet has such a large and diverse collection of activities, leadership training programs, etc. I don't think that anyone here is seriously suggesting that it would be easier for someone who doesn't have the time to make the scouting program work to come up with, on their own, a wide range of activities and get togethers, training, literature, etc.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
You replace the scouting program with more emphasis on the Duty to God program. Seems the YW have managed all these yrs without a Girl Scout program of activities. There is plenty of activity ideas in the Duty to God, the YM leaders just need to be a little more creative. In our ward they only "work" on Duty to God on Sundays and they say that by doing scouting they are checking off some of the Duty to God requirements. Well, my opinion is that DtG should be foremost and and the emphasis put there, not pass something off the DtG list by default through scouting.
Young men in the church in other countries where scouting is not organized seem to do just fine in learning basic skills through the DtG program. Scouting is not the only place to learn leadership skills, especially if the Aaronic Phd quroums are run properly.
You replace the scouting program with more emphasis on the Duty to God program. Seems the YW have managed all these yrs without a Girl Scout program of activities. There is plenty of activity ideas in the Duty to God, the YM leaders just need to be a little more creative. In our ward they only "work" on Duty to God on Sundays and they say that by doing scouting they are checking off some of the Duty to God requirements. Well, my opinion is that DtG should be foremost and and the emphasis put there, not pass something off the DtG list by default through scouting.
Young men in the church in other countries where scouting is not organized seem to do just fine in learning basic skills through the DtG program. Scouting is not the only place to learn leadership skills, especially if the Aaronic Phd quroums are run properly.
Actually, the young women's program is sorely lacking in being relevant to young women in today's North America. My neice got her young women't award at 15. That is how easy it is for an intelligent, motivated girl. She continued attending out of obedience, but was eventually (in her late teens) dragged away from attendance at young women's by work (caring for handicapped people) and other worthy activities.
My neice would have loved the opportunity to learn about camping, journalism, photography, chemistry, art, environmental science, swimming, or anything interesting. Instead, she was basically told over and over "you need to grow up and be a wife and mommy, and you'll learn that by becoming good at hair, makeup, quilt making, fashion shows, and eating. Lots of eating."
While Duty to God is an excellent program, it is too snoresville to be the UNIQUE focus for males. Sorry to be so blunt about it, but boys are different than girls. They need some reason to be there besides just duty. The scout, varsity, and venturing programs fill that need. With Duty to God and Scouting combined, the Young Men's program is a magnificent opportunity to serve and to learn, and is clearly superior to anything the world at large has to offer.
I do not agree that youth in non-scouting countries are doing just fine. If you think our youth fall away too frequently, you should see the problem in some of the European countries.
You replace the scouting program with more emphasis on the Duty to God program. Seems the YW have managed all these yrs without a Girl Scout program of activities. There is plenty of activity ideas in the Duty to God, the YM leaders just need to be a little more creative. In our ward they only "work" on Duty to God on Sundays and they say that by doing scouting they are checking off some of the Duty to God requirements. Well, my opinion is that DtG should be foremost and and the emphasis put there, not pass something off the DtG list by default through scouting.
Young men in the church in other countries where scouting is not organized seem to do just fine in learning basic skills through the DtG program. Scouting is not the only place to learn leadership skills, especially if the Aaronic Phd quroums are run properly.
Actually, the young women's program is sorely lacking in being relevant to young women in today's North America. My neice got her young women't award at 15. That is how easy it is for an intelligent, motivated girl. She continued attending out of obedience, but was eventually (in her late teens) dragged away from attendance at young women's by work (caring for handicapped people) and other worthy activities.
My neice would have loved the opportunity to learn about camping, journalism, photography, chemistry, art, environmental science, swimming, or anything interesting. Instead, she was basically told over and over "you need to grow up and be a wife and mommy, and you'll learn that by becoming good at hair, makeup, quilt making, fashion shows, and eating. Lots of eating."
While Duty to God is an excellent program, it is too snoresville to be the UNIQUE focus for males. Sorry to be so blunt about it, but boys are different than girls. They need some reason to be there besides just duty. The scout, varsity, and venturing programs fill that need. With Duty to God and Scouting combined, the Young Men's program is a magnificent opportunity to serve and to learn, and is clearly superior to anything the world at large has to offer.
I do not agree that youth in non-scouting countries are doing just fine. If you think our youth fall away too frequently, you should see the problem in some of the European countries.
-- Edited by Hoss Cartwright at 07:47, 2006-12-14
I couldn't have said it better myself Hoss. The scouting program for all it's problems was a key factor in my development. I was fortunate to have good leaders and I learned more in scouting during my pre-teen and teen years than anywhere else. I also agree on your assessment of the YW's program. I feel it is also lacking in prepairing young women for the challenges they will face. My sister ended up joining an outside girls organization where she could develope the tallents she had. She is now in an excellerated masters program at a major university. She wanted to be in leadership positions where she could actually plan and lead activities, fundraisers, and other opportunities for growth that she could not get in young womens. Both my sisters disliked the young women program because it was nothing more than what you described Hoss. The Duty to God program has been a complete failure in my opinion. It was introduced when I was a YM's president. It is seriously lacking in the skills that are learned in scouting. The parents and young men rejected it as just another program to distract them from scouting. The awards and recognition are paltry in the Duty to God program. I was released a few months after it was introduced and had absolutely zero interest in the program when I left. To this day we have not had one young man complete the program. There is no parental support for a program that is seen as Scouting without the fun or skills.
Scouting was the best thing to ever happen to me. Both my brother and I were Eagle Scouts and have benefited enormously from experience. It has helped us in our higher education and career pursuits. I still use the skills today that I learned back then.
If the church is not happy about the direction the scouts are going in then the church has enough units and clout to make the scouts change. With as many sponsored units as the church has the power really rests with us.
Many YW programs I have seen do a great job of getting the YW involved in many different activities that go above and beyond the formalized program.
Duty to God is not enough for the YM so their activities would have to be fleshed out either formally or not.
I actually like how the scouting program often gets our YM involved with those outside of the Church doing worthwhile activities (for the most part). That interaction seems lacking in the YW program. Maybe its not important. After all, the YM and YW get plenty of interaction with others at school.
I don't have time to comment right now, but will later. Good points and comments have been made, and when I get the time later (probably tomorrow), I'll throw my two cents in as well.
For now, those of you who don't know me, suffice it to say I'm an Eagle Scout with palm, my brother is an Eagle Scout, my Dad only made it to Second Class (but he was a Scouter as an adult and understood and knew and understood the value of it in the Young Men's program as a Bishop and strongly supported it). My brother has been a troop committee chair, and has been a Scoutmaster for probably 5 years now, I've been on a troop committee for several years, and for the past year have been an Assistant Scoutmaster.
Girl Scouts, unfortunately, does not measure up to the Boy Scout program. We tried it one year with one of our daughters, and she said she got more out of Activity Day stuff for the pre-teen girls in Primary. The Boy Scout program provides a variety of opportunities and experiences for young men to learn values and principles in the Gospel in an environment that is better suited for most young men than a classroom. Boys and girls are different in how they learn and how they respond to teaching moments.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
brief response to crazymom's comment: The Duty To God program can not replace all the aspects that Scouting brings in. Scouting IS the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood in the US. It is not ancillary, but integral to the Aaronic Priesthood quorums. When the quorums are run properly, there is no disconnect between the two. In the US, Scouting is an extension of what goes on on Sunday. In my opinion, in areas of the Church (whether in the US or outside) where Scouting is not utilized or is not implemented properly, the cohesiveness of the Aaronic Priesthood quorums is not as great. That in turn makes it harder for the boys to be cohesive as men in Melchizidek Priesthood quorums. The Duty To God program helps a young man to learn his duty and to practice service as an individual, but Scouting helps the young men to learn how to be a quorum outside of the 3 hour block of meetings.
brief response to bok's comment: I know what you mean as to the ongoing "costs". My oldest son will be 16 next month. Unfortunately for me, due to his mental disability, he has never been involved in cub scouts or scouts. And that hurts far worse as a Dad than the expense of outfitting him and teaching him how to partially outfit himself. I have to wait another 4 years before my other son is even old enough to start cubs. By the time he is old enough to go on campouts with the Scouts, I'll be in my late 40's, pushing 50. The uniforms, manuals, awards, etc., are not cheap. But, they are an integral part of the Scouting experience, and an investment I am more than willing to make for my boys (my own sons and the sons of the other families in our ward that I can help influence for the good through Scouting). We as parents and leaders don't have qualms about the expense of missions and the "uniforms" for that, or for education and career and the "uniforms" for that, or for the blessings of the temple and the "uniforms" for that... It is all an investment and sacrifice. That is the attitude I try to keep with the expenses that arise for Scouting. Thankfully, Mrs. Cat Herder is supportive of me in this, despite her family she grew up in not having a good experience with Scouting in their ward (only one of her three brothers earned Eagle or were even terribly interested in Scouts as a young man). There are ways to mitigate some of the expense for continually outgrowing a cub or scout uniform (like the troop / pack maintaining a store of used uniforms that parents donate outgrown ones to and take from as needed), but few wards do this, and I don't understand why.
Hoss, TT, and salesortonscom: Great comments!
In a longer commentary on what I saw being discussed this morning on Nauvoo on the scouting thread there... namely, about removing the Eagle award for a boy who has earned it if later on it is found he has not lived up to the honor.
It was stated Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle. This is the philosophy, and the ideal. In order for this philosophy (as well as the commitment to the values taught by Scouting) to take hold in a young man, he needs to be involved in Scouts from an inward plane, and not just show up to meetings and earn some merit badges and get requirements signed off. This is where parents active and enthusiastic support of the program is as important as having good Scout leaders and a committed Bishop. My personal belief is that the push to have boys get Eagle by the time they are 14 (so that we don't lose them) is the worst thing that could happen for a boy in helping to instill that commitment and understanding of the values. The commitment comes with maturity. I have met very few 14 year old boys who are spiritually mature enough to really understand what it means to be an Eagle Scout. There is a vast difference in maturity level between an 11 year old Blazer Scout, a boy who has just turned 14 and is entering the Teachers Quorum and has just finished up his Eagle, a 16 year old who has finished up his Eagle, and the Priest who is 17 just about 18 who has stuck with the program despite all the distractions of being a teenage boy and has finished off the Eagle requirements. Typically, at least in the Church in my experience, boys who have earned their Eagle as soon as they are old enough to have met all the time requirements are those who as men either try to rush the boys through or as leaders or Dads don't put as much stock in instilling the value system in the boys. Those boys who earn it honestly as older teens are typically the ones who understand the value of the program as adult leaders and fathers without the need for an epiphany. Being an Eagle Scout is all about actually living the values. The requirements to earn the rank are simply the preparation to be at that level. With each rank advancement, boys are supposed to be grilled by the Scoutmaster (and committee) as to how they are actually demonstrating Scout Spirit and living the Scout Law, Oath, Slogan, and Motto in their daily lives.
In the ideal situation, when a young man (not his parents and not his leaders) has finished the requirements, he will have lived his life in such a way that when he becomes an Eagle Scout (and not just earns the award), then there is (or at least should be) no fear that boy is going to do anything to dishonor the rest of the men and boys who are Eagle Scouts or the Boy Scout program. Being an Eagle Scout is an honor that is earned. It is more than just a rank (which in the military can be removed for misconduct). As another stated, once it is earned, it can not be removed (unless possibly it is shown and proven that it was not actually earned or earned honestly). Earning the Eagle Scout Award is not a guarantee of what the young man will later do or become in life, but it should be viewed as a litmus test of the man's character, for the Eagle Scout Charge given to every boy who earns it is very much like an oath or covenant to live in such a way to bring honor to Scouting by how he lives. Those who are familiar with Scouting can use that as a point to discern the individual as they know what the expectation is. If a man or boy does not live up to that, he suffers his own repercussions as a result. Taking away his Eagle award would not likely result in anything meaningful.
Think of the man who several years ago who caused the really big court case against the Scouts that ultimately went before the Supreme Court because they fired him when he revealed he actively lived and promoted homosexual lifestyle. He had earned the rank of Eagle, and he was using that to bandy about that he was never taught in all his years as a Scout or camp counselor or adult leader that being morally straight meant just that in the BSA... he tried to argue that it meant something else. He is one who likewise should have the award stripped from him, but the fact is he never was an Eagle in his heart, and that is probably something that was not ascertained by those who were doing his Eagle board years before. While it is rare (since the BSA wants folks to focus on if they fulfilled the requirements), an Eagle Board of Review can deny the awarding of the rank and award if they do not all concur the boy is ready for it. There needs to be a certain level of maturity, particularly in LDS troops since the boys are usually all Aaronic Priesthood holders as well.
The problem with men who do not live in such a way to add honor to the rank / award and Scouting as adults when the earned Eagle as boys is the exact same problem with men or young men who do not honor the priesthood they are ordained to. Either they do not / did not understand the responsibility or they do not / did not take it seriously. As was said in the other forum, it is a slippery slope to start stripping the award from those who later do not live up to it. Even with the Priesthood, it is not removed from a man as mere punishment for commiting sin... it is removed as a consequence of gross sin that requires excommunication as part of the repentance process. And, when the man has repented properly, it as well as any other blessings he had are restored by the proper authorities.
Oh, to answer your original questions Ray: 1. No; 2. Yes; 3. Yes; 4. Scouting doesn't scar people... people scar people... but if literally taken, I think every man or boy who has been a Scout will have come through the experience with at least one scar on his body somewhere... six words come to mind... boys with knives, boys with matches...
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Regarding those who go astray in some way after achieving the rank of Eagle:
Sometimes I think that the process of earning that rank can give them that extra power that puts them over the top, and gives them whatever extra push they need to return to the straight and narrow.
But that's Hoss chapter 1 verse 23. Treat it like the apocrypha.
Regarding those who go astray in some way after achieving the rank of Eagle:
Sometimes I think that the process of earning that rank can give them that extra power that puts them over the top, and gives them whatever extra push they need to return to the straight and narrow.
But that's Hoss chapter 1 verse 23. Treat it like the apocrypha.
I think you might be right Hoss. My uncle (not a member) went to prison when I was a kid for taking a bunch of drugs and beating up his landlord. He was an Eagle scout. He was college educated even. He got out of prison when I was in my early teens and got his life straitened out. He has held down a good job and kept his nose clean ever since. Maybe, what he learned in scouting helped him. I like to think that it helped me when I strayed off the strait and narrow.
