Firing teachers?

historian · Senior Member

Firing teachers?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Teachers making $70K in RI? I'm in the wrong part of the country. I teach Kindergarten in Texas and make about $30K less.

Not sure how it works in RI, but where I teach, I sign a contract each year. If the school wants me to work beyond my contract, we have to legally negotiate a new contract, or they can pay me an hourly rate for after-school tutoring, etc. Teachers are professionals. Would you expect your accountant or doctor to work 25 minutes longer for you without pay? Do police officers work an extra 25 minutes per day for free?

I wholly support the decision to fire non-performing teachers. Let's not muddy the issue, though. They should be fired for non-performance, not because they refuse to work for free.

And for the few good teachers at that school, the superintendent just ended their careers. What other district will hire them now?

I'd be calling my attorney about now.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Not to worry, Roper, about RI teachers being paid 70K or whatever. What with the cost of living in RI and their higher tax rate at that income level, you may be living better than those RI teachers.

When I retired from my real life career, I did substitute teaching, every day for a total of about two and a half years. Especially when I was subbing for subjects that I enjoyed, I enjoyed spending a 1/2 hour or so after school giving extra help. But because I was a sub, my perspective was different than that of a full time teacher like Roper.

I learned quickly that I was no good with kindergarten and lower grades.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

You've got the right perspective, Lundy. And most teachers willingly work an additional 1-2 hours outside of school. By contract, I get paid for 7.5 hours of work each day. However, I'm almost always at school by 6:30 to do lesson planning and I usually leave around 4:00--an hour after the kids have gone home. So I work 9.5 hours and get paid for 7.5 hours. Additionally, all of the professional development required to maintain state certification I do on evenings or weekends, without any pay or reimbursement for travel or course fees. So I can certainly understand why the teachers pushed back when the district asked them to take another 25 minutes away from their families to work for no compensation.

We don't have the full story, but what should have happened was that last year the district should have given the school and the teachers an expectation with a measurable achievement standard and a consequence for not meeting the standard (just like we do with students): Improve student passing rate on standardized exams by 20% over the course of one year or your contract will not be renewed and the school will be closed. Light a fire under them. And if they don't perform, fire them for non-performance. The way the story got reported, it makes it look like the superintendent and the teachers' union got into a pissing contest.

DMGNUT · Veteran Member

I'm the new kid here and most likely don't know what I'm talking about, but the economy is bad every where.
People are losing their jobs every where. People are having their hours cut every where. Their pay cut, their benefits reduced, their insurance rates increased, their coverages reduced, etc, etc.
I'm not trying to poke anyone here in the eye, but why is it that government employees feel they should be exempt form the effects of the bad economy?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

DMGNUT wrote:
why is it that government employees feel they should be exempt form the effects of the bad economy?

How do you know government employees feel this way?

-- Edited by Roper on Saturday 20th of February 2010 06:47:41 AM

arbilad · Head Chef

What if the teacher gets a class of particularly obstreperous kids and, despite all their efforts, can't improve the pass rate in their class?
Not that I'm particularly fond of public school, but a teacher I know brought up that point.

DMGNUT · Veteran Member

historian wrote:

The teachers at the high school make $70,000-$78,000, as compared to a median income in the town of $22,000. This exemplifies a nationwide trend in which public sector workers make far more than their private-sector counterparts (with better benefits).

Roper, I agree we don't know the whole story here. I also agree, and freely admit I don't "know" what others feel. But I said, "I" feel this to be the case. I didn't mean to imply I knew others feelings, just extrapolating what seemed to be their general mind-set from the article.
I also agree with the above statement, that in general (and evidently especially in that town) the teachers seem to be head and shoulders above others in pay.
As I understand it, most government workers get an automatic annual cost of living increase and possible merit raises as well. I don't know, but does it take a change in the law to end that practice? Private workers just have their boss come in and say, "No raises this year guys". Which is pretty much what has happened and is still happening nation wide within the private sector.
I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, because I really like my job, and am doing well. But our hours have been cut, and the company discontinued raises about a year and a half ago (when the economy started to really slide).
I'll also freely admit I've never cared a wit for unions. They tend to foment (not in all, but in many) laziness and an entitlement mentality. In my opinion, they create more problems than they solve. My whole point was this...
I have to really question the thought process of anyone who sees the economic slump, nation wide lay-offs, pay cuts, etc, etc, etc, and then for whatever reason, think they should be immune to what's happening to pretty much everyone else in the work force.

-- Edited by DMGNUT on Saturday 20th of February 2010 02:03:24 PM

-- Edited by DMGNUT on Saturday 20th of February 2010 02:07:39 PM

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Arbi's question "What if the teacher gets a class of particularly obstreperous kids and, despite all their efforts, can't improve the pass rate in their class?" reminds me of 2 things which contributed greatly to my "retirement" from subbing.

1.) More and more I was getting calls to sub for classes that I considered prep school for juvy hall.

2.) Some school teachers and Admin personnel seemed intimidated by the clout that parents have.

I had a few really bad experiences (among some really great ones) in situations in which the kids were deliberately disruptive and/or some of the kids were totally lost in English.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

So here's my experience in being a "government worker." My first career was in the Air Force. While the pay was decent and I had very good benefits, I was deployed away from my family for long periods of time--something my private sector counterparts didn't have to worry about. After the AF, I worked with a team that educated neighborhoods and communities about disaster preparedness. We also planned and conducted response exercises. The program was funded by a federal grant, which was non-renewed after a year, and I lost my job. So yep, as a government employee, I felt the effects of a bad economy. Now, as a school teacher, I get paid less than most of my private sector peers with similar levels of education and experience. I have felt the effects of the economy as my salary increases over the past two years have been a fraction of the rise in cost of living, and the cost of my health insurance has nearly doubled as the district pays less of the premiums.

For generations, government employees in most fields have made less than their private sector counterparts. Only now, when the economy has had an extended downturn, are government employees being compensated near the same level of their private sector counterparts. And now everyone's complaining about it.

I wonder what effect the economy has had on law enforcement officers. Mirk--has your job become more dangerous? Are more people with idle time on their hands getting into trouble? Are more people shoplifting and stealing because they have no income?

I think it's an inaccurate and unfair generalization to state that government employees are exempt from the effects of a bad economy.

I'm with you on unions, however. I think they've become too powerful. I'm a member of UEA (United Educators Association) for only one reason--access to legal services. I'm a male Kindergarten teacher. All it takes is one frivolous accusation of sexual misconduct with a child, and my career and reputation is over. I'll go bankrupt trying to defend myself. My $20/month to the union gets me top-notch legal protection.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

It really stinks that Roper has to pay $20/Month to protect himself against a malicious accusation by one of this school kids or a parent. But in my subbing experiences I encountered attempts by students to provoke me to say and do things which could have gotten me fired or worse. And I was once accused of pushing a 4th grade kid's face into a wall. 4 kids testified I pushed him into a wall, a number of others plus another teacher testified they saw nothing of the sort. The principal chose to believe the 4 kids who claimed I pushed the one. Those 4 all sat together in the class room. A couple other unpleasant encounters are coming back to me now as well. So I guess, Roper, your $20 is probably well spent.

DMGNUT · Veteran Member

historian wrote:
The teachers' union has refused to accept these apparently onerous demands.
The teachers at the high school make $70,000-$78,000, as compared to a median income in the town of $22,000.

Roper, My initial comments were based on the above statements from the original post in this thread.
When I said, "why is it government employees feel a certain way...". I should have said, "why is it these government employees feel a certain way...". My bad.
What I'm confused about, is with the current economy, and what so many people are going through, why did these teachers listen to their union and squabble about 25 minutes? They were making 3 1/2 times more than the average pay in the area, and now they're unemployed.
Evidently they needed a better calculator to do the math on this problem... rolleyes

In a different economy, I have no doubt the end result of this dispute would have been quite different. But this all leads back to my initial comment about their feelings of (and I'm paraphrasing)... "I should be exempt from the troubles everyone else is enduring".
Was it poor timing for their desire to take a stand? Was it not giving enough serious thought to the old adage, "Choose your battles wisely"?
I really don't know what they were thinking or what their real feelings were, but in the end, I feel... they screwed themselves.

-- Edited by DMGNUT on Wednesday 10th of March 2010 05:45:22 PM

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Roper wrote:

I wonder what effect the economy has had on law enforcement officers. Mirk--has your job become more dangerous? Are more people with idle time on their hands getting into trouble? Are more people shoplifting and stealing because they have no income?

We are seeing some increases in thefts. I don't know that our danger level has increased, though we have a particular group of hardcore meth using thugs that are starting to get out of prison all at the same time. This group is rather violent, so I suspect we will see some increase. The nationally known outlaw biker gangs are finally openly establishing thier presence here, which will bring up the level of violence. Some aspects of our danger level is based on where you work. My first 7 years were in a more dangerous locale then I am currently in.