Why isn't the ACLU all over this one?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Why isn't the ACLU all over this one?

Melissa · Veteran Member

Ooh, this one gets my blood boiling. Including your response, CH.

First of all, 22 months is not too old to not be weaned. It's not the norm, but it's perfectly acceptable, healthy and natural for a child to nurse that long and beyond.

It's not just the woman's right to feed the child, it's also about the child's right to be fed. I can almost guarantee you that nobody on that flight except the uptight flight attendant probably had any idea she was even nursing. (Okay, except her husband.) Secondly, a blanket? Over a 22 month old? Are you kidding? The kid would likely fight it and pull it off. My kids were done with blankets by 4 months. No use fighting them. It's less modest when you think you're covered and then suddenly peekaboo! Anyone who has been nursing for 22 months has it down to where you can nurse and not even be noticed. Also, I always found that it made it more noticeable to have a blanket draped over your shoulder. As long as you have the whole latching on thing down, you can be more discreet without the big over-the-shoulder announcement. "Hey! Look at me! I'm nursing under here!" Just because she wasn't using a blanket doesn't mean she wasn't being modest.

I think she has every right to pursue legal action in this case. It's riddiculous for her to have to fight for the already established right to breastfeed wherever she needed to. Especially since the flight had been delayed and the kid was surely hungry and grouchy.

Ugh. This drives me crazy.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ditto everything Melissa said! All of our children have been breastfed to at least 12 months. And for the first two, my wife was a militant card-carryin' member of La Leche League. And I am totally supportive.

A similar situation happened a while back. A breastfeeding mom was asked to leave a shopping mall even though she had a blanket and was completely covered. The thing is, she was sitting on a bench outside the Victoria's Secret entrance, and the juxtaposition of the almost-porn displays in the window and a real live breastfeeding woman was just too much for someone to handle, so they called security.

I guess breasts on public display are acceptable as long as they're just ads for lingerie, or maybe real ones are okay in public as long as they're barely covered by the latest from Abercrombie. Heaven forbid that someone should witness that picosecond flash of non-descript skin during latch-on.

-- Edited by Roper at 23:00, 2006-11-14

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think you've hit upon something, Roper. Perhaps breasts are not to be displayed on television when they are used in their natural biological purpose... only when they are the object of lust are they appropriate for television.

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Melissa wrote:

Ooh, this one gets my blood boiling. Including your response, CH.

[moderator hat] Don't get yer knickers in a knot, Melissa. The reason for my posting this was not to start an irrational emotional outrage response to this event, as seems to be common in other venues to this sort of topic. [/moderator hat]

[non-moderator hat back on]

As to the weaning of children, 4 out of 5 of the mini-Cat Herders were all either self-weaned or of necessity weaned by Mrs. Cat Herder before hitting 22 months, so I'm just speaking from the Cat Herder experience here. Heaven forbid I should take the name of the La Leche League in vain...

Remember, you were not there on the plane. I was not there on the plane. I don't think anyone here in the forum was there on the plane, so for anyone to make the claim that they can assure this or that about what happened is more than a little over the top. Also, the lady and family who were told to disembark from the plane prior to take off were not from Vermont... they were from New Mexico and had been visiting Vermont, so how pray tell, is it they are so knowledgeable about Vermont law?

Did anyone happen to catch the other similar news story out yesterday? The incident I mentioned in starting this thread was actually the lesser of the two as far as publicity goes. I purposely did not mention the more widely publicized story because I wanted to see if any of you saw the underlying correlary between the two incidents.

Melissa · Veteran Member

The part of your response that bothered me, CH is that you called the woman an idiot for not graciously accepting the offer of a blanket. That and reducing the issue to a rolleyes type issue, when I think it was a pretty big deal bothered me.

It is absurd that any woman be asked to disembark an airplane because she refuses to use a blanket while nursing. Of course I wasn't on the plane, but the article clearly states that the woman was by the window with her husband next to her. For someone to see what she was doing, they'd have to be purposely paying attention to her. I've nursed in that very position on an airplane, only the man next to me was unfortunately not my husband. I did my best to turn toward the window and be discreet. Sometimes the kid just needs to nurse. As an airplane passenger, wouldn't you rather have a woman nursing her baby than listen to that baby cry and fuss because his/her needs are being put off due to it not being convienent?

What about my post did you find irrational? Passionate, yes. Irrational? Hmm.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It does seem to be rather extreme punishment for something most of us should probably keep our noses out of... It's really a hands-off topic... We shouldn't be looking into it anymore... I think we've squeezed this particular discussion quite enough, thankyou...

--Ray

Btw, Cat, Personally, a part of me thinks women should be free to bear their breasts in public... but I am fairly certain that comes from my irrational emotional side... :)

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

My use of the verbage "ya idiot" was simply to point out that the lady's decision to refuse the order of the flight attendant was not very smart and perhaps rash. The reason she and her family were asked to disembark the plane was not because she was breast feeding, but because she refused the order of a member of the flight crew.

My opening of the thread as I did was not an invitation to righteous indignation or to jump down my throat. The topic is a bit more indepth than whether a woman has the right to nurse without a blanket on a commercial airline.

Since no one else has mentioned the other story yet that has been metioned in national tv broadcast news... Here it is:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,229281,00.html

Can anyone see the correlation now?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Come now, Cat, I think you've milked this thread for about all you can get out of it... --Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

rayb wrote:

Btw, Cat, Personally, a part of me thinks women should be free to bear their breasts in public... but I am fairly certain that comes from my irrational emotional side... :)

No, more likely from one of your previous live's as an ancient priestess to the snake goddess on Crete during the Minoan era...

TitusTodd · Senior Member

Btw, Cat, Personally, a part of me thinks women should be free to bear their breasts in public... but I am fairly certain that comes from my irrational emotional side... :)

Would it suprise you that I thought the same thing? Actually, it seems to me that some need to get over breasts being such a sexual object in a non-sexual setting. I agree with Ray's comment ...

I think you've hit upon something, Roper. Perhaps breasts are not to be displayed on television when they are used in their natural biological purpose... only when they are the object of lust are they appropriate for television.

...which was in response to comments from Roper that I agree with. I also agree with Melissa's comments.

Is it just me or does it seem a lot of those who complain are women? I've noticed to rolled eyes and such at times when my wife or others are breast feeding and it mostly comes from women. Are they jealous? Do they not want their man seeing even the slightest hint of breasts on another woman?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I would just like to say that this thread was thoroughly, and perhaps irrevocably, derailed from the first response on.

Can I just say, I love you guys... and not in some weird sort of way, but in that awkward male one-arm bear hug firm pat behind the shoulder blade kind of way...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I confess to wanting to derail the thread... I confess the need to discuss such things kinda funny... and jiggly... I think the flight crew overreacted. I honestly think it has little to do with the woman's breasts and more to do with the fact that a lot of people, when the get on an airplane immediately FREAK OUT if they have to sit next to a child or baby. People in our society currently hate children in public. Children are to be placed in little boxes somewhere, and out of site in public.

I'll bet some idiot was nitpicking against this woman, because she had a baby. Of course it may be that the woman was using her baby like a club to beat people over the head. I've seen people use their children as a way to gloat or look down on others, and that's equally stupid, but honestly... I see it more the otherway... especially if the baby was fussing, what better way to shut it up, than to breastfeed it, and of course the person sitting nearby would be all, "OH Great! Fussing baby! Why me? I'm a victim."

I was reminded of this when we went to a restaurant just recently and all the scowls and the waitresses's attitudes as soon as they see you've got a baby in a carseat... even when the baby made no audible sounds.

--Ray

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Okay, so we have two incidents on airplanes: in one, a couple is indecent and verbally abusive and are in trouble with the law; in the other, a family was asked to leave the airplane because the mother refused a blanket while nursing, and is now suing.

So? The guy who threatened the flight attendant seems more like an idiot than the breastfeeding mother who declined to use a blanket. I wonder why you called her one but not him.

Exactly what is your point? Since apparently I am too idiotic to get it, you'll have to spell it out for me.

arbilad · Head Chef

Keep it civil people. There is a lot of emotion on this subject.
One thing to realize is that there are many different situations. For one thing, not to put too fine a point on it, breast size enters into the question. It can be especially challenging to nurse in public when the woman in question is very well endowed. But when the kid is hungry, he's hungry. I personally think that a kid's need to eat is greater than someone else's need not to see a naked breast, or part of one.
As to the incidents in question, I can't answer because I haven't had time yet to read the articles.

trooperswife · Member

I fail to see the correlation between the 2 stories. They are completely different.

One is sexual, the other is not. At. All.

I gotta tell you, this is waaaaay into the whole calling evil good and good evil. Not by anyone here, just by America in general.

Women all but naked, writhing around in slow motion for VS ads? Good! They are liberated! They are comfortable in their sexuality!

Woman feeding her child? Evil! Indecent! Forcing others to SEE her womanly-ness!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

bokbadok wrote:

Okay, so we have two incidents on airplanes: in one, a couple is indecent and verbally abusive and are in trouble with the law; in the other, a family was asked to leave the airplane because the mother refused a blanket while nursing, and is now suing.

So? The guy who threatened the flight attendant seems more like an idiot than the breastfeeding mother who declined to use a blanket. I wonder why you called her one but not him.

Exactly what is your point? Since apparently I am too idiotic to get it, you'll have to spell it out for me.

Well, at least someone has recognized there were two incidents on airplanes. Now can anyone see what the issue here is? Does anyone care? That is why I brought the subject up.

Why didn't I call the couple idiots (the couple on the flight from LA)? Because I didn't reference that particular article. And yes, they were just as big (perhaps bigger idiots) than the mother who was nursing her child. They all were idiots because of how they reacted on their respective flight to the member of the flight crew.

Let me spell it out then... under the new anti-terrorism laws and particular aspects of how the Patriot Act has been implemented, apparently it looks like once you enter an airport, particularly after boarding a plane, you can be charged with a crime for something as mundane as refusing to follow the instructions of a flight attendant. Okay, well, that seems to make sense. We don't want people causing anarchy or anything like that on a plane from a security standpoint. But a member of a flight crew is hardly a law enforcement official, yet they are in effect given carte blanc in application of law. A member of a flight crew is not going to be looking at things objectively, particularly if they are having a bad day or are in a bad mood. What? A flight attendant not in a good mood? No way Cat, whether they are men or women, they are always cheerful and perky. Not bloody likely. I've seen some down right irritable and plain old b****y attendants (both sexes as well) in my limited experience of air travel over the years. I've had some practically bite my head off just for pressing the call button during cross country red-eye flights to ask what time it was so I could reset my watch or to ask if I could move to another seat (on a flight that was non-stop and only 1/3 full) or to say after in the air on a packed holiday flight "that child is too big to be sitting on your lap, it doesn't matter if the child is still under the age requirement for being ticketed, you should have purchased a seat for the child" (as if that was going to make you any happier, Mr. Jerk Flight Attendant).

The point is that in the case of the couple, others on the plane ostensibly complained about them. Okay, it was probably justified. Why not just ask them directly to please refrain? Oh no, can't do that... that would indicate I'm being offended by their behavior. Anonymity is so much safer. Maybe they were intoxicated. Okay. That could explain the lack of civility on their part, and good that the attendant refused to serve them any further alcoholic beverage. In any event, the fact the man hinted at a threat to the attendant was ultimately what landed them in custody. And this after apparently the couple ceased to refrain from the objectionable behavior for the rest of the cross country flight.

With the mother nursing, though, few of the details were published, only that she was asked to leave the plane with her family after telling the flight attendant she would not use a blanket to cover up. Was someone around them uncomfortable? Possibly and probably, so maybe they likewise complained to the attendant out of ear reach to the family. Had she and her family refused to disembark the plane, they would have been taken off and placed in custody.

Now, liken this to yourself... or better yet, let me liken it to my family's situation, and thereby maybe the point will be a bit easier to see. The last time I flew was a month before 9-11. I haven't had the need to since August of 2001. Anyway, my family and I had flown out to Las Vegas to visit family. The Mrs. and I were travelling with three children, the oldest of which was a 9 1/2 year old autistic boy. Despite the fact he had been given extra medications to relax and sedate him, he was still miserable the whole flight. He cried nearly the whole time. He disturbed everyone around us. The flight back a week later was even worse because he had developed an ear infection while there and his ear drum had ruptured the night before the flight. In today's climate, and because he is now almost 16 years old, adult sized and very strong, he and we would be asked to leave the plane because of disturbing other passengers, and possibly because a flight attendant in a bad mood who didn't want to deal with the discomfort level of us on a cross country trip or who may feel threatened by the fact one of the passengers is a mentally disabled individual. And if we refused to disembark, we would be removed from the plane and put into custody. And, it would be perfectly legal to do so under the pretexts of aspects of The Patriot Act, apparently.

Any questions?

What is the next behavior or situation that will get one removed from a plane? You smell a bit because you didn't shower that morning, or someone doesn't like the cologne or perfume you are wearing... you are larger than the average sized person... you are traveling with children... you try to strike up a conversation with the individual next to you... you mention that you are *gasp* Mormon... you're in a bad mood yourself and a flight attendant doesn't like the attitude in the response you give to a question...

palmon · Senior Member

IMHO, a child that is 22 months old is old enough to a. eat solid food b. drink from a cup. It is NOI the same as a newborn or an old BABY. The complaining people probably would not have said a word in that case. Yeah I know, "it's natural" yadda yadda yadda. That is not the point. The point is that the toddler was much older than a normal nursing baby. Our culture is becoming very sensitive to child molestation and nursing the child caused anxiety to the fellow passengers.

Considering how cramped flights are and that someone had complained - it seems to me the solution would be get the kid a cup of juice. Yes, she has the "right", but the class act would be to be mindful of those around you and act accordingly. I know it can be done - I've had years of experience.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

most of us should probably keep our noses out of... It's really a hands-off topic... We shouldn't be looking into it anymore... I think we've squeezed this particular discussion quite enough, thankyou...

Cat, I think you've milked this thread for about all you can get out of it

Just quickly checking this thread before I head off to class. Ray, you're so naughty, and yet so likeable. (Note: I did not say lickable.)

cheers,

roper

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Just quickly checking this thread before I head off to class. Ray, you're so naughty, and yet so likeable.

Yeah, and he didn't have to resort to talking about the flying insects who say boo either!

arbilad · Head Chef

Cat, on the issue of flight crews having too much legal power, I am in total agreement with you.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat, you blow me away.

First you start out with this vague paragraph that contains several inflammatory, opinion based statements:

"...first, 22 months is a bit old to not be weaned; second, you may have the "right" to nurse in public, but that doesn't remove the need to still show some modesty... it ain't like yer there with a bunch of friends and relatives... graciously accept and try to use the blanket, ya idiot, instead of claiming rights. Then of course, "Sorry sir, but we're gonna have to ask you all to get off this plane cuz yer woman is feeding yer baby and you've been sitting here for a long time and the flight attendant is upset at being told no after she decided she was uncomfortable or someone around you was uncomfortable with what was clearly an act of uncooth behaviour. Please, don't make a scene or we'll have the air marshalls on ya..."

Then you put on your moderating hat, and righteously declare:

"Don't get yer knickers in a knot, Melissa. The reason for my posting this was not to start an irrational emotional outrage response to this event, as seems to be common in other venues to this sort of topic."

If you hadn't intended for people to be outraged, why call someone an idiot? Don't blame Melissa for feeling anger over a dumb thing you said.

Then basically tell us we're all clueless, and hint at your superior intellect with this:

"The topic is a bit more indepth than whether a woman has the right to nurse without a blanket on a commercial airline."

And we continue to wait for you to share your gnostic wisdom while Ray makes punny cracks.

Finally, FINALLY, in your last long post (the post I have been waiting for), you reveal your personal feelings and fears about the Patriot Act and all that it entails. Good job. Starting your thread out with words like "idiot" certainly garnered more attention and made this thread longer than it would have if you had just stated your opinion forthrightly at the beginning.

I do agree with your concerns about the loss of our liberties we have suffered (and will continue to suffer) for the sake of security. I just get annoyed when people communicate vaguely, and then blame other people for misunderstanding.

Maybe in the future I'll just ignore all of your posts, except the long ones.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The only Freedoms and Liberties we will ever lose as Americans will be those we voluntarilly give up.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

And I assume that's why the nursing lady is suing: she isn't gonna roll over and take being bullied by an ornery flight attendant who was having a bad day.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

salesortonscom wrote:

The only Freedoms and Liberties we will ever lose as Americans will be those we voluntarilly give up.

Agreed. Right now we're giving up a lot of them in the name of security. And once lost, they're impossible to regain without some kind of revolution.

Yeah, I know who I sound like. Go ahead and accuse me now

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Roper wrote:

salesortonscom wrote:

The only Freedoms and Liberties we will ever lose as Americans will be those we voluntarilly give up.

Agreed. Right now we're giving up a lot of them in the name of security. And once lost, they're impossible to regain without some kind of revolution.

Yeah, I know who I sound like. Go ahead and accuse me now

I'm taking the high road Roper on this one because I agree!

I hope it doesn't ever come to that but if it does I like to fall back on my old standby quote:

"God made man, Sam Colt made him equal."

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Why can't I discuss this thread without giggling? --Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Because your a red blooded american male who finds the subject boobs funny? Is ray really a deacon? Anyone know for sure? I'm expecting a fart joke next!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I cannot deny it, Jase. :)

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Yesterday was a sad day in the Roper home. Sister Roper came home from a trip to the hospital with a prescription for medicine that requires her to stop breastfeeding. There's not an alternative medicine that allows her to continue.

It's always been our goal to breastfeed for at least the first 12 months, and so far, that's worked. Baby Girl Roper is 9 months, and though she's already started some solid food, it's still going to be a rough transition, probably more for mom than for baby--it's a beautiful bond between them.

I videotaped their last feeding last night. Not to worry--I won't be sending a copy to Delta to include on their in-flight movie list.

-- Edited by Roper at 07:00, 2006-11-18

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

That's too bad Ropey... the drug thing is a big problem with nursing, and invariably my wife gets something that requires her to stop nursing before she'd like too... (in a couple instances it was that she got pregnant, which is worse than getting an illness... )

Your wife could pump and dump, until she was feeling better and done with the meds... but that's a lot of work and time.

--Ray