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Post Info TOPIC: Fix our schools


Senior Bucketkeeper

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Fix our schools


What is the biggest problem in our public schools?


Why do you think that is?


How would you fix it?



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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck



Wise and Revered Master

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The biggest problem with the public schools is that teachers are now required to teach things other than the core subjects.  Teachers are expected to teach children how to behave, ethics, sex, and make the students feel good about themselves.  Things that parents used to do but who now either care less or don't have the time.  If little Billy misbehaves the parents see the teacher as being at fault and not little Billy.  Students who act up and create disturbances must be tollerated and there is no parental support to take care of the problem.  The majority of students do not have both of their original parents married or living under the same roof due to divource or single parents.  These children have siblings with different fathers and little or no male role models in their lives.  In my 4th graders class she is one of the only students with a traditional, married, parent situation.  Back to school night looks like a ghost town.  Most parents don't come, don't know the teacher, and don't care.  Only a few actually do their homework.  Parent teacher conferences that happen twice a year are poorly attended.  Most parents don't even show up.  It is nearly impossible to kick out a child that is out of control so bullies have free reign to terrorize their classmates.  Mom and dad won't punish them and if the school does anything they will get sued.


The breakdown of the family is the teacher's greatest challenge.  No amount of money pumped into the system can take the place of the education that used to take place at home.  The teacher not only must be an expert in the subject material but act as a sarrogate parent, psychiatrist, and also must make Billy have good self esteem.  If Billy disturbs the class then the teacher must deal with them even though it means taking away valuable learning time from the rest of the class.


Other countries spend less per pupil than we do yet our students are falling behind.  It isn't a question of money, it's a question of asking more from the educational system than it was ever intended to do.



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Jason



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Roper wrote:



What is the biggest problem in our public schools?


Why do you think that is?


How would you fix it?




There are too many, so I'll pick a random one.


1- The entitlement attitude among the teaching methods and curriculum.


2- It encourages dependance, apathy, idleness, greed, irresponsibility, and bureaucracy.


3- Teach children accountability by instilling a punishment / reward system beyond academics.



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"The day has come when we can combine sensory deprivation with drug hypnosis and astute manipulation of reward and punishment to gain almost absolute control over an individual's behavior." - James V. McConnell


Head Chef

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I think one of the largest problems with public schools is that they are largely state and federal funded, so they are controlled at that level. If a parent sees a problem in the school, they can't change it at the local level. They have to get it changed at the state or federal level, which is many orders of magnitude harder. Schools can't respond to local situations without state level guidance.
A principle of a high school in a ward I lived in told me that the situation is out of control. They get many often conflicting directives from state and federal governments, and they have to choose which they'll comply with, because it's impossible in many cases to follow both directives.
There are many more issues, so I'll just get to the most controversial opinion I have on public schools. I don't think that attendance should be mandatory, at all, for any age group. The schools would then, out of necessity, find the best way possible to be interesting to students. Students who are forced there and are uninterested aren't getting anything out of schooling anyway. This would also incline parents to be more interested in their childrens' education. Yes, there would be students who just wouldn't go to school and would get no education at all. But it is my opinion that there is a far greater number of students who are going to school and getting no education at all. If attendance were not mandatory, schools would need to compete, and a greater number of students would benefit.

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The biggest problem in our public schools, is our parents.

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Homestar Runner wrote:





The biggest problem in our public schools, is our parents.




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Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land. - D&C 38:29


Hot Air Balloon

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No one makes mistakes in school anymore... and everyone's a winner, but there's never enough time to really focus on individuals, so rather you're not a winner, you're a blob of winners... as a conglomerate.


I don't think that schools should go out of their way to point out failure, but true excellence needs to be acknowledged and celebrated, rather than the constant praise for really bad work.


I guess if the world never made people feel bad, I wouldn't have a problem with that approach, but that'd be more of a Terrestial world experience. :)


--Ray


 



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The problem with the public schools is that the system is outdated.  It is an outgrowth of the Industrial Revolution.  It is an assembly line process, where we assemble workers and artisans for society.  Moral education is irrelevant since it has little to do with sustaining the national economy.  With the Information Revolution, new modes  are being tried.  I believe the natural tenedency is to make education as "easy" as possible and make the process even more impersonal. Gone are the days of mentoring and tutoring as the backbone of a personal education.  We're just too busy to educate the rising generation, so let the government build some factories and "educate" our kids. We have to ask ourselves : how did they do it in the past and create the great minds that we read about in history?

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If we use Bronfenbrenner's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urie_Bronfenbrenner Ecological Systems Theory of child development to examine the relationships between family and school, we see what many of the replies on this thread have indicated: Values traditionally taught in the family (ethical behavior and many others that you have pointed out) are no longer taught in the family--the responsibility for teaching those things has migrated to our public schools.  However, teachers are forbidden to teach them from any kind of perspective that could be interpreted as "religion."  How does one teach moral values from an amoral perspective?  We have set up our public schools and our teachers for failure in expecting them to teach moral values.  My own solution is to model morality and hope that the kids get it by example. 


I also agree with Fregramis's criticism of our public schools in what Paulo Freire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire called the banking method of education in "Pedagogy of the Oppressed."  Too often, public education treats students as little banks where we deposit information in order to withdraw it at a later time.  Education should help students develop habits of inquiry--to be competent beyond the levels of just knowledge and comprehension--to be competent in application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation.


When I passionately express ideas like these, veteran teachers give me that "we were once like you, but you too will be assimilated" smile. NEVER! I will fight the system in my own quiet way



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Roper wrote:



1-What is the biggest problem in our public schools?


2-Why do you think that is?


3-How would you fix it?





1- Bad parents who don't make their kids study.


2- Because even in mediocre and bad schools, the students that study are successful and make a difference.  They have the drive.  All teachers really do is impart knowledge, it is the parents that impart the wisdom and the drive to succeed.  Much more so than teachers can.


3-Make parents more responsible (though this runs into legal liability issues).



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Jeff said


All teachers really do is impart knowledge,


I disagree.  Good teachers help students develop a love of learning and a lifelong commitment to learning.  Good teachers help students develop higher-order thinking skills beyond just knowledge and comprehension.


it is the parents that impart the wisdom and the drive to succeed.  Much more so than teachers can.


Bullseye! Unfortunately, our society has devalued the role of parent and removed social support for parenting to the point that the majority of kids will never get that from parents (or "primary caregivers" in the absence of parents.)  Jeff, that's the way it should be, but in most cases, that's the way it's not.  We can't legislate many aspects of parental responsibility, but we can legislate public school responsibility.  Again, I see the reponsibility of teaching values to children shifting from the family to the school.  That's one of the factors in my decision to become an educator--the opportunity to teach children the values they will never get at home.  I kinda like the idea of being a good dad, so to speak, to 20 second-graders.



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Hot Air Balloon

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The world of news teaches us that men (and many women, now) enter the teaching profession to molest children.  Clearly only robots that observe Aasimov's three laws can be trusted to teach our children in modern society.


--Ray


 



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Senior Member

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Roper wrote:



Jeff said


All teachers really do is impart knowledge,


I disagree.  Good teachers help students develop a love of learning and a lifelong commitment to learning.  Good teachers help students develop higher-order thinking skills beyond just knowledge and comprehension.


it is the parents that impart the wisdom and the drive to succeed.  Much more so than teachers can.


Bullseye! Unfortunately, our society has devalued the role of parent and removed social support for parenting to the point that the majority of kids will never get that from parents (or "primary caregivers" in the absence of parents.)  Jeff, that's the way it should be, but in most cases, that's the way it's not.  We can't legislate many aspects of parental responsibility, but we can legislate public school responsibility.  Again, I see the reponsibility of teaching values to children shifting from the family to the school.  That's one of the factors in my decision to become an educator--the opportunity to teach children the values they will never get at home.  I kinda like the idea of being a good dad, so to speak, to 20 second-graders.





 


A love or learning comes more from parents than it does teachers.  It is an exception to the rule.  Consider that the parent spends (or should spend) more time with the student.  The parent, in theory, cares more about the student than the teacher, the parent, again in theory, is wise enough to know what is important.


The stories of teachers inspiring their students are the one or two exceptions out of hundreds of students, and while they make the teacher feel good, they do not impart the reality of the situation.


I tell the parents, with 40+ kids in class, that comes out to an average of 1.3 minutes of quality time per student.  Is that inspiring?  No.  Is lecturing inspiring?  I suppose it could be.  But at best, teachers hope to touch upon one or two students in the course of the year in which they do indeed inspire.  Again, a reality issue versus perception.


Parents hold the bulk of the potential in their hand, in fact, I would say they hold almost all the cards.  While that doesn't relieve teachers of their responsibility to do the best, it is stark a stark contrast when you consider parental influence versus a teacher that has you for 55 minutes in a day and shares you with 40+ other people.


I agree that values teachng has been transferred to schools with their moral relativism.  And it has hurt the students tremendously.  But in the end, the family still carries most of the cards.



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Understander of unimportant things

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A love of learning actually is inherent in each person born, I believe.  Aspects of keeping that desire and hunger to learn (particularly in a academic setting) comes from both parents as well as an inspiritional teacher / role model / mentor.


I believe that a teacher who is more interested in seeing those "aha!" moments in students eyes than in simply teaching is their job finds ways to inspire and reach more than just the 1 or 2 students a year.  Otherwise, how do you explain popular high school teachers and college professors?  Of course, there are teachers who are there just because it is the job they could get, others who are so full of themselves that all the students really get is a new way to learn how to brown nose, others who were idealists but have since gotten burned out, and others because they want to be the "coach of the star on the team" (what Jeff is referring to) and that is how they act as well.  I've had all five kinds in my various educational experiences (junior high, high school, college, grad school).


The importance parents place in education and learning is the predominant factor in what level of importance children place in it, no doubt.  Just as in the teaching of and adherence to morals and values.



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 Otherwise, how do you explain popular high school teachers and college professors? 


 


Easy tests?  Entertaining teachers?  There are multiferious reasons for such popularity and some of them are good.  But popular does not mean inspirational.  "Scrubs" is popular, "Two Men and a Half" are popular, but hardly inspirational.


 


I maintain the family, beyond any other thing a teacher does, has by far the greatest influence.  On a macro basis, why is it that Asians, with non English speaking parents are able to enter universities at a higher percentage than caucasions?  Or hispanics?  Generally because their parents instill that desire through expectations. 


 


An interesting powerpoint I put together


 




-- Edited by Jeffery_LQ1W at 14:25, 2006-10-09


I just realized the quotes I used were mixed up.  I had a Gordon B Hinkley quote mixed in with a Bill Gates quote (I use them interchangeably when depending on the audience) so please forgive the error.



-- Edited by Jeffery_LQ1W at 14:26, 2006-10-09

-- Edited by Jeffery_LQ1W at 14:27, 2006-10-09

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Wise and Revered Master

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I have had three high school teachers and two college instructors who I would say actually made a difference with me.  I disagree with the idea that teachers can somehow develope in their students a love for learning.  None of mine did.  I figured that one out on my own and not really until I was an adult.  The teachers I felt left an impression on me all required me to work hard, had extremely high expectations for performance, and only rewarded excellence.  Those that tried to be substitute parents, that put up with trying to develope self esteem, and basically gave into pop psych ideas of education failed miserably and I have forgotten most of their names.


I completely agree with the statement: "The stories of teachers inspiring their students are the one or two exceptions out of hundreds of students, and while they make the teacher feel good, they do not impart the reality of the situation."


I don't want my kid's teacher trying to be their friend or mentor.  I want them to teach the materials and require excellence from themselves and my children.  Anything else is just a complete waste of time.



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Hot Air Balloon

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Teachers can make a huge difference in a child's life. So can a coach, a scout leader, a home teacher, a neighborhood friend, and of course a parent. But they cannot do so for every person. I am feeling this pressure in my ward. If I could, I'd be a best friend with all the people in my town... but I find myself completely tapped out.


--Ray


 



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Wise and Revered Master

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rayb wrote:



Teachers can make a huge difference in a child's life. So can a coach, a scout leader, a home teacher, a neighborhood friend, and of course a parent. But they cannot do so for every person. I am feeling this pressure in my ward. If I could, I'd be a best friend with all the people in my town... but I find myself completely tapped out.


--Ray


 






I hate getting tapped out.  I prefer to be knocked out because at least you can claim compensation for a head injury.  Tapping out just means you said uncle!



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Hot Air Balloon

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Did I say tapped? I meant "tapdanced"... I'm completely tapdanced out...



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Understander of unimportant things

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salesortonscom wrote:



rayb wrote:



Teachers can make a huge difference in a child's life. So can a coach, a scout leader, a home teacher, a neighborhood friend, and of course a parent. But they cannot do so for every person. I am feeling this pressure in my ward. If I could, I'd be a best friend with all the people in my town... but I find myself completely tapped out.


--Ray


 







I hate getting tapped out.  I prefer to be knocked out because at least you can claim compensation for a head injury.  Tapping out just means you said uncle!




I thought it meant something like kids running up your front, tap dancing on your head for an hour, and then running down your back... I've heard the experience is actually one that will land you in the hospital next to the kid who forgot he was behind Fat Albert as he rounded the flight of stairs to the third floor... 

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Hot Air Balloon

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Heh. Cat... I beat ya to the punchline... :P


--Ray


 



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Wise and Revered Master

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Cat Herder wrote:



salesortonscom wrote:



rayb wrote:



Teachers can make a huge difference in a child's life. So can a coach, a scout leader, a home teacher, a neighborhood friend, and of course a parent. But they cannot do so for every person. I am feeling this pressure in my ward. If I could, I'd be a best friend with all the people in my town... but I find myself completely tapped out.


--Ray


 







I hate getting tapped out.  I prefer to be knocked out because at least you can claim compensation for a head injury.  Tapping out just means you said uncle!





I thought it meant something like kids running up your front, tap dancing on your head for an hour, and then running down your back... I've heard the experience is actually one that will land you in the hospital next to the kid who forgot he was behind Fat Albert as he rounded the flight of stairs to the third floor... 




Oh Fat Albert...That Brings Back Memories.  Remind me to tell you the story of the time my brother and I went to an Alcohol Treatment support meeting and watched a Fat Albert Cartoon about alcoholism.   Errr maybe not.



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In the inner-city classrooms where I've taught, one or maybe two students come from traditional two-parent families.  More than half of the students are usually being raised by a single adult who is not their parent--a grandmother or aunt, perhaps, who is usually working two jobs to provide for those in her care.  Most of the children in my classes go to child care before and after school.


Jeff and Jason, I fully agree with your perspectives in that it should be the way you describe.  The reality is that as an elementary teacher, I am the adult with whom the children in my classes have the most interaction on a daily basis.  For many of my kids, I may be the only healthy role model they have in their formative years, and I take that responsibility very seriously.  We can argue all day that it shouldn't be that way, and maybe in your own experience it never was and never will be for your children.  The reality of my experience is 180 degrees out.



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It is that way, because we as teachers and society, have made it that way.  I hold the parents feet to the fire, and it almost always ends up with the students performing on a higher level.  I think it is dangerous to assume that you have influence which you really don't have.  Yes, you are an adult in a classroom.  But compared to their lives outside of class and especially that of their parents, your influence is very small.  That is how it really is.


The biggest problem is the abrogation of society regarding the responsibility of parenting from families to bureaucracies.





-- Edited by Jeffery_LQ1W at 07:40, 2006-10-11

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Wise and Revered Master

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I agree.  I don't think the teacher has enough time with any student to become an effective role model or substitute parent.  Too many kids, not enough time.  If you had them after school and in the evenings then perhaps you might have a chance.  So basically just leave the kids in your care 24 hours 7 days a week.  Roper, it's great that you think you can really reach these troubled kids.  Back in the 80's when only a couple kids in the class had the family situation you described I might agree.  But today's kids in school with problems are not one or two in each class.  My 10 year old only has a small group (5 or 6) kids in her class with both original parents married still.  One teacher cannot do it effectly for all are even some of those kids.


The one institution that was designed to do it was the family and without that, nearly all those kids are destined to become part of a generational cycle of drug addicts, teen parents, and prision residents.  The school cannot fix this problem no matter how much money we throw at it.  It's not popular among the teaching segments but it is a fact.  My mom is a teacher and she knows it.  My sister is a student teacher working on her masters while teaching and she knows it.  Her profs and fellow Masters candidates believe that if this political party were in power or that tax was passed to help schools then all of these problems would go away.


You can't teach discipline and a work ethic to kids who are not shown the value of it at home.  You can't teach kids to love math, reading, or science, when they can make $$$ and look like a thug in a gang and get all the things they see their rapper role models getting. 


 



-- Edited by salesortonscom at 10:29, 2006-10-11

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Understander of unimportant things

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I can see both sides of the conversation here, and both have great merits and points.


My question, though Jeff and Jason, if we as MP holders do not step up and let our lights so shine in whatever sphere of influence we have, will we be held blameless for not doing what we could have simply because the ideal does not exist?  If good men like Roper (and for that matter good women too) whether LDS or not who are in teacher / administrator roles in schools do not work to exert some positive influence, can we be assured that those who do not share the traditional good values of our society will not work to exert their influence?  I think you both know the answer.


Sure, a teacher is never going to replace the lack of good parenting, and it rightly shouldn't, but you don't throw the whole thing to the dogs simply because a larger percentage of kids come from broken or dysfunctional homes.  Is not our own teaching as missionaries there to help stop the cycle of breaking of homes through the sharing of values based on sound gospel doctrine and principles?  Teachers with good values can still work subtely to influence for good in the public schools.  We shouldn't discount that.


A teacher is never going to reach every single student, for that matter may never reach or positively influence a single student unless a student is open to being taught.  Just like a Scoutmaster is never going to reach every boy in his troop or a Quorum advisor is never going to reach every young man in the quorum or even the Savior never being able to reach every individual born into mortality unless the individual is open to being reached.


But, that doesn't mean you just say 'Heck with it' and not do anything at all because the ideal situation is broken or isn't in place.  And I think that is what Roper is getting at.  A good teacher is one who doesn't give up at trying to open their pupils understanding and to see how things fit together and why it is important.  That is values at the very core, and no amount of legislation can negate that fact without destroying the whole institution of education.


And as Roper said, regardless of whether we like it or not, an elementary school teacher really does have a great deal of influence in contributing to the development of a child and their personality.  They do have upwards of 6 to 7 hours a day, 5 days a week with the child under their supervision... Shoot, I remember back to when I was in 3rd grade and made the innocent mistake of calling my teacher "Mommy" one time when I went up to ask for a bathroom break (she and I both blushed and giggled -- luckily none of my classmates heard it ).  And I certainly did not come from a dysfunctional or broken home.  My dad was Bishop, and I interacted daily with both my Mom and Dad in positive ways at home.  I think it was more the natural reaction to use the term with an adult who was a familiar and positive role model.   Hmmm... wonder if that "mommy", er teacher ( oops I did it again! he he), is still alive.  She would have to be at least in her 80's by now...



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You assume that because the influence is limited, that our efforts should likewise be limited.  That is not the case.  However we should not delude ourselves into thinking that it is "us" or that our influence is the thing that changes most or even many of these kids around.  It is that kind of thinking that convinced the bureaucracy to separate kids from parental responsibility in the first place.


We should do our best and we should also be quick to let the parents know that theirs is the best that is expected.  Society has a great deal of effect on parental responsibility and their interaction with children.


And I still disagree that elementary school children have a great deal of impact.  In fact, relative to all the other influences in an elementary childs life, the impact is pretty small.  Especially when you look to parents, siblings and friends.  My butler had more influence in my life than my elementary teacher did.  We all think back to a teacher we liked, and remember fondly, and I think that magnifies "our perception" of the influence "we think" they really had.  You have to ask yourself, how would you be different if you never met that person?  Especially when compared to your parental and sibling impact.



-- Edited by Jeffery_LQ1W at 12:14, 2006-10-11

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Understander of unimportant things

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Well clearly you don't understand us po' folk, if you had a butler growing up... he he he...  those of us who didn't have butlers, maids, pool boys, housekeepers, nannies, etc. had to transfer that ability to be influenced by someone other than parents somewhere , thus our public school teachers get to fill that bill. 


No, seriously, I see your point.  I think the two sides are talking past each other.  You and Jason are talking in macro instances and in the case of bureaucratic mandate, and I agree with you.  I think Roper is talking about the micro instance of at the actual teacher level and filling the role any good teacher (be it public schools or higher education or religious instruction) does... that of being a positive role model and influence in helping to instill appropriate morals and values in their students while passing on knowledge.  And, I agree with him. 


I don't think we should discredit the impact a good teacher really can have on an individual, regardless of the background the individual comes from.


For example, I'm thinking back to some of the things we learned at our Little Philmont training session in our Stake last month.  In Scouting in the Church, our goal is not to turn out a bunch of Eagle Scouts.  That should be more a side effect of the boy's involvement.  Our goal as adult leaders is to provide the environment and opportunity for the boys to learn, as boys, so that they can have those fleeting moments where they commit themselves to the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout Law, so that they will want to, of themselves, be better individuals, to make those commitments to themself to honoring the Priesthood, to living the standards, to respect young women, to serving a mission, to marrying in the temple, and to doing their duty.  Mom and Dad can only accomplish this to a certain level in their boys without it becoming I have to do it because they tell me to.  But, other trusted adults who are in a mentor role can.  Anyway, as I heard this from several LDS men who were high up in the Scout organization and in church involvement, it made sense as I thought back in my own life, and I remembered the advisors and Scout leaders (and for that matter a teacher or coach or two at school to some extent) who had provided the proper atmosphere for me to make and desire to make the commitments to live a certain way in accordance with the Gospel.


It is not looking back with mere fondness, but a realization that they did have a profound impact on me.  Perhaps not as great as my parents, but nevertheless as equally vital.  Yes and with gratitude, had those individuals not been there when they were, I would not be the man I am today.



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Religion imbrues a person with a certain ethical stance that is repeated to them on a daily basis.  In general education does not.


I do not discredit the impact of a good teacher.  But I do believe that the impact of a good teacher is severely limited to one or two people (out of hundreds in a given year) and those one or two people while they may "connect" prove the point by the exception they represent, which is that by far the vast vast majority of students have many other stronger outside influences.


When you state you remember a specific teacher, it also goes to proving my point.  I bet you had several very good and even outstanding teachers, but you only remember the one or two that you specifically point to.  It is because there are so many other towering influences in your life such as parents, siblings, friends and even church (which is almost a societal shield).


Again, I don't state this as an advocacy to do less, in fact I believe it shows we have to work harder because our influence is so limited.  I merely point out a somewhat harsh reality that teachers sometimes overlook to the point of students being hurt by the bureaucracy.  Mainly that teachers and the bureaucracy that encompasses their profession, has for decades lessened the role of parental responsiblity in the education process and have all too often used the exception (in which a students life is changed by such influence) to create a very bad rule of thought, that all children will be substantially changed by teacher influence.  This signifies and justifies the abrogation of parental responsibility through education bureaucracy.


I have wonderful memories of some teachers and their influence.  But relative to other influences they are limited.  Our memory magnifies small things and makes them larger, much like a lens.


You do open an interesting train of thought though, as to how small influences can combine when reinforced to become larger influences, this is how the church works withing our families.  But education is nowhere near that consistent.



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Hot Air Balloon

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I still remember more or less ALL of my teachers, from Kindergarten up through College. I can count on one had how many I NOW see were really really bad, though at the time I had NO CLUE.


One such was a computer science teacher, who had NO CLUE what he was talking about. I remember once he tried to teach us recursion... and only managed to completely confuse EVERYONE, because HE didn't understand it himself.


I also remember the class in college in which the basic concept of a program stack was discussed and how the concept of recursion was almost TRIVIAL from that perspective to understand.


My old highschool failed Bush's NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND national testing stuff... They had maybe two decent math teachers and the rest spent more time interested in coaching football.


--Ray



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Wise and Revered Master

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Jeffery_LQ1W wrote:



  My butler had more influence in my life than my elementary teacher did. 

-- Edited by Jeffery_LQ1W at 12:14, 2006-10-11





You had a butler?  Are you English Bro?


Seriously though.  I think Cat got where I was coming from.  Obviously I'm not advocating not trying to be a good role model or teacher for students but I do think that no prospective teacher should fool themselves into thinking that they are going to be able to save these kids.  It's not going to happen.  And trying so hard to save them robs the others of the education they need.  You can't fix the self esteem for 10 kids and hope the other 20 get by while you take the time to try.  Can you make a difference in a kids life?  I suppose you can but not on the level that some of the teacher recruiting posters make it out to be.  If you want to save kids,  become a doctor.  Too many teachers quit because they become fustrated dealing with the problems in the students.  They come in thinking they are going to have these moments where they can see these problem kids have little light bulbs come on.  When it doesn't happen year after year even with their best efforts, they get fustrated and go do something else.



-- Edited by salesortonscom at 15:37, 2006-10-11

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My perspective on the education of children is this:  Our public schools try to teach values (and this is problematic for a number of reasons discussed here), beyond the traditional academic subjects, because it appears that for a number of reasons, parents don't teach those values.


Another perspective, primarily articulated by Jason and Jeff is this: It's not the responsibility of public schools to teach values (they can't do a decent job of it anyway), and in taking that responsbility, schools in effect lessen parents' responsibility to teach values and give parents an "out" so to speak.


This relationship appears similar to cycles of addiction:  It's easy for the addict to keep using because the significant other enables it.


So the issue becomes "Where does intervention need to happen?"


When I look at it that way, Elder Oaks conference address comes to mind:  The best and ultimately the only lasting and complete intervention is the gospel of Jesus Christ, which will heal or give strength to endure. 



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Wise and Revered Master

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I just wanted to add something that is going on in my family.  My neice's parents divourced when she was young.  Because her father worked for the government and was gone all the time due to contract the wife was given custody.  The wife decided not to be a mom and let the kids pretty much raise themselves.  The neice began failing school and has currently been held back two grades.  Her dad has remarried.  The mom finally had it with the daughter and shipped her off to live with dad.  She is getting strait Fs in school.  The teacher called the dad and asked him if he knew the parents of the girl she was hanging out with after school.  He had met them and they seemed like nice people.  The teacher warned him that my neice was using drugs at this girls house and the parents were aware.  When confronted she admitted using Meth and Marijuanna.  So sad for a girl that is still in Junior high.  I believe the teacher did all she could in this situation.  She is not going to be able to fix my Neice.  If my neice continues to get strait Fs she will be held back another year and then will be in the same grade as her younger brother.  I will be surprised if she graduates from high school or makes it out of her teen years without a pregnancy.  I wish someone would tell me where we could put her into school where some teacher would magically be able to fix the problem and make up for years and years of poor parenting.


My brother in law on the other side of the family is having similar problems with his younger siblings after a divource in their family.  Both parents basically gave up on parenting and now the younger kids will be lucky to have any chance in life.  Where are the teachers to fix that problem?  Reallistically they cannot fix the problems with these kids with their parents having such issues.


I'm not saying teachers should give up and not be good examples but I am saying that a teacher cannot fix screwed up kids like this when the parents have given up their responsibility.


 



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So as a teacher, when I encounter so called "screwed up" kids in my class, knowing that their chances of learning values at home are zero, I ask myself a question that has been a guide for most of my adult life:  If not me then who?


With older kids in middle and high school, teachers probably have pretty limited influence on the values kids have internalized.


However, research on moral development in young children shows that until children internalize moral values usually during or right before adolescence, teachers can significantly impact children's moral devlopment by teaching values. (This same research, btw, is used by the ACLU to support their position against teaching religious values in school.)



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Wise and Revered Master

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So are you saying that my neice and brother in law's siblings are SOL as we say on the farm?


Seriously though Roper, I sincerely hope that you are able to help some of these kids.  Don't let the system beat that positive attitude of yours down.  I almost went into teaching myself, it being so much in the family.  I was one of those weird guys that enjoyed teaching 15-18 year old Sunday School.  What did it for me though was looking at the problems in the classroom I would have to deal with and the lack of parental support.  So now I run and adult day care center instead!



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Thank you for the encouragement, Jason.  FWIW, I didn't go into the profession uninformed.  After a career in the military, I spent several months substitute teaching and doing research about the career field before I enrolled in the certification program.  I had a pretty good idea what I'm in for.


In addition to dealing with parents who have completely disengaged from their children's education, I also have the challenge of dealing with parents (usually educated professionals) who are unfailingly critical of the teacher, the administration, the school, the district, and the public education system as a whole.  They have no problem making time to draft frequent emails expressing their displeasure, but apparantly they are too busy to attend a parent-teacher conference, visit the school to have lunch with their child, or help out in the classroom or on field trips. 


But then a single father who is working two jobs to support his kids offers to have a conference with me early before school, because he doesn't want to take time away from my family in the evening.  That kind of consideration can sustain me for weeks!



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Roper wrote:







So as a teacher, when I encounter so called "screwed up" kids in my class, knowing that their chances of learning values at home are zero, I ask myself a question that has been a guide for most of my adult life:  If not me then who?


With older kids in middle and high school, teachers probably have pretty limited influence on the values kids have internalized.


However, research on moral development in young children shows that until children internalize moral values usually during or right before adolescence, teachers can significantly impact children's moral devlopment by teaching values. (This same research, btw, is used by the ACLU to support their position against teaching religious values in school.)






It seems you are making an erroneous assumption.


You assume that because the work is daunting and even impossible that it means you should not put forth your best effort.  That is not what I have stated.


You assume that your influence is greater than the many other influences out there.  It is not.


When you state "if not me who" you in effect imply that you can overcome the many many other influences in the life of that student within the short time you have these children.  I think lottery tickets have odds like that.  It is not "you", it is them and the environment outside of "you".  You are expected and probably do, carry out as best you can, it is part of the ethics in being a teacher, at least for most teachers.  However that does not translate to results.


Research and moral development among children is at best controversial since children of small or elementary school age often have changing life experiences, especially at puberty, and that most of the "moral" development is reinforced over the childhood of the individual and not simply reduced or lessened as they grow into young 12 year olds. 


It is one reason the church is so successful.  There is a true rule in the trite statement


"One day of church, six days of fun


Chances of heaven, seven to one"


The church reinforces the lessons of Sunday school throughout the week, with an almost separate culture within the culture of the country they are in.  Mormons are indeed peculiar that way, activieties ensure that most of the activities themselves remain within the realm of church activities rather than a more secular mode.  The church also "teaches" parents how to raise their children and proscribes several things that must or should be done (family prayer, family home evening, family ppi, blessings, partriarchial order in things, coupled with the myriad of youth programs ....) these reinforcements, capped with two years of intense religious training and proselyting ensure long term viability within the group for members (by the way, knowing the church is true helps also ).


Very different from what goes on in school.



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From Jeff:


You assume that your influence is greater than the many other influences out there.  It is not.


it's not an assumption.  It's a conclusion based on fifty years of scholarly research done on young children's moral development and the influence of teachers on that development.


If you're willing to look at perspectives that challenge your own, google teacher influnce children moral development and read the research published in peer-reviewed journals.



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I think you are mistaken.  50 years of scholarly research has NOT shown that a teachers influence is greater than many influences out of the classroom.


If you would like to provide the citations I would be interested in seeing them.


The ACLU et al, are against "any" influences" they see as religious and in fact to do even need to show "greater" or "lesser" influence, simply influence.  I think you are mistaken in your assumption and thus have directed yourself to an erroneous conclusion.


 


If you're willing to look at perspectives that challenge your own, google teacher influnce children moral development and read the research published in peer-reviewed journals.


 


I have long since read and known most of the reports that apply.  And with a degree in education I can assure you I have read the peer reviewed journals ad nauseum and generally speaking they tend to to be narrow in their focus, thus ensuring that they do not take into account the many influences in a childs life outside the classroom.  You may want to more critically peruse some of those studies.  Though I will add that any specific citations that meet your criteria will be welcomed.



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Wise and Revered Master

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Alright, now we got the teachers fighting!  Woohoo!  I'm headed back to the TGIF topic for some more Gilligan's Island fantasies with the Great Space Coaster.


 



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No fight here, simply questions and assumptions.

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Wise and Revered Master

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Jeffery_LQ1W wrote:



No fight here, simply questions and assumptions.



I was being facetious.  I find all the bloviating most waggish.  No need to get truculent.



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Speaking of truculence, the surest sign is calling someone else truculent.

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Wise and Revered Master

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Jeffery_LQ1W wrote:



Speaking of truculence, the surest sign is calling someone else truculent.



Whoa, aren't we a bit splenetic today!



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It beats being sudorific.  Though I can tell you that I have a tendency to be sudorific in that others are affected by it.

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Understander of unimportant things

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Oh my virgin ears!  I can't handle all the big words...  The only thing missing is for people to start talking in mathmatetical terms and I can return to the padded cell to flubber my lips in peace. 


I've heard that truculence are a very expensive fungi that are considered a delicacy in fine dining...  Is someone having spleen problems too?  I guess that if one drinks to much sudo, they'll be feeling kind of sudorific. 



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truculence, what pigs dig up but won't eat?


Such a trifle, or is it truffle?



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Hey Roper,


 


For the record, I applaud you for your desire to make the world better by being a teacher. I've had many personal debates with myself as to whether to continue to support my five children on a rather substantial salary of an Electrical Engineer, or sink into the lower income bracket to the poverty level and become a public school teacher, and do something, that imo, is a lot more worthwhile from a moral perspective...


I haven't been able to give up the golden handcuffs, yet... :( But I like to think that it isn't the right time yet. I still dream about the possibility. You're my hero for doing it. Keep up the great work, and don't let these wannabe know-it-alls get you down.


--Ray



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Hey Ray, once you strike it rich in your publishing business, you could even go to work as a school janitor if you wanted!
Speaking of which, I have a plan on finishing my short story. I'm going to put the remainder off until the very last minute, then either finish it and turn it in at the last moment, or get it in a little late and beg forgiveness.

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Ray, as with real estate, location is everything.  If you ever do make the switch, look for places with decent teacher salaries and low cost of living.  Fort Worth is one--beginning teacher salaries are around 40K and cost of living is among the lowest in the nation for cities this size.  We were able to simplify and get debt-free (except for mortgage) before the transition.  Our family of six is doing just fine on that one income. 


Wyoming is another good place right now (not Jackson Hole, of course.) A state budget surplus from gas and oil prompted WY to raise teacher salaries by more than 6K across the board last year.  Starting salary is around 40K in most WY districts that also have a decent cost of living--no state income tax, no retirement tax, low energy costs, etc.  We're thinking of moving there in a few years.


You'll never be able to survive in Utah on one salary though.  For all those good Mormons in office who claim "educating our children" is a moral imperative, they sure pay their teachers crap.



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