Cry Me a River, Iman

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Cry Me a River, Iman

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

i have to wonder why we don't report on the thousands of times an Islamic person has successfully traveled on an airplane here in the US, since 9-11. --Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

i have to wonder why we don't report on the thousands of times an Islamic person has successfully traveled on an airplane here in the US, since 9-11. --Ray

As a sort of aside, I don't see a problem with profiling, if done correctly. If the vast majority of acts of terrorism are committed by muslims, why not subject them to greater scrutiny? Granted, probably 99.9% of muslims probably don't approve of terrorist activities. But, as a prominent muslim figure said (unfortunately I forget who), "While not all muslims are terrorists, most terrorists are muslim."
Profiling is a useful tool in spotting terrorists. El Al does it, and there's no more inviting target than a jewish airline.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, I guess it is alright for people to get all up in arms about a mother and family being asked to get off a plane for not following the flight attendant's instructions to use a blanket to cover up while nursing, but it is not alright for a group of people to roll out their prayer rugs and pray publicly and hence it is wrong for people to get up in arms about their being asked to get off the plane.

I just find it a bit of a double standard for it to be an outrage against rights in one instance and in the other breath we all take the attitude essentially of "well, you got what you deserved you religious zealots" for essentially both instances being examples of individuals making some stupid decisions in the light of today's security environment.

http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20061127/D8LLJ3481.html

Let's see, the supporters of the mother have held a number of "nurse-ins" at various airports... the supporters of the imams have now held at least one "pray-in" in Washington D.C. and probably more will follow... What next? A "makeout-in" for supporters of the amorous couple on that flight from LA to South Carolina that was taken into custody for failure to comply with a flight attendant's instructions and making a threat against a flight crew member? How about a "luggage-in" for those who are tired of getting their luggage damaged or lost, or maybe a "barf-in" for those who get air sick and would like it to stop, or maybe a "white noise-in" for those who have lost their hearing due to the sounds of jet engines...

I personally can not comment as to the impact being profiled may have on someone. I know we have friends who had some "minor" difficulty flying in the aftermath of 9-11 because of their last name and because of the ethnicity of one of them... despite the fact they were good citizens and members of the church... Does profiling occur? Yes. It is a necessity, unfortunately in the current climate. Right, wrong, or indifferent. It is nothing new, it is just something we have been immune from for so many years.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

But there should be certain basic human rights when it comes to the human breast.

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, it's all a matter of context. The US hasn't been subjected to bands of extremist breast feeders who are plotting to overthrow the US. Muslim extremists have. If the rest of Islam had tried, for instance, denouncing the terrorists, people might be less upset about overt displays of religion on airplanes.
A gun, as you've so rightly pointed out in a story you posted, is a very useful tool. But in the wrong context it can be extremely alarming. How long do you think, for instance, someone would stay out of jail if they walked into an endowment room openly carrying a gun?
You do have a point that they shouldn't be prosecuted. The flight crew shouldn't have that much power. But throwing them off the plane, without charges, is a perfectly acceptable solution.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

You are right that it is all a matter of context. My point was simply that sometimes we forget the context of what we do things in. In this environment, there is going to be an outrage in the international community calling it discriminatory and the typical American cowboy mentality with regards to the reaction, and as a result of the outcry, there will eventually be a reaction in the opposite direction to be more "sensitive" when politicians start feeling the pain. As far as I can tell, the men had not failed to follow any instructions by the flight crew. They simply made passengers nervous. I don't blame others for being nervous, though. I live in an area with perhaps one of the largest concentrations of middle eastern ethnic groups in the country. There have been a number of individuals found to be questionable in our general area. And, try as I might not to, I find myself initially nervous and being wary when I see two or more younger men clearly of ethnic decent from that area speaking in their native tongues while shopping at the store.

There is probably a better way to react to this sort of incident than the general "so what" sort of reaction and heaping of general guilt by indirect association as expressed in Hoss' honest opinion of frustration. What it is, I don't know. Maybe it is found somewhere in the Gospel.

And through this very conundrum of primary, secondary and tertiary reactions phenomena is where those who wish to do us harm will likely find their chink in the security armor to be successful. Isn't this similar to the way the ancient gadiantans were able to do their deeds and be protected to some extent by the law in so doing?

Example, that guy Mahdi al Sadr (the Shiite cleric guy with his private militia army that has fought the US in Iraq on at least two seperate occasions)... How many of us knew that he was wanted on murder charges from (as I've understood) before the Iraq war started in a foreign country? How many of us knew (not just suspected) prior to the recent revelation that the guy has been receiving support and training for his army from Hezbollah? I heard this morning on Fox that it is believed that upwards of 2 or 3 thousand of his militia have had Hezbollah training, many both in Iraq and in Lebanon. But, no body has the resolve to go and take this guy out because of the "influence" he holds. Yet every week that goes by, his band of gadiantans become ever more entrenched and "respected"...

Oh well, I probably don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just speaking off the cuff. I just found it kind of interesting and ironic at how we can take similar incidents and apply a different standard towards them.

palmon · Senior Member

As far as I can tell, the men had not failed to follow any instructions by the flight crew. They simply made passengers nervous.

It was a bit more than that. 2 of the men asked to be upgraded to 1st class but were told there were no more upgrades available. Yet, they managed to find seats in the forward section of first class. Two moved to the emergency exit seats and the remainder, to the back of the plane. Sound familiar? One or two of them asked for seat belt extentions, but then just stored them beneath the seat. The explaination for the movement of seats was that they didn't want to make anyone nervous by sitting together. IMO, that behaviour deserves what it got.WashingtonTimes Article

-- Edited by palmon at 01:25, 2006-11-29

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Well, that little bit of information that was included in Washington Post article, which was not in the original reporting, makes all the difference now, doesn't it?

It almost sounds like purposely putting things in a no-win situation... do something about suspicious behaviour, and we'll cry foul and make a stink to where potentially under a "friendlier" government in the US we can later get away with this again... or don't do anything and this could very well end up being a probe to see if the chance for putting another attack through could work...

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat Herder wrote:

Well, that little bit of information that was included in Washington Post article, which was not in the original reporting, makes all the difference now, doesn't it?

It almost sounds like purposely putting things in a no-win situation... do something about suspicious behaviour, and we'll cry foul and make a stink to where potentially under a "friendlier" government in the US we can later get away with this again... or don't do anything and this could very well end up being a probe to see if the chance for putting another attack through could work...

I thought that too, cat. Where they really trying to execute a terrorist attack, or trying to get us to act in a manner they could call racist so that we could lower our defenses?

I'll tell you one thing; if I was on the plane with those imams, I'd beg to be let off if they didn't take them off. I have no fear of the afterlife, but I feel no need to hasten my arrival.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

It sure would be smart. One of the common threads about a lot of America is that we have a desperate need to be loved, and to be thought of as "good" and "fair" and "caring." Being called racist or insensitive is just like kryptonite to us.

So, we're mean to some Imam's. They cry foul. We beg forgiveness, and lower or standards.

Or we spend so much time on airport security that we forget to protect against dirty bombs, or subtle radiation poisoning like that which was done to the former KGB agent in Britain.

Could they be that smart?

-- Edited by Hoss Cartwright at 13:18, 2006-11-30