Our Gospel Doctrine teacher made the comment Sunday that our country has been living in prosperity and pride for a long time, and now we're starting to move to the other end of the cycle, where we'll be tried and humble. At first it seemed like a radical statement, but you don't have to look around or watch the news much to see that he's more than likely right. I just wonder how bad it's going to get.
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
Don't Panic. I loved the irony of that phrase in the Hitchhiker's series. I've about given up on trying to see around corners. Even if I could see what was going to happen in the future I am not yet the person that will deal with it. We were never promised a rose garden. (Look at me go with all the cheesy references.)
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"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
Isn´t there always something brewing? Does a large portion of the USA make up the great whore? Yes, but we have known for millenia that she would have great power over all nations in the last days. That is no surprise. Fortunately, God has been warning us for years on what we need to do to prepare. Can you answer all the temple recommend questions correctly? Do you have your year´s supply of food? Then there is no need to worry. No need to run around in a panic. You have fulfilled God´s commandment, and thus he will give you the promised blessings of protection.
The time to panic is when the Obamanation is elected.
Europe is a whore, it sold itself long ago. Reminds me of on my mission there whenever the church bells would ring we would say, "The whore (or the harlot) is singing."
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Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever
I don't know. I have conflicting feelings about this. On one hand I see what is going on in our country and I think "not much longer now".
Then on the other hand, I see points of light and I'm not too concerned. For instance: The Church is expending millions of dollars to refurbish downtown Salt Lake City's commercial area around Temple Square. If our economy was headed for permanent disaster I don't think they would have approved such an expenditure.
What do you guys think? (PS - Isn't it supposed to be finished in 2012?)
The church was also highly invested in banking in the 1830s, and that brought financial ruin to many. I´m not sure if the church is the best predictor of wall street.
Oh, since I am in Maya land, the tour guide mentioned the 2012 calendar. It is not the end of the world, but rather the end of a cycle (1 revolution around the galaxy, they were amazing astronomers, noticing 1 degree changes in the stars positions every 78 years). This change in cycles is supposed to be associated with a lot of flooding. It was also described that death is a change in cycle, with the new cycle being a journey to the afterworld.
I like 2012 as a change. It makes me think that it is not an end, but a change to the way things are, such as the Millenium is a change. I predict the Millenium will come on December 21, 2012 or sometime thereafter.
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Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever
"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
Coco, you could do that right now if you moved to a tiny, tiny Church unit in the boonies.
Just sayin'.
I grew up in a District, and got to visit a lot of the branches with my family, so I've been to church in someone's home, a school, a community center, another church's building... Oftentimes these tiny branches have a really amazing Spirit and Zion-unified feel to them.
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They might not look it, but bunnies can really take care of themselves.
This thread shows some interest in future events, so maybe some of you will appreciate what I was able to transcribe from a 1998 talk by one of my best friend's father, who was a great student of prophecy as well as a professor of religion at BYU
THE NEXT 25 YEARS Essential transcripts form a talk by Dr. W. Cleon Skousen, given Late 1998
"So I turn to John...who saw our day. It begins on Chapter 8, Verse 1; he says At the opening of the seventh seal the half hour of silence will begin in heaven....if the half hour of silence egins at the opening of the seventh seal, thats next year (2000)....Thats probably only true if our calendar is right....now the question is, is it on target? In the 20th Section of D&C the Lord uses the Gregorian calendar, and says I want the organization of my restored church to be on the 6th day of April when it is one thousand, eight hundred and thirty years since I came I the flesh. In the 21st section He uses the Gregorian calendar again. So I feel pretty good about that. If He uses the calendar, Im going to use it. In the 88th Section it says that at the end of the half hour of silence is the second coming. The Lord says Ive never revealed the day or the hour of the second coming. What about the year? And so I have here a reference that youll be interested in where Bruce R. McConkie ...says "undoubtedly were talking about a period that can be calculated for a half an hour. Abraham and Peter both speak of Gods day equal to one thousand of our years....you divide 1000 by 24 to see if you can find out how long one of Gods hours is, and its just under 42 years. Whats a ½ hour? Its just under 21 years. So I use that as a basis for thinking that we are moving into a very exciting period starting with Y2K. Everybodys worried about the computers. Thats not all Im worried about. I want to know what begins with the ½ hour of silence. So I get over to reading John now; hes supposed to have the inside story. He doesnt say anything about history until he gets to Chapter 13. Revelations 13 says, during these 21 years, that is after the ½ hour of silence begins, you have 2 monumental dictatorships. The first one is identified by a beast that rises out of the sea. Some of those good friends of Hartman Recktor with whom hes associated suggested that was probably the North Atlantic Treaty. That was the one that fought WW2, thats the organization that then developed into the United Nations, and that is the organization that is now gradually taking over more and more power, the new world order. So Im watching the new world order very carefully. These are all conclusions on my part, but they fit. So Im watching the new world order. Will it fulfill Johns prophecy? He says it will gradually accumulate power to the point where it dominates the whole world. I watch it sending a ½ million troops, American troops at a time into this part of the world or that part of the world to enforce peace whether the people want it or not. It will not allow people to fight a war for their independence or for whatever purpose if they dont agree to it. This new world order is becoming tremendously powerful.....If our calendar is on target, were moving into the ½ hour of silence nest year (2000)...The silence is in heaven, not down here....Now, beginning with Chapter 13, you have the beast rise up out of the sea, and it was an ugly, gruesome creature. John says that it will set up a world dictatorship, and it will get to a peak of 3 ½ years, and then it will turn on the saints. Now thats an interesting verse. Verse 7 in Chapter 13. Turn on the saints! Well, I think that means turn on good people, and as a result of that it will be wiped out. John never tells you how its wiped out. He says in so you see, they who live by the sword die by the sword and the faith of the saints was vindicated. Well, John, you cant do that to us. Nephi didnt give us the details. We thought you would. Well, hes given you all you need.....So he left out the story....The story is contained over on the other side of the page. Because America gets cleansed at that time. Not only is the dictatorship wiped out, so are the dominant wicked gentiles who inhabit this continent. When it was seen in vision by Joseph Smith, he said I was amazed how the population of the entire continent was reduced to a point where therell be plenty of room for the 10 tribes when they come. However, there are 3 groups that gather to America to help build up back up again, and build the New Jerusalem, and build Zions cities from one tip of the continent to the other. This western hemisphere is a very special place in the eyes of God. 3 groups will survive. All the members of the kingdom who have covenanted with God are brought to America after it is cleansed. Thats all thru the scriptures. All of those who are righteous gentiles have a right to be preserved, and Brigham Young said when we set up Gods kingdom dont expect everybody to be members of our particular church. All the righteous who will be preserved will also be with us, and well put our arms around them and call them brother.....Now the other group are people that see the 2nd dictatorship rising and they want to get out of Europe. John says this beast is the one that rises out of the earth. And we know the mane of this one. Its Gog and Magog. And so they are invited by those of us who survive in America to all come to America. They are they who dont want to be drafted into the new dictatorship. They are invited to come to America. You got 3 groups that are promised sanctuary in the new America after its cleansing. Then guess what happens. D&C says that when that signal goes out to gather, dont dally or you wont be able to get to America. Why not? Luke saw the vison of it and he said you could neither fly nor sail. You couldnt get to America after the storms begin. This whole continent is isolated after the gathering. And you got 3 classes of people who will help build the New Jerusalem, theyll help build Zions cities, and well set up what is called Gods law. All thats in the scriptures, kind of tucked away here and there. Thats the future. And Im sure God would want us to glean that material out so that when the cleansing comes, we could be a little of the rough side. It isnt going to be easy for a while. We will know that great things are right up there in the offing....The second dictatorship doesnt touch us....Thats a most interesting thing. 45th Section of the D&C. As the 2nd dictatorship rises in power with Gog, Prince Gog, head of the gentiles, coming down out of the North, to attack and take over the whole world, except Zion. I dont know what scares him, but he doesnt dare touch Zion. And Im not sure whether the storms keeping him away, but Luke saw what it is, but definitely says he will not dare to attack Zion. So what he does is to set up what turns out to be the battle of Armageddon. This is the Lords plan for the Jews. My feeling is that during the 1st dictatorship, if they have their way, theyre going to take all the oil away from the Arabs. The reason that I assume that is because as the 2nd dictatorship is set up the Jews are all gathered to Israel, rebuild the city, and no Arab objects to the building of the temple, which they do right now.... As I contemplate all the facts here, I can visualize the 1st dictatorship, especially based on some of the books that have been written by some of the gentile leaders, that they are going to take all of the oil away from the Arabs....Something happens so that the Jews are able to build their temple under the 2nd dictatorship without any resistance. And they rebuild the city, rebuild the walls. Its wonderful. Now theres always a danger in gathering all your wealth to one place.
And thats what the Jews will do. And the temple in Jerusalem will be just loaded with the wealth of the Jews from all over the world....The mark of the beast, John says, is not adapted until the 2nd dictatorship....No, it wont come to America, it will not. He (Gog) wont come to America. The Lord assures us he will not dare attack America while were building the New Jerusalem, and my question is why dont we go over and help the Jews a little later on, because theyre going to need some help. Well be so busy doing what we have to do that we dont appear to be involved in Armageddon in any way. Im talking to you as fellow students, now, and I should say that God says that during the cleansing not only will the wicked gentiles be destroyed, so will the wicked members of the Church, and thats Section 112. And He says from my house the destruction will begin, and from my house will it spread, and especially those that have gone into my temple and blasphemed my name - by lying to the bishop or stake president, you know, to get a recommend or whatever. Thats going to be a very serious offense in the eyes of the Lord, and He said thosell be the first to go down, and it will be by plague and by sword, etc. ...Now He describes how the cleansing occurrs in the 97th Section, 26th Verse. In the 25th Verse we have our insurance policy. Stay close to me and youll go thru the cleansing withour a problem. No, I shouldnt put it that succinctly. Youll survive in good order. Your insurance policy is in 97:25. For those that get behind in their premiums its 97:26. Dont get behind in your premiums. The Lord said stay close to me, I will work it out....I will protect those who are faithful. ....Anyway, after Jerusalem is all built up and everything is in fine order, thats a great temptation to guess whom. And when they (Gog and the gentile leaders) come down, they just wipe out all the cities in Palestine, demolish them, till they reach Jerusalem, and then, as they try to destroy Jerusalem, they are suddenly faced with curtains of fire that come down around that city, and they learn from their intelligence service, no doubt, that theres a couple of prophets in there, and theyre calling down fire from heaven and it kills gentiles. It kills Gog and his people like 60, so they just for 3 ½ years they just sit there and then they get up the courage to try again...Now who are these 2 prophets? They are undoubtedly chosen servants of God. They are serving the King whose name is David...he is the one who supervises sthe building of the temple, and hes in charge during the 3 ½ years that Gog is attacking Jeruslaem. And they save the city for 3 ½ years,----
I think you know the rest of the story. I only intended to share with you Brother Skousens description of events between now and then, which I transcribed from a recording of his talk.
The mark of the beast is not coming to America?!? Phew! That's a relief! I was getting concerned about that and whether I'd know what it was, etc...
Pestilence and famine... we could come out of that in "good order" if we follow the counsel for food storage, huh? It's so simple, it's hard to follow I guess.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
For anyone interested, these are W. Cleon Skousens notes to the above talk which he sent to me sometime in 1999.
NOTES TO WHAT WE MIGHT EXPECT IN THE NEXT 25 YEARS
15 November 1998
Enoch saw our day when the LDS missionaries would flood the earth with the story of the Book ofMormon and the restoration of the Gospel. (Moses 7:62)
Isaiah saw our day but emphasized the coming forth of thee Book of Mormon. (Isaiah 29)
Nephi saw our day but was not allowed to write about it. The Lord said John the Revelator would record it. (1 Nephi 14:25)
So we turn to the Revelation of John.
Silence in heaven (to prepare the earth for the second coming) begins with the opening of the seventh seal (2000 A.D.) (Rev. 9:1) Second coming occurs at the end of the half hour of silence. (D&C 88:95) So how long is half an hour?
Half an hour by Gods time is approximately 21 years. (See Abraham 3:4 1000 divided by 24 equals just under 24 years for one hour of Gods time. One half of this equals just under 21 years for half an hour.) (See Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, Pg. 382)
Is our calendar accurate so that we know the opening of the seventh seal in 2000 A.D.? In 1582 Pope Gregory had astronomers correct the calendar according to the sun. Modern revelation uses the Gregorian calendar D&C 20:1 and 21:4.
During these 21 years after the opening of the seventh seal, John saw two mighty dictatorships. (Revelation 13) The first dictatorship rises out of the sea. Could it be the Atlantic Treaty which fought World War II ? It set up the United Nations which combined the United States and Europe into the North Atlantic Treaty. (J. Ruben Clark, Stand Fast by Our Constitution, pp. 84 - 94) Today the United Nations is promoting The New World Order as the policeman of the world.
Notice that during the sixth seal, John saw the sealing of the 144000. (Rev. 7:3 - 8). However, this is an anointing in heaven. (See Alma 13:3 and commentary of Joseph Smith, Church History, vol. VI, p. 364). Nevertheless, the actual ministry of the 144000 here on earth is mentioned later in Revelation 14:1 - 5. They do not go forth until it is time to seal up the Saints who are to be "caught up" just before the Second Coming (D&C 77: 11) and seal up the wicked to destruction who reject the gospel.
The first dictatorship increases its power until it dominates the whole earth for 3 ½ years or 42 months. (Rev. 13:5). Then it turns on the saints (Rev. 13:7) and is wiped out. But John never tells us how this is done. His only commentary is Revelation 13:10.
The cleansing of America and wiping out of the first dictatorship is described in 3 Nephi 16: 10, 12; 20: 14 - 20 and by Joseph Smith in Teachings, p. 17 of the 1971 edition.
After the cleansing, all of the LDS are gathered to America. (D&C 45:71). Also those are invited who want peace and do not want to be drafted into the second dictatorship. (D&C 45: 68 - 69).
America is then sealed off from the rest of the world by violent seas so people can neither fly nor sail to reach Zion. (D&C 61:15 - 16). Luke saw these "roaring seas" (Luke 21: 25 - 26).
This isolation is an ideal situation for the building of the new Jerusalem and setting up numerous Zion cities in America. (D&C 45: 66 - 67).
It seems that during the cleansing of America there will be a gathering of the Jews back to Jerusalem. They will bring their wealth to beautify the city and rebuild the temple. (Ezekiel 34: 6 - 24 and Ezekiel 40 - 42).
Now John describes the rise of the second world dictatorship under Gog, prince of the Gentiles. (Rev. 13: 11 - 18; Ezekiel 38: 2 - 12). Any who do not support the dictatorship are killed. (Revelation 13: 15). Gogs followers receive a mark in their hand and their forehead. No one can buy or sell without this mark. (Revelation 13: 17). However, Gog does not dare to attack Zion or America. (D&C 45: 70).
Prince Gog covets the wealth of the Jews and lays siege to Jerusalem for 3 ½ years. (Daniel 7: 25). This is called the battle of Armageddon. Two prophets hold back the forces of Gog during this period by calling down fire from heaven. (Rev. 11: 15).
Finally, after a fierce assault, Gog penetrates Jerusalem, kills the two prophets and leaves them lying in the street while Gogs army ravages the city and celebrates for 3 ½ days. (Rev. 11: 7 - 10; Zechariah 14: 2).
Suddenly the two prophets come alive and arise. (Rev. 11: 12) to join Jesus as he descends on the Mount of Olives with the Saints. The mountain splits in two and the fugitive Jews escape through the valley. (Zechariah 14: 4).
Jesus and the Saints apparently withhold their glory and the Jews gather about them in adoration. Someone asks, "What are these wounds?" etc. (D&C 45: 51; Zechariah 13: 6). He replies, "I am Jesus Christ." (D&C 45: 52) Jews are taught the gospel and become followers of Christ. (Exekiel 39: 22, 29).
Name of Jerusalem is changed to Jehova Shamah, "The Lord is there" (Ezekiel 48: 35). Arab nations and Gentiles are also converted. (Zechariah 8: 22 - 23). The saaints of Old Jerusalem become united with the saints of New Jerusalem. (Isaiah 11: 13; Isaiah 2: 3)
I've posted these notes and the above talk by Dr. Skousen somewhat reluctantly because of the propensity of some to attack the messenger instead of the message when disagreements arise. Years ago I lived a year and a half in the basement of Dr. Skousen's house in Provo, and learned that he was/had been very close with President McKay and President Benson, who encouraged and supported some of his work. Re. his interest in prophecy, he never passed himself off as the last word on the subject, but rather as a student of these things. He did not present the above as fact, but rather as conclusions of his studies. Also, careful as I tried to be, there may have been some error in my transcription of the talk from a tape recording.
Organist, I tend to look at all the executive orders that are signed by each "president" as a form of dictatorship. True it is not "in your face" dictatorship like what we have seen in history or see today in some countries, but when my freedoms are erroded away by the mark of a pen, it sure feels as oppressive.
I've done enough studying of this type of thing and have had many personal revelations concerning these things, that I am ever vigilent to be always prepared both spiritually and temporally.
Lundbaek, I've been a student (just reading his books) of Bro Skousen. And also of H. Verlan Anderson, J. Rueben Clark, and all the prophets, especially Ezra T. Benson for many years. David O. McKay was very outspoken on these things, but he is less quoted than Pres. Benson for some reason.
Maybe fewer people now alive remember David O. McKay than remember Ezra Taft Benson.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
arbilad, I'm only 50, was a kid and not even active when David O. McKay was the prophet, but as an adult I've read a few of his books. Just like I read books/talks by other prophets that came before. And I'm certainly not old enough to remember J. Rueben Clark!!!! but I know from reading his books/talks what a great patriot saint he was.
My point, the books are out there to read what these great prophets of God had to say about these things.
