Israel

arbilad · Head Chef

Israel

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

One "peace process" failure after another should prove to the world that international "peace plans" which cover up the root problem of terrorism always lead to more war-especially in the Middle East. The Bush administration has been promoting the same old failed Oslo formula whereby Israel trades away occupied land in exchange for a temporary peace-a peace that is becoming more temporary with each new attempt. To me it looks like a deliberate plan to shrink Israel to an indefensibly small state. I think it is meant to force upon both Israelis and Arabs a physical separation leading to the establishment of a Palestinian State with increased powers to prepare future attacks upon Israel with the protection of state sovereignty.

On another note, Israel has one of the most tightly controlled statist economies in the world. It is socialist in the extreme due to a combination of early Zionist collectivist fervor and the influence of Russian and Eastern European Marxists that came to Israel and formed the core of the ruling Labor Party.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think if a single one of Palestine's rockets made it anywhere near US soil, they'd be a glass factory before you could blink.

arbilad · Head Chef

Will you continue to think that when Obama starts his rule?

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think that whoever is in office, if someone were to attack any US soil, as a country we wouldn't be as longsuffering as Israel has been. Retaliation would come much more swiftly. I guess I don't get what Obama has to do with that. The US isn't a dictatorship (I know some would add a 'yet', but I think we're pretty far from that even being a possibility today).

Organist · Senior Member

What if Israel launched a proportional attack? What would the Gazaans say if Israel simply lobbed 50 missiles a day randomly into Gaza? That would be a purely proportional response. Yet, it would rightly be condemned because it wasn't targeting Hamas, but rather everyone.

arbilad · Head Chef

Jen wrote:

I think that whoever is in office, if someone were to attack any US soil, as a country we wouldn't be as longsuffering as Israel has been. Retaliation would come much more swiftly. I guess I don't get what Obama has to do with that. The US isn't a dictatorship (I know some would add a 'yet', but I think we're pretty far from that even being a possibility today).

Constitutionally it depends a great deal on who is in office (whether we're following the constitution is another question). Even if Congress declares war, they have no power to fire the nuclear missiles, send ships, launch aircraft, or otherwise wage war. Constitutionally, without an order from the President, nothing will happen. So, if we're going strictly by the Constitution, it depends a great deal on who is in office.
Just as an example: Marijuana is illegal, but for the longest time the Sheriff in Boulder county did not enforce that law. Therefore, in Boulder County, no one was prosecuted for posession of marijuana. Same thing here: even if Congress authorizes it, even if the nation is clamoring for it, constitutionally nothing can happen if the president doesn't do it.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

A good point by Arbi: Even if Congress declares war, without an order from the President, who is the CinC of the military, nothing will happen. However, if Congress does not declare war, which it has not done since 8 December 1941, and the president orders military action based on a U.N. mandate, or on the basis of what lawyers tell him to do, as Mitt Romney said is a debate, or on the basis of what his advisors or anyone other than Congress telsl him, what do we have then?

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

"In the current Israel-Gaza conflict, it isn't as simple as "they fired rockets at Israel and Israel is attacking in self-defense." The larger question is how did those thousands of rockets get into Gaza---an enclave supposedly cut off from all the world by rigorous checkpoints? Yes, some crude short range rockets are built inside Gaza, but all the parts and explosives have to be brought in, as well as the larger, medium range rockets of Russia design, now being manufactured in North Korea, Iran and around the world. All these weapons are imported through a myriad of tunnels that run under the Egyptian-Gaza border. Egypt knows this and looks the other way. Israeli intelligence also has eyes and ears all over Gaza and knows this too, but doesn't act until it's too late. Why? To understand what's really going on inside Israel, Gaza, the West Bank and the whole Middle East, you have to understand the secret back room deals that the US and Israel have made with the various Palestinian factions. You have to see who is funding and backing the belligerents, and who has the real power to call the shots. We will never know all that is going on behind the scenes..."
Joel Skousen, Editor, Wofld Affairs Brief, 2 Jan 09

arbilad · Head Chef

The entire "security arrangement" that Israel got when it left Gaza was a farce. The Palestinians started breaking all their agreements as soon as power was transferred.

arbilad · Head Chef

I heard something today that I thought was interesting. A friend of a friend of a friend (yeah, I know, really reliable source, but it sounds like it could be true) was a photographer reporting on things in Israel. She was driving along and a siren sounded. Her guide told her to stop the car right there in the middle of the road. She said that maybe she should pull over first. He contradicted her and said that he was going to get out of the car even if she didn't stop. So she stopped where they were and they ran behind some concrete barriers. Then a rocket hit the area, spreading shrapnel all around.
This is part of everyday life in Israel, and everyone is getting on their case about attacking the Gazans for doing this.

Organist · Senior Member

This past Sunday, the New York Times had a good article on Hamas and their tactics of human shields.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?scp=4&sq=hamas%20israel%20human%20shield&st=cse

arbilad · Head Chef

That's the problem when you fight against someone who has no moral compunction against killing civilians, his or yours.

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

Just remember that all the information you see or gather about Israel is, like any other "news", generally, a combination of truth, half-truths, lies, and error. Any of you folks remember the report by a French reporter several years ago of an Arab boy shot and killed by some Israeli soldier during a scrap between Israeli soldiers and Arab terrorists. The media had a heyday over that until it was proven the boy was shot from behind by one of the terrorists. The MSM went silent on that in a hurry.

Something the MSM (mainstream media) has managed to conceal pretty well is the extent of the terrorists willingness to kill or cause the death of women and children. They positon themselves and their weapons in places where there are many women and children. I cannot imagine why.

Following are incidents that I haven't forgotten in 39 years from when I wroked in Israel.

The closest a katchuka ever came to me in 1970 was aimed at a school building. It penetrated the outer wall and exploded in the only unoccupied room in the building. The terrorists could have aimed at other more plentiful militarily significant targets close by, or at the lot of about 40 people I was with.

When I was working there terrorists set up a battery of several katchukas aimed at one spot on the road along the northern border with Lebanon. In the early morning they let the first army patrol vehicles pass, then other trucks and cars. They hit the school bus from Kiryat Shmonah, killing and injuring most of the kids and teachers on board.

A guy was caught by security forces sitting across the aisle from me on a bus carrying a gift wrapped grenade.

A group of terrorists snuck ashore one nite down near Tel Aviv and attacked a bus, killing most passengers. They could have easily bushwhacked any one of the many army vehicles travelling that road.

I visited a guy in hospital who'd had a foot blown off by a mine planted well inside Israel as he climbed down from a utility pole.

A Syrian artillery unit fired all the way into Tiberias one day when I was there. Both Syrian and Egyptian snipers shot regularly at Israelis and anybody else across the borders.

Not too many years ago a squad of terrorists got inside Israel and invaded a school building, killing I don't remember how many children and staff, when they could have just as easily sacrificed themselves on an Israeli army unit nearby.

That, folks, is the kind of people the Israelis are dealing with. And they also have to contend with politicians, including Americans and Israelis, who want to reduce Israel into a defenseless country willing to submit itself to government from outside the country, like the UN. Those are the kinds of people our news media is covering for much of the time. Their supporters, especially in the mainstream media, are pulling the wool over the eyes of many Americans.

arbilad · Head Chef

Amazing stuff. I'm sure that Israel is not without blame (their government is fairly socialist), but it seems fairly easy to affix blame for the conflict when one group has, as their stated goal, the total annihilation of the other.

historian · Senior Member

from an Israeli newspaper:

Palestinian convert comes out against Hamas

At the age of 15 Amnon Shahar escaped Palestinian Khan Yunis to Rishon LTzion, converted, became Jewish and a patriotic Israeli.This week, under the pervasive salvo of rockets, he went to Sderot, to express solidarity and to identify with them."The Gaza residents, they have chosen Hamas, they are living with their choice," he says, "I was there and I know. They do not want peace"
Orit Mader
Last Updated:
15.01.09, 16:04 15:01:09, 16:04

.Things seen from there: The amazing story of a Palestinian from Gaza, converted and became a member of a minyan in Rishon LTzion.
Beyond the hill that we are standing on, we see Gaza afar off. It's easy to recognize it because of the smoke that rises from there constantly, and the helicopters flying over head every few minutes, and are heard clearly.Amnon (Yitzhak) Shahar, stands and observes the billowing smoke and sighs."All I can say that they brought it on themselves. Its not that it doesnt hurt me that innocent people are victims, its just that I know exactly how many of these there are. Very few. Hamas did not take the government by force, it was elected by a large majority, for this is what the people believe is needed: to destroy Israel and to hate the Jews. "

Shahar returned to the South.."I'm mad at them."
While hearing these days many news critics, one gets a different light when you hear the words of Shahar.Shahar was born a Palestinian Muslim Arab in Khan Yunis..There now, beyond the rising smoke, resides his family.He grew up there among five brothers, and he ran away at age 15..From then, he managed to fight in court for the right to live in Israel, to become a resident and live in Israel.Since the age of 19 he has had no contact with his Palestinian family.Instead, he arrived in Rishon LTzion by the efforts of a Jewish family and went through the long convertion process, and in the end became Israeli and Jewish in all things.
Now, in the sight of the fire of war, he knows which side he belongs to, without feeling for a moment that he belongs to the other side.

Does it not cross your mind that you have siblings, parents, that are living under this shelling?
"It crosses my mind just when will the kassams stop. It crosses my mind when will the IDF already put an end to Hamas.I am angry about how they govern themselves there and I know that they can only blame themselves. "

Do you have no mercy for them?
"They do not have mercy for us, right? What is there to pity about them? They are murderers. If you think someone there has mercy on the residents of Sderot you are wrong. Hamas teaches hatred and the killing of every Jew wherever he is. When I was a kid, life was reasonable there , it is impossible to claim that life there was not good. They that changed that image, they did it out of choice. They brought on themselves the barriers, the restrictions, and now also the fire of the IDF.If we are in trouble, its because we gave them the power and weapons.You could say we shot ourselves in the foot. "
Shahar, sure of the justice of his way, is standing among the foreign media with their cameras focused non-stop on Gaza and tells them, "I came from there, I know how the children are raised to hate, you have no idea," but the media prefer to concentrate on photographing the bombing."No one wants to hear the truth," he says angrily.

It's not hard for you to see the news, to see families cut off there?
"It's not that there is no mercy in me. But I am mad at them, they are not guarding their own children.
I as a child, received this education, and I thank God that I didnt take to heart what they taught.The Gaza residents have chosen Hamas with the goal of destroying Jews.They chose it, they chose to send their children to be murderers, they teach their children to be martyrs.They do not want peace and nor do they want to live together.It is not related to humanitarian conditions in general, it is their choice.I see organized demonstrations against Israel and I want to ask them, where are the demonstrations against the rockets on Sderot? "

What are they thinking about you there, in Khan Yunis?
"They consider me a traitor, that Ive been brainwashed, they dont understand that have escaped their brainwashing. I no longer care what they think. I care what people go through in Sderot, and how I can help, and they are living with their choice."
The full story will be published this weekend in Yidiot Achronot Sunday. "

lundbaek · Profuse Pontificator

FYI, the term Palestinians originally applied to those Arabs who left Israel in 1949, when Israel became a state, expecting to return to Israel after it was pushed into the sea. They remain distince from Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian citizens. They were put into concentration/refugee camps, one of which I went into once in 1970. As far as I know they were never accepted into citizenship of Jordan, Syria or Egypt. Some made thier way into other countries. Other Arabs living in what was Israel between 1949 and 1967 seem to have fared pretty well. They established businesses, sometimes jointly with Jews. A few enlisted in the Israeli army.