Provider of Poverty

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Provider of Poverty

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

As a priesthood provider for a family, Is it righteous to subject one's own family to economic poverty?

What's your definition ofpoverty? I worship and serve with good brethren who provide for their families yet their income would be classified as "below the poverty line" according to government calculations. Also, because of our standard of living in this country, what would be considered poverty here would be considered wealthy in many other places--it's a matter of perspective.

What is the priesthood obligation or duty or responsibility to provide?

A few thoughts from the proclamation:

By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families...We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God.

The language is clear--necessities not luxuries. And the warning is clear--we are accountable to God for providing the necessities for those He has placed in our care.

Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

Again the language is clear--physical and spiritual needs. And the warning is clear--we are accountable to God. If the 90K job causes a father to neglect the spiritual needs of his family, it's time to consider alternatives.

Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities.

Can a father lead a family according to these principles if a job is "sucking the life and health out of him"? I think that requires a lot of prayer and soul-searching, as a couple. And I don't think that anyone can counsel or judge righteously on that issue except those who have the keys to do so--the Lord, the parents, and the Bishop if necessary.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

The situation in the OP is similar to the one our family went through, but with some key differences: In the area where I live, first-year teachers make about 40K, which is just below the national median salary and just above the median salary for our region. The cost of living, especially real estate, is lower than the national average. Although my salary dropped to about half when I left the military, I can provide well for our family of six on one income because we live in a place that is favorable for teachers. Those places are very rare.

A perspective on government assistance: During the first part of my career n the military, I was enlisted. I had the rank of Airman First Class (E-3) when our first child was born. My career and education advisor told me we qualified for food stamps. I was shocked, and told her no thank you. She explained it this way: I worked for the government, providing a valuable service, and the government didn’t provide a high enough salary for me to support my family. So, the government also offered an additional benefit—a way to provide food for my family and put about three hundred dollars back into our monthly budget. We had a choice—leave the military for a better paying job, struggle through the next several years, or use food stamps. We chose food stamps and used them for the next five years until I became an officer. I figure that over the rest of my career, we paid back several fold what we received in assistance.

This brings up another consideration: If someone has been a productive and contributing citizen for years, and will likely be for years to come, is it unrighteous to use government assistance for a while during a career transition?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Realistically, Food Stamps are a Farm Subsidy program which is why they are administered by the department of agriculture unlike wellfare. As a farmer, I encourage everyone eligible for food stamps to use them!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Roper: You raise many great questions. Honestly I don't know the answers (hence the original questions). I would like to know what others think. I've never thought less of a person who used food stamps. My grandpa worked a farm in Idaho until it was impossible to work it anymore, little by little he was forced to sell off all his land, dairy cows, and so forth... until he had nothing... he struggled through his late fifties and sixties in abject poverty. He tried to go back to school, but when you're sixty, that's crazy. The church was helpful to keep him going, but I admire him so much, because he worked so hard, and was a deeply spiritual person.

He ended up working in a public school in Arizona before he died... I just have a lot of questions about this sort of stuff... I wonder what is the moral obligation a man has in a country of freedoms to work in an area that he feels is uplifting and just--not just for the acquisition of profits.

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

This is just my opinion, and you know that they say about opinions; they're like rear ends, everyone has one and they're all smelly.
Anyway, if you aren't already, get out of debt before making such a life changing career move. The bretheren are constantly telling us to get out of debt. You significantly reduce your ability to do so when you reduce your income.
There is nothing wrong with not buying your family all sorts of cool things. As long as you're providing a roof and food.
Also, make sure that you have your year's supply in order.
Get a contract job if you don't feel honest about getting a full time job with intent to leave later. Contract jobs also frequently pay more, which would help you get out of debt more quickly.
Also, I would advise you to qualify as a substitute teacher and try teaching some days. You may discover that you would really love to teach. You may also discover that you'd rather grind your fingers off with a wet sponge than teach.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Great advice Arbi... I've been thinking there's a more moderate way to go than making exterme changes all at once.

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I second what Arbi said. When we made the decision to switch, it took us over two years to prepare. We paid off all debt except for our mortgage, and we built up six months of salary in savings just in case something really went awry. Because our transition required me going back to school, there were lots of other preparations as well.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

What would have happened if after you got into teaching, roper, if you found you didn't like it, or that you weren't any good at it? Did you still have other options available for a post military career?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

But this involves planning... which is a major weakness of mine... sigh... why must the answer always involve personal growth!?

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:

What would have happened if after you got into teaching, roper, if you found you didn't like it, or that you weren't any good at it? Did you still have other options available for a post military career?

I did exactly what Arbi recommended--I substitute taught for a semester. I found high school was okay depending on the subject--AP classes and debate were the best. I found I hated middle school and wouldn't teach that agegroup of kids even if I got paid six figures. I loved elementary. And I love my masters-level courses in education, especially the child development ones.

Everyone doesn't get a chance to test drive their dream career, unless you can get some kind of contract work to do it.

If it hadn't worked out, I likely could have used my intelligence background and security clearance for a job in homeland security or FBI.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

hey all... got my two weeks notice today... so I'm just gonna start the job hunt again...

Hey roper, what about middle school did you not like? So if I have a Master's degree in Electrical Engineering, how much education do I need to be certified to teach? Doesn't it vary from state to state?

Just curious... I intend to get a regular job for a while... but I'd like to move in that direction... :)

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Sorry to hear about the job. With that Masters degree at least when you start teaching you should make more money than the guy with the BS or heaven forbid that attrocity known as the BA!!!!! I know that schools here pay more for more units and more if you have an advanced degree. Plus with an engineering degree you could probably get a single subject credential and teach math which is a high demand field. Heck with the masters you can teach at a Junior College right away which even part time could help you earn money while working on a credential. Credential requirements do vary from state to state but there is some recognition of programs between states. Some states will grant an emergency credential that allow you to teach (and earn $$$) while working on a credential program. I do have an opening for a Janitor if nothing else pops up. Of course you would have to live in a farming ghetto in central California but I hear you can save big $$$$ on rent by sharing a 2 bedroom shanty with 8 other families.

Oh, I almost forget. Now that you know your job is kapoot, start stealing office supplies so you can supply your classroom needs! Just ship them out like Radar did with those jeep parts on Mash!

-- Edited by salesortonscom at 17:01, 2006-11-16

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

hey all... got my two weeks notice today... so I'm just gonna start the job hunt again...

Hey roper, what about middle school did you not like? So if I have a Master's degree in Electrical Engineering, how much education do I need to be certified to teach? Doesn't it vary from state to state?

Just curious... I intend to get a regular job for a while... but I'd like to move in that direction... :)

--Ray

Sorry that your job is going away. Hey, look at it this way, at least you're not Frank Bingham. You're just losing your job. He lost his family.

BTW, Ray, I had another thought. Does your dream require you to be a teacher? What if you were a mentor? There are businesses that do quite well helping kids do better at school. You would be helping young minds to learn, and maybe you could make a better salary than a teacher. Hire college students to help you mentor the kids in various subjects. It seems that in many ways it might fulfill your dream while allowing you to make more money. Of course, you could also fall flat on your face.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray, I'm sorry about your job. No matter what one's plans are, or how well prepared one is, there's always that initial panic that comes with the instability of unemployment.

Like Jason said, with a master's degree, you could probably teach as at least as adjunct faculty at a community college, especially in a high-demand field like engineering. And that would pay better than substitute teaching at a public school. And if your goal is to eventually teach at a university, that's a much better way to go.

As for teacher licensure for public schools, the details vary by state.

Here's what it is in Texas for individuals who already have degrees:

Elementary: 16 credit hours in child development, 16 credit hours in pedagogy, teaching residency, 2 state exams.

Middle School and High School: 16 hours in pedagogy, proof of content mastery in desired subject area (transcript showing at least 16 hours in that subject), teaching residency, 2 state exams.

Depending on the district, master's degrees pay $1000-$3000 higher than bachelor's.

Some teachers really like middle school. I just didn't have the patience for all the puberty-induced drama, probably because two of my own kids had just gone through that stage, and I had had quite enough, thank you very much.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Sorry to hear about the job, Ray. Michigan is not a place right now to be looking, unless you're extremely lucky, so don't bother looking back here.

Of course, things may be nice down south of the border in Ohio... ;)

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Darn, and i was hoping to move next door to you, Cat.

I guess I'll have to move to Fort Worth instead. :)

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Many new schools being built in the area, Ray, so demand for teachers is pretty high. Overall job market is very good as well. Low cost of living. Starting teacher salaries for next year will be around 44K in most of the districts around here.

I think you should really consider a "fact-finding mission" to Fort Worth. We could get BBQ at Railhead, knock back a few Dublin Dr. Peppers, and go see the big X in the middle of the street where JFK was shot!

eta: Or you could talk to Lockheed or one of the hundred sub-contract firms in the area about working on the JSF program. Our Stake President is the chief test pilot, so, you know, maybe he could hook you up.

-- Edited by Roper at 14:51, 2006-11-17

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

If I had no family obligations, I'd be there (especially to the big X). :)

So does Fort Worth have a temple?

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

It's in Dallas, about an hour's drive from Fort Worth.