FLDS Raid

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

FLDS Raid

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I'm guessing UT and AZ are watching really closely to see what happens in TX.

I am watching, too. And reserving judgement for the time being.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I haven't followed it much. Are these people followers of Warren Jeffs, or some other group?

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

I think it is an interesting lesson to law enforcement. What do you do with that many kids after you remove them?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Have a marathon court hearing and the biggest child custoday case in US History, apparently.

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

I in no way condone the marriage of teenage girls to old guys but there are some things that disturb me about this case. From everything I've heard they have not found the girl that allegedly called and reported the abuse in the first place. If this was the basis for your warrant and then it turns out there was no girl it makes me worried. What if the call came from someone outside of the community with an ax to grind.

Then out of the hundreds of women only a handful were teen girls that were pregnant. We probably had that many in our small town. Since few of these women will want to cooperate for fear of losing their children and even husband it is going to be a difficult case. Say you are a mom with five kids who has basically been living a 19th century lifestyle for most of your life. If you say their daddy married you when you were 13 he goes to jail and they might take your kids away from you. Unless you were unhappy with the life you were living to the point that you wanted to risk that then why would you cooperate. And lets say you do cooperate and they do let you keep your kids. Your whole community support is now gone, your financial support is gone, and you are thrown out into the world with basically nothing. Again, who would want to go through that. Suddenly you are a welfare mom with no skills that work outside of the community. You've lost your religion and your kids are thrown into the public school system. Nice.

I don't see how anything postive at all will result from this. But people act all horrified that this could happen in this day and age but the same thing happens all over the world. I just wonder if the law enforcement action will do more harm than good long term.

Of course if the polygamist had any sense they would let the kids turn 18 before they spiritually marry them and then it is just consenting adults deal. I really don't know what the answer is but I do know that it makes all of us look like cooks through association because many people think we are just like those folks.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I can see the problem with them getting "mainstreamed" suddenly to America circa 2008. I think we're trying to show them a better way... enlighten them, right? You don't have to marry some geezer at 14 and get no education... I don't know much about their day to day life (except what I learned on Big Love - ha) so it's just speculation... anyway, it's sort of like how we want to help the other countries of the world see our way, isn't it?

I sort of think they've been brainwashed in a way. Of course, many people think WE are brainwashed, would be the rebuttal. But they are told they must marry this geezer in order to even *think* about an eternal salvation. But on the other hand, that sounds quite familiar to 19th C. mainstream Mormon doctrine. But they totally believe that what they are doing is right - persecution, etc. - that doesn't change anything because it's a fallen world full of fallen men that are persecuting them. But on the other hand, that sounds like what "our" guys went through around the time of WW's manifesto.

They probably have had very similar "spiritual" experiences and feelings and thoughts and reasonings to ours. We both think we are right.

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

I don't think I'm right, I know it! !-)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

They don't think they know it? I mean, why are people still doing that after what went down with Warren Jeffs? They just can't fathom having any other kind of life? I guess they really can't. If they've grown up that way and all... it would really take some balls or something to go against the grain.

Dyany · Senior Member

This whole raid thing scares me, honestly. I am grateful for FoxNews' constant 'this cult is in no way affiliated with the Mormon church', but I see a church of probably mostly decent folk who have been deemed a cult because of their beliefs being sorely mistreated on the uncorroborated claims of some unknown, probably an anti who completely fabricated the whole thing. I see their temple desecrated. I see ALL of their children taken away, without any sort of evidence of abuse, 'just in case'. And I see everyone jumping on the bandwagon to demonize these people. Though we are much larger and considered more mainstream, there are a huge number of people who see no difference between our religion and this 'cult.' What would happen if, say, some anti made an anonymous call to authorities claiming that we did something horrific in our temples? In the Wasatch front they might be laughed at, but I could see such claims being taken seriously in the Bible Belt. And whatever rights have been taken from the FLDS will be taken from us, make no mistake. It scares me.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

What rights are you afraid of losing that they'll have taken away, specifically.

If any of the stuff about marrying girls at puberty and such are true, they needed to be taken away.

palmon · Senior Member

-- Edited by palmon at 00:42, 2008-04-17

palmon · Senior Member

I'm just curious if they are willing to raid and take the children in Muslim communities now? In Denmark there is a minimum age for marriage - unless you are Muslim.

I'm with Dyany here. If there is evidence in individual families that a child is being abused - yes, investigate and take the children if they are endangered. But to take all the children of the community, using the phone call of a girl that can't be found - I think that is a dangerous precident. Because the kids might be abused at some future time? I guess just about every kid in the US can be taken with that justification. Because they are being brainwashed by a cult? I think there are some that would say that we do that. Heck, with what is being taught in schools about sexuality being totally opposed to what we teach our kids - some may say that we are definately brainwashing our kids and denying them a full sexual life. According to the UN, we just might be in trouble.

Dyany · Senior Member

Of course I don't think that forcing teenage girls to marry is okay. But there was no evidence of that. And even if there were, why take the boys? the toddlers? the babies? That's not protecting the children from abuse. That's taking EVERY child in the instance that some sort of abuse MIGHT occur to children AROUND them.

I am afraid of losing our right to live our religion as we see fit, including keeping temple ceremonies sacred and private.
I am afraid of losing our right to raise our children as we see fit.
I am afraid of losing our right to be different, or a "peculiar people", without being judged and labeled a 'cult'.

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

I'm torn on this whole thing. On the one hand, there are a lot of women who have left the commune and told their stories of horrific abuse--marrying young, raped by their husbands, being a baby factory, prevented from leaving, young men being turned out on the streets to avoid competition, etc. Granted these women are bitter so their stories may be fabricated, but there are several of them who have the same story.

And if this is true that they are forcing young girls into marriage and raping them, then I'm all for going in and doing something about it.

But, I'm also with Dyany on this. If there is no real evidence and only speculation or a faked phone call, then this really scares me. How can the government have the right to dictate to me how I believe and raise my children? I have the right to believe however I wish and if you think I'm wacky, then you have that right. But you don't have the right to take my family from me and desecrate something that I believe is sacred.

I think the problem is that this group is so self sufficient and self governing. They refuse to have any outsiders in their commune. I can understand their desire for privacy and wishes to be self sustaining. But it casts suspicion when people aren't willing to speak to others or allow government officials in to inspect things.

Pt314 · Senior Member

The whole situation disgusts me. I don't know what to think.

I feel like I must choose between a totalitarian government or allowing groups of people to rape their kids. Surely this could have been done better.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Well said, Dyany!

How this all pans out will be something to see... Maybe they won't stop until the FLDS simply no longer exist...? It makes us cringe, doesn't it, the thought that we may one day not be so accepted and well-liked by mainstream America and the media?

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

The media makes a big deal about the pregnant teenage girls. We have about the same amount in town here and the populations are similar in size.

historian · Senior Member

What concerns me most about the "call for help" is that there is no recording of it, only some handwritten notes. Then I read that they went into the compound (beware when the mainstream media calls your group of structures a compound) with armored personnel carriers.

Yes, picking up all the teenaged girls to interview them might have be a reasonable response, but to remove ALL children, let some mothers accompany them, and then send away all the mothers whose children were over 4 -- that is an unreasonable response. Can you imagine how your five year old would be feeling? Snatched away from home and family like that?

Our media is circulating lots of stories that seem calculated to demonize the group, and let us believe that the government is doing the right thing.

But I ask you, what excuse do they have for putting all the teenaged boys into a boys ranch foster home? What exactly can those boys have done to deserve that? That they might become abusers someday?

I'm not saying that I condone polygamy now, nor am I saying that a girl's cry for help should be ignored, nor should young girls be forced into early marriages.

What I am saying is that we should be a constitutional republic, treating everyone according to just laws, and not media hype. If the men of the group have been breaking the law, then they should be tried for their crimes. The men are the only ones they have left alone. The specific man accused - Barlow, iirc - was/is in another state at the time of the accusation.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Man, this is just almost too hard to take when you think of the little kids who don't know what the heck's going on. I didn't know any mothers were able to stay with the kids. I was thinking, Gosh, if there's 100 of them under age 4, you know a lot of those kids are probably nursing babies - what about them? Who's feeding them?

Seems like it should've been the men who were rounded up and taken away. If they ended up being put in jail, then the moms and kids can think about what kind of life to make for themselves next.

I don't know, the more I look at this the more I get bad feelings for the ripple effect down the road.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

THIS makes me very very nervous that Texas may have made a huge mistake.

The Texas authorities haven't found the girl who made the call. The man who was named as the girl's husband apparently hasn't been to Texas for years. Then this wacko from Colorado gets arrested for making bogus calls to abuse hotlines. She also called Flora Jessop, who runs a shelter for women trying to escape from the FLDS lifestyle, claiming to be the same 16yo girl that called Texas authorities. Is she simply a copycat? Or did she make those calls to the Texas hotline that precipitated the raid on the FLDS ranch?

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

And more:

At the top of page 2:

"On April 4, a day after Texas police raided the compound, an abuse hot line in Arizona received a similar call from a 16-year-old who said she was calling from the FLDS community in Colorado City, Ariz.

The girl said she was being held against her will and physically abused, said Fernando Vender, a spokesman for the Arizona Department of Economic Security, which oversees child protective services.

When Arizona investigators visited a family with the same name provided by the caller, they did not find the girl or any evidence of abuse, he said. Though the case remains open, investigators "could not verify that there was a young girl by that name, with that family and that abuse was going on," Vender said."

So which state did it right? Imo - Arizona did. It's starting to look like Texas went in half cocked and snatched all those kids "just in case" without even checking whether the call was placed by a real person. I don't wanna believe that's what they did, and maybe more info will emerge to show that the girl is real. But it ain't looking good right now.

Edit: what the heck? Why can't I get my block in the quote box? Grrrrr

-- Edited by bokbadok at 23:43, 2008-04-17

-- Edited by bokbadok at 23:44, 2008-04-17

Fregramis · Senior Member

I am torn on this issue....

Does anyone know if these families are getting food stamps or state medicaid? Because if they do, they are already bound to a system that controls their food supply and health. The state then had some leverage going in there on a threat of abuse to investigate.

On the other hand, how long is it until the government takes my kids away because I endangered them by making three girls share a bedroom and homeschooling?

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

double ditto to fregramis on his concerns.

Organist · Senior Member

Anyone see the 20/20 expose on Friday night? You can tell by the creepy music and black and white video effects that those Mormon Fundamentalists are scary!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I think these people live off Medicaid and food stamps - all the "single moms" you know.

Dyany · Senior Member

From what I gathered from the news reports, all the reporters and officials were surprised at how 'self reliant' and 'self contained' the community was, so I don't think they used any welfare whatsoever.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I saw a tv thing on them a few years ago that said they were up to their eyeballs in goverment aid, actually Dyany. I don't know if that's still currently the case, but I'm guessing that what a reporter might be impressed by might be lifestyle and maybe even preparedness stuff. They still have to buy stuff and whether they bought it with welfare and food stamps or not wouldn't be visible on the surface.

Dyany · Senior Member

hmm...the stuff I saw said they were pretty self-sustaining as to food and clothing and necessities like that...but it wasn't an in-depth study and I guess there ARE other things that they could need welfare with.

Come to think of it, I have seen stuff about Utah FLDS needing welfare before myself...I wonder if the Texas compound is different?

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Yeah, well the whole on welfare and breaking the law angle stuck out in my mind because it ticked me off.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

This whole thing is looking more and more like a major mess up.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

And I was originally really willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the Texas authorities.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Aren't the kids already on their way to new foster homes? I think they have some pretty hard evidence that we just don't know about yet.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Maybe. Time will tell. I want them to have good evidence, because if they don't, this is one monster mess.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Now it seems the "fake" phonecall that started it all is totally irrelevant. They found enough evidence of sexual abuse to warrant the removal of all the children. That's what I heard on the radio this morning...

arbilad · Head Chef

I haven't heard yet about solid evidence of sexual abuse, but I have heard that the original phonecall was proven to be fake. It was traced back to a lady in Colorado. You'd think that they could have established that more quickly. Maybe they were just in a hurry to find an excuse to raid the compound.
It's a bad situation all around.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'm curious, do you guys think that finding girls under 18 having babies by men more than twice their age isn't evidence of sexual abuse?

Aside from that, I've heard a few different "escapees" talk about the sexual abuse that happened in their homes on other compounds.

arbilad · Head Chef

If that's proven, then yes, that's solid evidence of abuse. But last I knew they still weren't even sure who the parents of the kids were, so they're doing DNA testing.
Innocent until proven guilty and all that stuff.
But what I wonder about is why they're suddenly concerned about it in this polygamist compound, but the government doesn't get on Planned Parenthood's case for counseling young girls to not tell that an adult man got them pregnant. They're helping to cover up widespread sexual abuse of young girls, but since abortion is politically correct they get a free pass.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I'm curious, do you guys think that finding girls under 18 having babies by men more than twice their age isn't evidence of sexual abuse?

Hmmm. No. Not that parameter alone. It could be abuse depending on willingness and/or just how far under 18 said girls are. Haven't seen any detailed reports about this.

(And to be candid, I've read maybe half a dozen news stories online about this raid and haven't seen any TV reports.)

I'm reasonably certain that some amount of abuse has happened in the FLDS communities. My concerns about this turning into a big mess come from the following areas: was there enough evidence of widespread abuse to yank ALL those kids? I also worry that this might set a very bad precedent for going after unpopular groups. (I can think of a few ways I might belong in an unpopular group...)

arbilad · Head Chef

You're right Hiccups, to me that is the most disquieting part of this whole thing - now the government can go after any group it wants. They don't even need evidence to act. Sure, it seems likely that now they have evidence. But the call they claim they went in because of originated in Colorado, not Texas. You'd think that'd be fairly easy for a law enforcement agency to determine. And it's extremely disquieting that they went in in armored personnel carriers.
And we LDS could quickly become extremely unpopular. Would it be a stretch to imagine that if severe food rationing becomes reality, the government would want to seize church records and go to LDS houses and see who is hoarding food? In a near starvation situation, is anyone going to feel sorry for you because they hauled you off to prison for having enough food to feed your family?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I can't help but think that if this were some break-off Amish polygamy thing, the LDS wouldn't be giving a rat's tail about what was going on. People concerned with the power of the gov't and CPS, etc. would, but not the Church as a whole. This hits close to home for us. Joseph Smith is whom they claim to follow. Joseph Smith and others married 13 year olds. We can't come down on them too hard, because we are really more like them than we think. Stopping polygamy was an event that happened for a variety of reasons, I think, some of which were political. The Church never could've grown to the size it is now had we stuck to that path. Maybe we also think to ourselves... "Gosh, if I would've been born a mere 150 years earlier, that could've been me..."

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Oh, this absolutely does hit home more because it's a break-off of the LDS church. Whatever side of it you're on. I gives the "go get 'em all and put an end to the abuse" types more reason dislike the FLDS and it gives the "it could be us next/their rights are being trampled" types more ability to relate to them. Considering I swing wildly back and forth between variations of both of those, I've thought about it some. hmm

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

How do you convince someone that their whole belief system is not based on truth?

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Have 'em drink the Kool-aid?

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

It's Crystal Light!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

So... not in this life? Is that what yer sayin'?

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Well, I can't do it in this life. That's a job for the Holy Ghost. I was just thinking the Kool-aid would send 'em on to the afterlife to start figuring things out.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

And I was being silly. (I know, shocker.)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Maybe that's what bugs me the most about this whole thing... even if the people "get free" of the compound and Jeffs, etc. .. they still don't get it. It's all they know. Can people get out from under something like this? We know it's wrong and false but do we just step back and say, "Well, that's their privilege to worship how they want." They don't even know what they're doing, I don't think.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/29/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html

FLDS teen has a baby boy.