I was thinking about the nature of immortality and Zion the other day, mostly because I'm working on a new fantasy story series, in which there may be some characters or a race of characters which are immortal, and it occurred to me that if such a society were to exist ever, that the characters would HAVE TO let things go... because immortals cannot afford to bear grudges.
It was a fascinating notion. I don't think making mistakes is necessarily as dire as the ability to admit wrong, and the willingness to forgive and forget, even if you're the one that's wronged, if you're intent upon living forever in happiness. Otherwise whatever children you have, you would pass on your biases... and whatever creations you created would be incomplete or anathema... Or you'd have to endlessly create seperate kingdoms for all with whom you were not personally at odds... but then, once you've got no one to be at odds with, I kept imagining those who cannot forgive as EVENTUALLY finding some reason or disagreement with this person's allies, and eventually all allies would be ostracized... therefore the inability to forgive ultimately leads oneself to loneliness and isolation, in eternities...
The very idea of immortality in an exhalted state, at least, seems to dictate the need for forgiveness.
Anyhow it was an interesting train of thought that came out of my thoughts on what immortal "happy" creatures would have to do...
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
If your immortals did bear grudges, it would make for some great feuds. Lots of Greek mythology has to do with the various gods and godesses extracting vengeance for past slights. So you could have an immortal society with grudges, and it would make for some fantastic wars.
I think the hardest trait involved in forgiveness is the process of forgiving one's self.
That must truly be a divine characteristic because being mortal, I struggle with forgiving myself for my failings all of the time.
Perhaps a balance between those who already have the skills and those who are learning them since we believe that we continue to learn and progress beyond mortality . . .
I don't know that forgiving oneself is the most difficult for every person. It probably is different for differing people. Christ expects everyone to forgive everyone... he talks a lot about turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, etc... but I think it's because it MUST be so if we are to be exhalted.
I've met people who have great difficulty believing that others (who offended them) "deserved" their forgiveness. (I have some siblings... err... I like to say "they have an overdeveloped sense of Justice" ) Yet when you try to earn their trust, You can plead with them, admit you're wrong, apologize, whatever... try to make it up, and it's never quite enough.
Immortals could agree to just keep their distance one from another, forever and ever... but ultimately one could never grow/influence/know all space and time, as a result... because you wouldn't be allowed to know those parts where another equal immortal on equal footing as you, which something of a dillemma if the objective is to become like Father.
Yet the concept of differing degrees of glory makes a lot of sense in such a context.
--Ray
-- Edited by rayb at 00:31, 2008-01-05
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I guess this can work against you from several angles. There's those who are in your face like, "YOU need to get over it, cuz in YOU lies the greater sin," without a sincere desire for restitution at all. Then you've got the feelings within yourself, whether a sense of justice as ray says or whether it's just hurt or anger that you can't seem to shake. Then others step onto the stage with their baseless opinions, telling you what theeeeey would do in the same situation, as if they could even know that. Then you've got the problem of when to draw the line, if there's some egregious sin like abuse toward your child going on - some people try to say you must trust people- that's part of forgiveness. Others think love is part of forgiveness. You must love the perpetrator or your forgiveness is phoney. Then, when there's different members of the family involved, you've got all that to deal with too - everyone's coming from different perspectives, clashing and overlapping...
But I'm with Janey on this (if this thread is even about books, really) that feuds would be very entertaining. Do you think God holds a grudge against Satan? Satan is "winning over" many of God's children every day... and this will go on for some time. Would God's actions toward Satan be different one way or the other?
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Ray, if this is a concept you are going to try to incorporate into you storylines, try and be careful that it is doctrinally correct, otherwise it may skew your readers understanding of what forgiveness is.
Withholding forgiveness breeds hatred, even amongst family members and friends. And withholding forgiveness of one's self breeds hatred of oneself. One thus denies the reality of Christ's forgiveness to him or her, because they can not believe anyone would forgive them since they themself do not. And if they can not forgive themself or believe they are forgiven, then they likewise will find it hard or impossible to really forgive those who have wronged them. And where there is no forgiveness, there is no charity, and where there is no charity, there can be no Zion. And where there is no Zion, there can be no higher Celestial law. And where there is no Celestial law, there can be no exaltation. And where there can be no exaltation, there can be no hope. And if there is no hope, there is no chance for forgiveness. And if there is no chance for forgiveness, repentance is useless. But repentance is not useless, for there is the chance of forgiveness. And because there is forgiveness, there is also hope. And because there is hope of exaltation, there is a Celestial law that can be learned and followed in Zion. And because individuals try to be Zion, there is charity, and because there is charity, there is ample forgiveness to go around. And because forgiveness is given, forgiveness is received from Christ. And because Christ forgives, one learns to see him or her self in the same light as Christ sees him or her and are thus humble. And because they are humble, they are able to forgive themself and not deny the forgiveness Christ gives them upon their repentance. And because they forgive, they are putting off hatred and all manner of ungodliness.
If that is doctrinally correct, maybe it can help as you develop the concept for your storyline.
__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
The point is that these are immortal beings. They HAVE TO forgive each other, or else the universe in which they share will be hell. (I admit my viewpoint on forgiveness is pretty simplistic, though...)
I guess it does make sense that there must be a mediator. A neutral (is that the right word? Perhaps "loving" is better?) third party through which they can all turn--or upon which they must all acknowledge as making the forgiveness worth it. Is this why the atonement had to be so painful--so that the Gods could let go of their righteous anger for His sake?
This is the part in the story where I'm having difficulty defining. If I make the story too obvious about Christ, then no one will read it--cuz they'll just think I'm just writing a preachy story. Maybe I shouldn't define a mediator, and just create a hellish world with no such figure, and have the main character come in and point out just how ridiculous and hurtful these immortal gods are being to each other.
But then, that won't make anything better. It'll just be a sad satire with no solution. And I like happy endings.
--Ray
-- Edited by rayb at 15:16, 2008-01-05
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
You can forgive, and still make yourself safe from further actions of the person you're forgiving. I haven't really explored that as far as Satan is concerned. . . but where people are concerned, you can actively take care of your own welfare and still feel forgiveness.
__________________
"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
Well, my idea for the story would be that the immortals would have to eventually recognize that the only true "safety" was when every other immortal forgave every immortal, unless you have the power to banish another.
But if forgiveness doesn't occur, then those who banished one, would eventually banish all... I mean eternity is a really long time... ultimately they'd all end up banishing each other...
But among these immortals they all hold the same power. Maybe there's a penalty box, temporary banishment... But then, there's the danger that one immortal comes back and bearing a secret grudge, creates more and more devious plots for revenge.
(Or Like Janey says, major battles... In a way the Greek gods make a lot of sense, given that context... each immortal takes a power, like the sea, or the earth, or death, or lightning, and then they battle... :)
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Wouldn't it be something if the Terrestial Kingdom was the Celestial Kingdom where you're immortal, you have been given a certain amount of power over something, but then nobody quite gets along... Kinda like the greek gods with rivalries and such... :)
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
ray- It wasn't God's CHILDREN wanting to forgive Satan, I was wondering how you look at God's relationship with Satan.... casting him out, cursing him, damning him, etc... and how that works into your idea of forgiveness. Are they mutually exclusive?
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
I came across a whole religion on my mission that had an answer for those questions, coco.
My companion and I were teaching concepts from a couple discussions to this elderly couple after they let us in the door. They were agreeing with everything and then went off and started talking about how everyone would make it back to The Father's presence... even Satan and those who followed him in the pre-existence.
It was like being spiritually blindsided with a broadside cannon attack. The Spirit that we had been working on getting in the room left faster than you could say "Oh".
I am not sure, but I think they were some sort of splinter group from the New Apostalic Church...
__________________
It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Ray, it sounds as if you have equated immortality with omnipotence. Is that true for the purposes of your book? We know that is not the case, from a doctrinal standpoint. I think the answer to your original question "why celestials must forgive" is backwards in a way, in that celestials do forgive, because an individual who does not forgive is not celestial.
The way you speak about imperfect immortals and power and creations seems like you are patterning your uncharitable immortals after typical scifi/mythological characters rather than the reality as revealed by modern revelation. Is that true? It's fine if it is, I'm just trying to clarify.
One thing in your OP that I do agree with: "therefore the inability to forgive ultimately leads oneself to loneliness and isolation, in eternities..."
I think this could be exactly right. This could be why people in lower kingdoms may not live in family units (that's an assumption I'm not sure is true) -- because they are unable to forgive and isolate themselves.
bok: You're right, it only works with "celestial immortals". Admittedly I'm blending a story idea with a doctrinal one.
At first I thought solely of immortality. Then I thought, well, what can I give these immortals? Do they have any powers? But the moment you give an immortal an ability to affect another immortal, any power at all, it creates a sort of conundrum. Can another immortal interfere with any other immortal? I kept imagining an immortal who created a world, and then some other rival immortal coming along and kicking over his sandcastle.
Ultimately in order to enable an immortal the ability to create anything, without it being destroyed by a rival... anyhow... why did there have to be rivals?
Anyhow... it was mostly a thought experiment, coming from the perspective of one who hasn't yet mastered forgiveness, yet it seems a very reasonable expectation of a celestial being... I'm not there yet, though.
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
What if you end up with an immortal who "plays the system" and demands forgiveness but never really changes his/her behavior? Then that banishment idea you mentioned becomes important. Insincere repentance could be just as damaging to an immortal society as refusing to forgive.
I still think you're thinking very short-term, and not in terms of eternity. Cuz ultimately what goes around, comes around. Over time all such matters would become self-evident. Those who could not abide the celestial law would not by their very nature, be celestials... they'd be something less... right?
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
So who exactly is inflicting these injustices upon the celestials, so that they have a need to forgive? I mean, why not just a theoretical ability to forgive? Will celestials still be going through crap?
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
I suppose once a celestial is absolutely perfect it doesn't matter... but the character I have in mind would be a (group of?) mortal(s) moving in the direction of a celestial. Perhaps the celestials that live in perfect harmony must explain themselves to this particular group.
Anyone ever read the Great Divorce, by CS Lewis? Something similar, but not quite so wonky...
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
We read The Great Divorce in Bookclub a couple months ago. I love C.S. Lewis. I was surprised how many stellar, matriarchal giants of spirituality in my ward were like, "I didn't get that at ALL."
I don't find him wonky at all.
Seriously though, this is an interesting question. I've even heard people talking about forgiveness building the bridge that they themselves must actually pass over... or something like that. Sorta' gets my brain all fuzzy after a while.
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
I guess the aspects I thought were a little bizarre was the huge naked chick with the animals flocking to her... and the dude in the waterfall didn't make a lot of sense to me.
I would also have liked CS Lewis to have been more Mormon... and presented the "celestial" beings as eternally married... cuz that fascinates me. I can totally see how a lot of people wouldn't "get it", but I still think that one (I read four of his books within a month, The Great Divorce was the last, I also read, Mere Christianity, Screwtape Letters, and The Problem of Pain ) Though the whole idea for the story is very cool...
gotta get the door...
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
What I found particularly fascinating was the controlling woman with her ... was it her son? Or husband? Anyway... I can get really "sucked into" CS Lewis, if you know what I mean. I'm going to read some more of his. Which books did you particularly like? Care to give me a mini-review?
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
rayb, your description is reminding me more and more like the Organians on the original series Star Trek. Seen the episode?
Also, are you making a distinction between celestial beings and immortal beings? You can live forever without being particularly nice. Conversely, you could theoretically be a celestial person and still die. If you're going to make a parallel to Mormon doctrine, then immortals can live forever without being celestial (like in the telestial kingdom).
Is immortality in your story reserved for celestial beings? Does everyone live forever, and so the non-celestials are trying to attain celestiality?
The main character encounters immortal beings, he's not immortal, but he'd pass through it, at a time when the character has been betrayed by a close friend. The encounter is supposed to help him understand what might occur if he were an eternal being, and how ultimately one cannot enjoy any form of association with other intelligent beings unless one can forgive.
Coco: I really liked all of the books I've read of his, thus far... They're all very thoughtful. The Problem of Pain takes a bit of getting used to, the language is pretty deep. Some really cool speculations in that book. Mere Christianity had some of the most powerful and insightful sermons on Christianity, though I felt his description of the Trinity was the weakest part of the book. Screwtape's famous... one of my least faves, though... just cuz it got a little tedious near the end... Screwtape's personality is just the sort of intellectual elite type that I despise and can't bear listening to... no matter how smart he thinks he is... and I couldn't imagine putting my mind into his brain for too long... I don't know how CS did it. It's fun to read his comments about how difficult it was for him to write.
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
The Problem of Pain is one I haven't even heard of, I think.
I got waaay sucked into Screwtape - it was hard to STOP thinking like Satan, so I had to quit reading it. I think I'm tough enough to go back now. Ya'll will let me know, of course, if you read something *funny* in my postings.
So, is your book like paralleling the Pre- and then mortality?
__________________
Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Coco: I had the same type of experience with Screwtape, which was why I was glad to be done with it. Weird, huh? I guess one of the things I found wearying about the whole affair was that every simple anything was a tool for the devil. It made me very critical of myself and others as I started to think about pretty much anything could render you sinful. It was a very exhausting book, as a result... Then again that was sorta the point, I think... and it's an interesting phenomena, I suppose... I mean without grace, hope, and Christ... everything we do is pointless... and wicked. In that way, I suppose it's a remarkable piece of writing. Though the way it ends, with "salvation" being almost arbitrary (in the mind of Screwtape) I think it trivialized just how noble a human soul can be in enduring the crap devils throw at them...
My new book is a fantasy story about a boy who masters certain virtues and the magic tied to each, and in so doing saves a number of magical realms.
--Ray
__________________
I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
) Yet when you try to earn their trust, You can plead with them, admit you're wrong, apologize, whatever... try to make it up, and it's never quite enough. 
