Okay, I know that there are some homeschoolers on this board, and I am not posting this to automatically offend you. Please take a moment to put on your thickest skin.
I find myself annoyed by a certain homeschooling family I know. In conversations with them, the topic of education nearly always comes up. They LOVE to harp on how bad the local schools/teachers are, and how superior of an education their children are getting.
The thing is, the only thing they know about the schools is whatever the husband saw when he was doing occasional substituting while unemployed last year. I don't understand how he thinks that sitting in for a day here and there makes him an expert on the schools.
I think he's indoctrinated himself with the "All Public Schools Are Evil" mentality, and can't see past that to fairly judge the local schools, which IMO are perhaps not perfect, but neither are they evil.
The other thing that I don't understand about this family, is that they don't even start teaching their kids to read until they are seven or eight. The kids told me that when their family reads scriptures, they sit on the floor and draw or color. What's up with that? Perhaps they struggle with it, I don't know. But it is kinda weird, when they come over to play with my almost 6-year old (who incidentally has been homeschooled by me until she started kindergarten a week ago), that my daughter can read better than the 8 1/2 year old and 7-year old. Those kids feel bad, I can see it in their eyes.
I guess the bottom line is that I feel somehow judged and found wanting by these people, because I choose to send my kids to public school. They've never come out and said, "You're a bad parent," but they've spent a lot of breath trying to convince me that the schools are going to ruin my kids. It makes me want to avoid being around them, and ruins (for me) what could be an otherwise decent friendship.
I think, Bok, your problem is the people themselves, not the fact that they are homeschooling. I feel the same way about militant vegetarian LDS who act as if I'm egregiously breaking the WoW by ever eating any meat. In other words, I think that it's the personality more than the subject. When people ask why we homeschool, we always say it's because the public schools badly served our son. We don't harp about how the public schools are evil (although I think there is an argument to be made there). We say that they weren't giving our son what he needed. We're friends with a family where the mother is a substitute teacher. I'm befriending another person who recently moved in to the ward and is a Spanish teacher at the local high school. In a previous ward we were friends with a high school principal. He was especially interesting, since he had a high school for "at risk" students that had been expelled from other high schools. He always talked about how much he loved his students. In other words, I think you just happened upon a family that loves to have something to brag about and make them think that they're better than others. If it wasn't homeschooling, then it would have been something else. BTW, there is an educational theory that kids shouldn't be taught how to read until as late as 9 or 10. In fact, I think there's a chain of private schools (Waldorf, I think) that subscribes to that educational philosophy. I don't agree with it, and I taught our son to read as soon as we could. But it is not unique to the family you speak of or even homeschoolers.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
ANd now it's time for Offensive Generalization Theatre with your host, RayB.
There are two types of homeschoolers...
1. The Smarmy Ones.
2. The Apologetic Ones.
Bok's beef is with camp #1. Personally I've run into more in camp #1 than camp #2. Those in Camp #2 impresse me, those in camp #1 don't. Often those in Camp #2 do so only after having tried working within the public system, while camp #1 have built up all sorts of justifications for their choice, and have no problem condemning you for not seeing things your way--though most often their reasons tend to circle around the need to control and the inability to trust their children to do the right thing.
One of the problems I have with homeschoolers in my area is that they simply aren't willing to give to the educational community as a whole. It is a loss for all children in the community, and smacks of selfishness. Then again, we have some rather decent schools here. Already the majority of volunteers in the PTSA are LDS. (I know my wife was drafted by certain sisters who shall forever remain on our hatemail list... grrrr....) Further usually their objection to the school revolves around one issue.
In a way, it's like a family deciding to hold their own church services because they didn't like the way the nusery was run.
--Ray
-- Edited by rayb at 12:17, 2006-09-06
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
BTW, church members are frequently viewed as holier than thou because we believe that only worthy, baptized members of the church will be saved.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
Well, and that's just the thing. My children are intellectual sponges. Their learning styles mesh with the typical teaching methods at school. School is easy for them. So, from a learning standpoint, my kids are doing fabulously well where they are. And we supplement at home what they learn at school. Because if anything, the schools don't challenge them enough.
I've heard the argument that my children could learn so much more so much faster if they were homeschooled. Perhaps that's true. But life isn't a race. What if my child could complete her GED at the age of 13. What next? Homeschool college? I would never send my 13 year old to college, for a variety of reasons. But let's say that I did, and she earned her B.S. by the age of 17. So? What advantage is there in that, with the exception of entering the work-force as a minor?
I think arbilad got it right with the "superiority complex" of some homeschoolers. But is it because they think they are superior, or is it that I fear that they might be right, and I could be doing more for my kids?
I considered homeschooling. I really did. I read about laws and curriculums and how-to-homeschool books. I just never could feel myself going that route. I didn't see a real need. So why does it still bother me when other people proclaim the transcendancy of homeschooling?
Arb: my response to the superiority complex would be that we should be willing to show them that while we strive for the best, we don't consider ourselves better than the rest, by contributing to the educational establishment and working within the system, rather than proving them right with elitism...
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
From my POV, as barely starting to Homeschool a 5 yr old, we spent a bunch of time hesitatingly researching criticisms of homeschooling, wondering if it was really for us. It was an eye opener to see just how much of the passionate criticism was based on unexamined/shallow wrong assumptions, or just plain cluelessness. I'd say this journey is a common one for homeschoolers.
Someone could easily get so used to pointing out the dumbness of homeschooling criticism, they don't notice that they've gone on the offensive and are now in the habit of insulting people who don't have a beef with them.
Well, forewarned is forearmed. And since two arms is enough for me, I'll just stick with the "Danger - Unsocialized Homeschoolers on Board" bumper sticker attitude, and not make fun of my PS aquaintenances.
Well my husband's sister's family is very similar. They've already taught their young kids to criticize schools, and anyone who has anything to do with them. And yet the 8-year-old can barely read or write, and the 6-year old can't do either. They're really socially backward and they don't know how to deal with other kids. It's really sad and I kind of worry for them.
On the other hand I've known homeschooling families who ARE giving their kids superior education. Ironically, most of the ones doing so well are those who use the publicly-offered online homeschooling program.
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
I truly think that the bottom line is the parents. The parents attitudes will always be transmitted to the children, whether homeschooled or not. I believe the social awkwardness that Jen's neices and nephews have is a function of their parents, not necessarily homeschooling, per se. It may be made worse by the parents' criticisms of all things 'public school'. Just a guess.
And children of parents who value education and work with their kids to help them succeed are likely to do well, regardless of how they are educated.
I agree with you 100%. I think that it's an issue of corrolation, not causation; some people that are likely to embrace ideas that stunt their children socially would probably choose to homeschool. Not that all homeschoolers instill those ideas in their children.
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
Jen wrote: I agree with you 100%. I think that it's an issue of corrolation, not causation; some people that are likely to embrace ideas that stunt their children socially would probably choose to homeschool. Not that all homeschoolers instill those ideas in their children.
I would not even say that a large percentage of homeschoolers instill ideas that stunt their children socially. Studies have shown that homeschoolers are typically very well socially adjusted. Homestar Runner posted a few of those at Nauvoo. And I have met many homeschoolers (being one myself), and their children are by and large socially well adjusted. I have no doubt that you have seen examples to the contrary. But, by and large, the impression that homeschoolers tend to be socially maladjusted is a myth.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
. . . which is why I said, "some". I agree with you. I know a handful of homeschoolers, and of those, only one family has children that are socially behind. The rest are delightful. But people tend to remember people that leave a big impression, unfortunately! Just like some homeschoolers would say that publicly schooled children are neglected hooligans, when only a small percentage actually are.
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
I think that this perhaps illustrates why Bok meets homeschoolers that are, um, overenthusiastic about their choice. They overreact (as I think I did to your post, Jen) because they are used to people criticizing them for their choice. Thus they take the wrong approach, and go on the offense instead of defense, explaining why they think every other choice is wrong. And thus doing, they make the same mistake that they have suffered from; they make Bok feel attacked because of her education choice for her children.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
Ah, but if I was more secure, I wouldn't feel attacked, now would I?
Sorry if you felt I was badmouthing homeschool, arbilad & HSR. I guess I am mostly just venting about my interactions with this family.
But aside from that situation, I have read through several (5 or 6) books on homeschooling. All but one book were rather militant in their anti-school sentiments. There was no middle ground; either you were a good parent and homeschooled, or you neglectfully sent your kids off to be ruined by the government. It didn't do much to win me over to their way of thinking.
Nah - I don't feel badmouthed at all. Our take on things is simple - we're giving homeschooling a shot, because we figure that we (mostly my wife) can do a better job than the other options open to us. I do not believe homeschooling is the best option for everyone. I also think other options are just fine for lots of people - I think we've got particularly fine schools in our area.
One thing I've learned about homeschooling parents - you can't really paint them with a broad brush - we're all over the map as to why we do it, our opinions of the other choices, our ability to do it, etc.
I badmouth homeschooling all the time... mostly cuz I'd never dare do it in public. :)
--Ray
You'd never do what in public? Homeschool your kids, or badmouth homeschoolers?
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
My wife and I considered homeschooling recently when the politicians in Nazifornia were looking to make gay history instruction mandatory for all public school kids. It wasn't enough to teach that Sheldon Perville discovered Tritonun in the Sacramento Valley. They had to tell little Johnny and Suzie (or Juan and Jacinta) that Sheldon was a cross dressing flamer who liked to sing chorus songs, wear rouge, and dance in the streets in women's undies. Fortunately, some sanity prevailed, the bill got watered down and Arnold vetoed it. At the time this was going on though I began researching home schools and was really turned off by the attitude of some that if you didn't homeschool you were a bad parent or that every public school is a cesspool. My kids attend a very good school that my siblings and I grew up in. Many of the teachers that we had are still there and we turned out well. My wife is at the school daily as the Parent Teacher Club president keeping an eye on things. We may have to go the homeschooling route eventually but not yet. We are keeping a close eye on things though as any parent should.
I think the way to deal with the Holier than Thou Homeschoolers is the same way I mess with everyone that gives me attitude on things like that. Have a little fun with them. Send them emails showing how many child molesters live in their part of town. If they are paranoid about the schools let them be afraid of all the neighbors too. Then in casual conversations with them mention some outrageous school programs such as a "pistols for popsicles" exchange program where the students turned in their guns and got a free popsicle. Tell them how sucessful the program was taking 15 or more guns off the elementary school campus. Then start talking about the 2nd grader selling shots of whisky on the playground, the liberal tree hugger teacher from Humbolt State (aka Marijuanna U) teaching the kids to worship nature, etc. Then tell them how your child is looking forward to a career in the Janitorial Arts. For best results say this when little Johnny is out sweeping the porch. People with the Holier than thou attitude are too much fun. Next thing you know they won't even want to talk to you because you will be viewed as the wackos in the neighborhood. I purposefully let the rumor go around my ward that my family are a bunch of wacked out, gun toting, hicks, who let their kids play in the mud on Sundays, watch violent television, and drink Coke. Our friends know the truth and the busy body, hollier than thou types leave us along. That's what I call a win-win. Have some fun with it!
I'm a homeschooling parent and was not offended in the least. I can totally relate to your perspective. We don't make a big deal out of our choice, unless someone initiates the argument. I believe there are AWESOME public schools and TERRIBLE public schools. Same goes with people that educate their children at home.
We found a curriculum we totally agreed with and prayed and decided to do it. It's not easy nor does it make us superior to anyone else. It's only superior for our situation.
I encourage people to homeschool their children. Not simply to keep their children at home and teach them, but also to teach them after public school (that too is homeschooling). It is something I do.
If someone speaks disparagingly of the different state school systems, I tell them they have "some" reason for their complaints. If they think that their home schooling is superior to school, I tell them fine. They are allowed their beliefs. But since I am generally smarter than they are, I tell them that my public education experience and that of my children is such that my children know more than theirs, that I am smarter than they are, and the knowledge they pass on will be limited to their much smaller spheres experience and knowledge they have. Not to mention the miniscule wisdom they manifest when disparaging something they probably know nothing about.
I then congratulate them for ensuring that my children will always have servants to mow our lawn.
Homeschooling is a tool that can be used for good or evil, just like any other. It can also be used badly. But for many families, it is precisely what they need. Our child, for instance, was being very poorly served by public schools, despite our best efforts to teach him after school, make him do his homework, etc. So I'm glad that the option was available to us. But other parents make other choices, and as long as they make those choices thoughtfully and prayerfully, I cannot fault them. BTW, pretty much any tool can be used badly. One of the reasons my brother and sister in law don't go to church anymore is that the visiting teacher used the appointments as an opportunity to sell them Tupperware, so they came to dread her visits. Some (a very small minority) use homeschooling as a way to inculcate in their kids a belief in white supremacism, which is harder to do in public schools. But that doesn't mean that we should ban visiting teaching or homeschooling.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
In the day before history (or for that matter social studies), Homeschooling was an ancient relic that was a great boon to all people, and the land was good and prosperous until the evil overlord Schoolraun corrupted the ancient relic and bent it to his evil designs. At that time, Nine Lords stood up against the evil Schoolraun, and one by one they fell beneath the power of Homeschool, til the last Lord remained. This Lord miraculously vanquished Schoolraun and broke the Homeschool into three pieces. These pieces he hid throughout the land.
Now There is a force moving upon the face of the land, seeking to reunite the powers of Homeschool. You must search for the three pieces of Homeschool, lost in the three netherrealms of Public, Private, and Sunday. Only you can fight to save the world of Schooltopia from the ressurgent forces of Schoolraun, rescue the fair princess, and unlock the ancient secrets of HOMESCHOOL!!!
--Ray
-- Edited by rayb at 10:54, 2006-09-28
-- Edited by rayb at 11:33, 2006-09-28
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Netherrealms? Isn't that in our underwear? Or is that nether regions? I know the netherlands are in Europe, but then again, one is tempted to say nethermind.
Here is an interesting article about how blacks are increasingly homeschooling their children.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
I am always hopeful that black youth will overcome the all-too-common cultural inhibitions and make a stronger reach toward the incredible potential that they have. It really is heartbreaking when they squander the power that God has given them to become pillars of the community and shapers of a strong, moral foundation for this nation.
) Further usually their objection to the school revolves around one issue. 
I agree with you. I know a handful of homeschoolers, and of those, only one family has children that are socially behind. The rest are delightful. But people tend to remember people that leave a big impression, unfortunately! Just like some homeschoolers would say that publicly schooled children are neglected hooligans, when only a small percentage actually are. 
