A scenario

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

A scenario

nitasmile · Senior Member

Jen, based on your other posts, I think I can guess what you are talking about. I know you already did your best and that leader had no right to publicly humiliate and hurt you. I would tell the person I am doing my best w/all the other life committments. I might want to say anyone else is welcome to do that job.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Water pistols at dawn (or at the next meeting). And then make sure yours is a super soaker with ice cold water in it...

bwa-ha-ha!

Jen, just do the best you can. While you may report to her and have deliverables to her and others, the only one you have to answer to as to how well you have magnified and fulfilled the calling you accepted is Him who extended it. If the auxilliary leader feels someone else can really do it better, or that you are just not cutting the mustard, then she can certainly take that up with the bishop or stake president (whichever priesthood leader is over the calling) and they can ask The Lord about a release.

In the meantime, if this individual sustained you in a meeting, she is under covenant to do whatever they can to support you and sustain you in your calling. You could go over her head and ask the priesthood leader to kind of remind her of this.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Jen wrote:
During the meeting, you present what you've done to about 30 ward members. After the presentation, your leader announces to you, in front of all of these people, that it just isn't good enough and you'll have to do better.

Roper's reply:

"You know, that's what I thought, too. I mean, I did my best, but I know it's not perfect, and that was really stressing me out. So I asked the Lord. He assured me that it was acceptable and that he was pleased with the way I had used my talents in His service. So that's why I decided to present it."

alabamabelle · Senior Member

based on some past experiences similar to this in my own life with unpleasant people and circumstances, I would ask that sister to have a PRIVATE MEETING WITH YOU AND THE BISHOP.

explain (PRAYERFULLY) to the Bishop that you feel pressured by this person to go beyond what the LORD requires by an imperfect person. then I would ask that she explain the reason for her petty, childish and irresponsible behavior at the conclusion of your presentation. for her to do so was to publicly indicate that she DOES NOT SUSTAIN YOU in your calling and she should be brought to account for that in the presence of the Bishop.

although this may sound extreme, if this individual feels that she has impugnity for her past actions that were un-Christlike, she CAN AND WILL continue this behavior.

immaturity and insecurity knows no boundaries. some people use callings as a bully pulpit to build up their own agenda ahead of the feelings of other children of God. Sad, but true.

Dyany · Senior Member

Jen, I'm so sorry. I know exactly who you are talking about and I know just how harsh she can be. I have seen her treat her own children in exactly the same manner, so I don't know if you can do much about changing her at this point. HOWEVER, I also know that she is the type of person who can be harsh in person but will sing your praises behind your back, and that she has a great capacity to love even though she is harsh. So I'm thinking that the best thing for you to try to do at this point MAY be just to buck up and let it roll off your back, knowing you've done your best, and remember that she doesn't mean to be harsh. She's just a perfectionist and that's the way she treats people because she feels it's her duty.

DoubleD · Senior Member

yeah, what belle said.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Repeat after me:

"This is as good as it's going to get. If you have a better solution, you're welcome to have a go."

If you're feeling extra uncharitable next week, stop right when you get to a hard part in the middle of the real thing. "I just didn't feel I could play that part well enough, and I thought 'nothing' would be better than my struggling.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Sometimes too, you have to tell yourself you know that you are doing the best given your situation, etc. Example, yesterday I messed up at our ward Christamas dinner. I had signed up 2 weeks ago to make a cake, etc. Even when I signed up, I knew it would be hard to make this cake as I was working Fri and Sat, plus had a volunteer thing I was doing Fri night for something else. So I knew I would be busy and didn't know when I'd get the cake made. But I was going to try- then for various reasons, I didn't get it made the way they wanted- (it was a cake based on the Grinch who Stole Christmas and so was cake w/jello stuff inside). I ended up baking the cake in the church oven once I got there-- and so there was no time for the jello stuff to gel. Oh and instead of using the yellow cake I was given I had to use a white cake mix, as I poured too much water into the yellow cake mix!

But the people in charge were kind and understanding about this and make me feel good even though I felt bad and frustrated w/myself. They were kind and told me not to worry about it. Luckily there were lots of cakes on hand!

But suppose someone had made me feel bad. Then I would have made myself feel better by reminding me that I had tried to do things that really mattered- ie I left work at 4:15 (had hoped to leave between 3P-3:30Pm but one staff was sick so I had extra duties), got home by 5P, made the cake batter and picked up 4 of our activity day girls to take to the party (as for different reasons illness,e tc their parents couldn't go. ANd we got to the church just before 6P for the start of the activities. I would tell myself that even though I was too rushed to read the cake mix directions correctly and thus ruined the first attempt, at least I remembered to turn on my phone and check my cell phone messages and hear one girl who left me 7 messages to please give her a ride to the party...to me, that is what really mattered. ).

It didn't matter that I didn't make a perfect cake.

I am grateful I had kind ward members who made me feel good and provided dignity to me even though they didn't know all the reasons why I didn't get my cake made as scheduled.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Recently a man in our stake went to pick up his son from his mission. This man is a talented pianist. While on the stand and preparing to play the piece, he realized he had forgotten the last page of the music at home-- across an ocean!

He said he was able to "wing it", no one noticed!

Just know you are doing your best and feel good about all those who are happy and have felt the spirit in their hearts due to your talents. As one who can't play, we thank you and appreciate you!

And we all make mistakes, look at the example of Pres Hinckley. When Pres Monson almost forgot to have someone say an opening prayer in Gen Conf, he didn't make Pres Monson restart. Or that time Elder Haight forgot the name of the mustard seed in General Conf, Pres Hinckley didn't make him redo his talk!

I hope your leader will develop a better way of showing love and appreciation to you.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm sorry to hear you're frustrated with your calling, Jen. That's kinda how I feel about the job I do as a dad. I just know there are a dozen better ways to do things all the time. Sometimes people point it out, and it makes me feel pretty bad. Sometimes I wonder if God gave me these difficulties to help me grow or just to make me feel worthless. It just doesn't seem fair to my children that they should be stuck with a dad who could do that much better, but often fails to live up to his potential.

I suppose I could get defensive about it, or point out the failures in others who point out my failures, but tell you the truth, I just don't have it in me anymore. I just try the best I can, cuz in the end, I care about my kids, and I love being with them. I find joy in being their dad, even if... someday they may even hate me for it, but I take from the experience the lessons that I've learned, no matter the outcome. And I never stop hoping for the best.

--Ray

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

What is the calling?

Euphraise put it better than I would have, certainly more diplomatically. My initial reaction would have been to flip her the bird and tell her to kiss my .......... but since that is not appropriate in church, well, at all, Euphraise said it best. I don't play well with people like that.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

I am the choir accompanist. We have a director with ridiculous expectations. She has no problem stepping on feelings, she just apologizes later (and then does it again). I'm tired of it.

The volume and difficulty of music that she's had us do in the last 3 months or so is really out of hand. On top of that I'm on the activities committee, and we've had 4 huge activities in that amount of time. And I have a newish baby, and 2 other small children, and other life obligations like everyone else. . . I just don't have an hour a day with free hands to practice, like it would honestly take for what she wants.

There is a song that's been especially hard for me. She knows this. I've stressed and agonized over it. It's badly written by someone who never played the piano and it's just plain hard. I told her right before practice that I had put a lot of work and time into it and just couldn't seem to get a handle on it. So why she would choose to humiliate me like she did in front of the choir is beyond me. It's not the first time, but it might be the last.

I know I have to confront her and tell her somehow that if she wants to keep me around, this won't happen again. I'm just trying to figure out say it how Jesus would want me to say it. . . and not how I want to say it.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Also. . .Dyany I totally get what you're saying, and I appreciate it. She's been handled with kid gloves for a lot of years though, and gets a pass from everyone because it's just "how she is". Why would she try to change if everyone allows and even expects it from her? I don't know that I'm willing to be one of those people.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I kind of agree with Val and Euphrasie. Does this woman know how to play the piano? Or any musical instrument?
You might just politely tell her you do not have the time necessary to devote to master this piece of music. You have done your best in the amount of time given. You can tell her how you feel without getting upset. You can apologize that it may not meet her specifications, but you can remind her also that you warned her that it was difficult to begin with. What's she going to do anyhow if it isn't as good as she wants?

I play the violin and if a particular piece is hard to play and if you have already been working on it you probably aren't going to master it in a week. My mother played the piano and there were some pieces she worked on for months (and she was quite talented).

Cat got turned off from the choir in our ward because the choir director always seemed to choose music that was especially difficult for the men. Seeing as how most ward choirs don't have a great deal of time to devote to practice, sometimes choir directors need to understand that. If they don't well, there isn't a whole lot they can do about it (unless they want to drive people away).

dianoia · Senior Member

Jen, you just said what I was thinking.

I've got an extended family member who has behaved badly pretty her entire adult life, and she's gotten away with it - mostly because she's so aggressive in confrontation. A lot of people in the Church just avoid her completely rather than dealing with her. Her family either kid gloves her or lets it fester so long they end up yelling, and neither option provides a good opportunity for change.

My husband and I used to tolerate it because we felt sorry for her - she was lonely and didn't seem to realize it was because of her own choices. We finally came to the conclusion that we weren't being Christlike by letting her behave so badly when it came to our stewardship ie. our home and our kids.

We stumbled on what works for us: calm and firm. Don't get angry, but stand your ground.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Choir Director!?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHH!!! Well that explains it!!

You're being crucified by Musical Pharisees!!!

A universal plague in the church... You should hold daily practices til Sunday, Jen. Then you could hear 10000000 excuses as to why every member in the choir can't make it to practice this or that day... (unless I was in your choir, then I'd be there everyday... just to annoy you... :)

Oh I could go on and on... seeing as how I'm the tenor section in my ward choir...

I'm always surprised by people who choose not to sing because of some excuse like it's too amateurish, or one's ego wasn't stroked just the right way... etc... Every musician with even a scrap of talent wants to be pampered... blah, blah, blah...

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

That is immensely frustrating, Jen. I don't really know what to say. I was the choir accompanist for a looooong time. My skill is strong is this area, so I seldom needed to practice outside actual choir practices, being somewhat of a sightreading legend. Ahem... So your director MAJORLY BUGS ME, okay? This was the very problem in my ward while I was doing 99.9% of all music. NO ONE else wanted to play. Ever. They felt inadequate. *I* HATED IT!! No one was admitting they even COULD play. They knew how easy it was for me to sit down and play with no notice or anything and just let me do it. All of it. All the time. Well, finally, that is no longer my calling. Other people can actually play and it's just wonderful! They don't have to be perfect! They don't even have to be good! I just love being able to help MrCoco wrestle the three little ones in the pew during Sac. Mtg. for a change! I can't stand it when people get all hoity-toity over musical talent or lack of talent. We're all volunteers in the Church, remember?

(I'd be respoding along the line Val was thinking, to be honest. Glad I'm not in your ward.

)

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

There are far too many pre-madonna's in the church everywhere.
Well said, Coco. No one wants to be rude or mean back, but sometimes it's hard not to be!

dianoia · Senior Member

Speaking as another "sight-reading legend" (thankyew, thankyew very much), I'm annoyed at your director too.

That's a completely inappropriate way to treat your accompanist.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Like I said in my earlier post, what does she expect her to do? Master it in a week, when she hasn't already? Give me a break.
Just play the song Jen to the best of your ability and let it go at that. If the choir director doesn't like it, well there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Let her fret over it if she wants to, you don't need to. In this particular instance your best is good enough.

alabamabelle · Senior Member

hey, give her the "Schroeder" method on the music.

remember the scene from the peanuts movie where he tried it all to please lucy only to have her crab at him??? the ONE FINGER choir accompaniement to Jingle bells . . .!!

woo hoo

edited to indicate a musical finger not a 'bird' finger.

-- Edited by alabamabelle at 13:00, 2007-12-17

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Heck I'm a good sightreader too, and for most NORMAL songs I don't have to practice a ton outside of choir. But you should see the things she picks! We've had 3 or 4 songs in the last month that have required at least a measure of spot-practicing like crazy and polishing at home. This one is especially awful. I'd rather play DeBussy or Handel. :p

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Church choir music should not require a ton of outside of practice. IMHO.

Which is why I asked if this person plays piano or any other instrument. Unless a person does, they haven't got a clue.

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 13:06, 2007-12-17

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

She does play piano. She teaches, or used to. When she said what she did, I tried to diffuse it (and diffuse my reaction) by jokingly saying, "I'll be happy to lead it if you want to come over here and play it." She said she hadn't practiced it so she doesn't know it. :p

Organist · Senior Member

"If it didn't sound good to you, you weren't listening with the Spirit."

I think there is enormous truth in this bit of humor.

What is tough about musical snobs is that they acknowledge that they are snobs, and even brag about it with each other. I tend to deal with these situations early on. Inform the conductor that the music is either way too hard or way too easy and will drive people away from choir.

I cannot count the number of times as an accompaniest that I simply wanted to never come back to choir again, not because of rude comments by the conductor, but rather because I felt they were completely incompetent. (It has been years since I have really enjoyed choir). I just kept telling myself that they were called by revelation and there is more than one way to do something (though my way is usually best). I also tell myself that I contribute to choir for my own reasons, not for the conductor or the other members.

My own reasons are that I need to share my talents in opportunities that arise, that I shouldn't hold back for personal or selfish or hurt or offended reasons. I am playing for God, He is in the audience, and He listens to my offering, not my polishing (though I put in effort to make those coincide).

-- Edited by Organist at 13:25, 2007-12-17

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

When was the last time a ward ever just had an activity where singing was just for fun?

For the love of singing... doesn't matter how good you are or aren't... doesn't matter if you've got professionally trained / educated musicians in the ward or not... Karaoke night as a ward activity? Can be pretty fun...

Singing (and music) in the Church should never be centered on "perfection" and impressing people by the difficulty of the piece.

Music at Church should be all about "For my soul delighteth in the song of the heart; yea, the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me, and it shall be answered with a blessing upon their heads" when talking about sacred music. It is the inviting of and feeling of the Spirit for all who hear and participate which is most important... not about showcasing any one person's years of college training and career with the local symphony / opera / theatre company...

IMHO

(Oh, and Jen, since it is about ward choir, I must insist on the squirt gun option being a truely viable solution.

)

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

pre-madonnas... instead of primadonna... hahahaha! That's so true... how many folk want to break into show business through singing in church... and be the next Madonna. Hahahaha...

Gah! Wait... so Jen's the accompaniast (for a second I thought you were director)? That's even more thankless! ;)

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 14:38, 2007-12-17

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

She sounds like one of the "easily offended" types and so no one wants to have it on their conscience of someone becoming offended and leaving. No reason to put up with that crap, she has gotten away with it and will continue to do so.

The D&C says that if there is an issue with someone, take them aside and be reconciled. Maybe along the lines of "This is a difficult piece, I don't have the time. If you really want to do this piece, you may need someone else for this particular piece. I also would appreciate it if you would not snap it me, it bothers me and I do not find it appropriate."

Sometimes, people let their position go to their head, or treat you like an underling at work. That dog don't hunt at church. I am a volunteer in a position, not your whipping boy, pull that and you can figure it out all on your own. We are all equal in the church, one not above the other.

As for the easily offended, if it is not really an offense, they need to grow up. One bishop I knew had a problem with a RS President who kept telling him how things should be, and he kept telling her politely how it was. Finally, he had a meeting with her and explained it goes from God to the prophet to apostles, to regionals, to stake presidents, to bishops, and you are not in that line, enough. Guess it worked. Sometimes shock therapy is needed.

Dyany · Senior Member

Jen, I agree then, something should be said, but it might work best coming from the bishop. I dunno. I could help come and talk to her if you want. I just have seen the way she treats her daughter and I am appalled, but I have never had the guts to speak up to her myself. So talk to the bishop, or directly to her, but try to do so kindly, because I KNOW she doesn't mean to offend. She just does. Over and over and over.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I imagine, that's why God gives us callings... to see how we handle them. ;)

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

Delegate and then when it isn't up to her standards stress that you followed the Lord's pattern as set forth in the temple. Return and report!

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Dyany wrote:

Jen, I agree then, something should be said, but it might work best coming from the bishop. I dunno. I could help come and talk to her if you want. I just have seen the way she treats her daughter and I am appalled, but I have never had the guts to speak up to her myself. So talk to the bishop, or directly to her, but try to do so kindly, because I KNOW she doesn't mean to offend. She just does. Over and over and over.

I don't know that she doesn't mean to. She told my friend after choir that she knew she hurt my feelings and she felt bad. Then today she called while I was out and left a message. Didn't say a darn thing about yesterday, but asked me to do something else.

I really think she just knows it's easier to apologize than to do the nice/right thing in the moment. Except she didn't even apologize this time.

Organist · Senior Member

For the love of singing... doesn't matter how good you are or aren't... doesn't matter if you've got professionally trained / educated musicians in the ward or not... Karaoke night as a ward activity? Can be pretty fun...

Singing (and music) in the Church should never be centered on "perfection" and impressing people by the difficulty of the piece.

Music at Church should be all about "For my soul delighteth in the song of the heart; yea, the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me, and it shall be answered with a blessing upon their heads" when talking about sacred music. It is the inviting of and feeling of the Spirit for all who hear and participate which is most important... not about showcasing any one person's years of college training and career with the local symphony / opera / theatre company...I agree with most of that, except for one possible scenario which I'll describe with an analogy. Have you ever played volleyball with people who just hit the ball as hard as they can with a fist, and it usually goes flying off in the wrong direction? That game is no fun. Likewise, I have been in choirs with people who swing wildly with their voices, but make no attempt to improve.

I'll admit, the most common excuse I hear from people when recruiting for choir is, "You don't want me in your choir, I'm terrible." I am positive that the number of people who are truly terrible is much less than is reported to me.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Yeah, there are ways of keeping the ones who have a better chance of finding a snowball in hell than singing on key involved in a singing activity instead of letting them do the vocal equivalent of an errant volleyball serve... I think that if the choir director really is good, he or she will act more like a coach in helping the weaker (and more barbarian) voices develop instead of simply playing the part of Arthur Fiedler.

Of course, I'm an expert in this considering I haven't sung in the ward choir for how many years now?

But, yeah, know what you mean... Poncho's dad is kind of vocally like what you describe, but he is nevertheless enthusiastic about singing. There was one EQ president I served with where the poor man probably had about as much talent to sing as Heber J. Grant initially... it was almost painful to hear him singing, but then it was always nice to know that he didn't let that get in the way of singing, and I'm sure to The Lord it sounded glorious...

dianoia · Senior Member

Just to offer a slightly dissenting voice here on the topic of standards of music in church:

I've also had experiences with "anti-madonnas". People who think choir should just be a sing-along, and don't want to get better, or learn something new, or have a choir director who's "so picky she wants us to open up our mouths and enunciate."

(And my personal pet peeve, sopranos who whine anytime they're not singing the melody - "it's too haaard". C'mon, ladies, the rest of us sing harmony all the time, it wouldn't kill you to challenge yourself a bit.)

The whole "let's not make anyone feel bad" thing has gotten to the point where talented people are accused of showing off if they share their gifts. That's not always the case.

It's takes character to be good at something and not be arrogant because of it. But it also takes character to be genuinely happy for someone who's better than you, to listen with appreciation and not feel all intimidated.

Maybe I'm a music snob, but I feel the Spirit stronger when a piece is done competently. And I'm not talking about difficult music, just hymns where the high notes are in tune.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I'm competent when it comes to music. I rec'd a music scholarship to the Y which I turned down because the academic one was better. I've played for ward choirs and been organist since the age of 16. I was primary pianist when I was IN primary.

That being said, I think musical ability has very little to do with feeling the Spirit yourself or whether others feel the Spirit or no. But that's just me. If a group of people get together and have fun and enjoy each others' company and smile and enjoy singing praises to the Lord and are non-judgmental I could really care less what they sound like.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Well I knew this had to be confronted, and I took the way of the chicken. I wrote a note, kindly but firmly letting her know how her actions made me feel, and that I was doing my best and trying to serve the Lord. I also told her I'd like more input on what we do, because my family will come first and I want to make sure I can do it well with the time we have. And I told her that if she didn't think I could meet her expectations, we could talk to the bishop about finding as assistant or a replacement for me.

That was 2 days ago (I dropped it off at her house), and she hasn't made any effort to contact me to apologize or work it out or yell at me or anything. :(

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

Maybe she needs a note that says, "Here's yer Sign!"

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

The way of the chicken has permenantly placed you in an inferior position. She has no desire to gain your respect. You're grovelling, for lack of a better term. You tiptoe around her like she has some power to make your life hell. Just tell her what you're thinking for crying out loud. She walks on you because she can.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

But what do you REALLY think?

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

(I know, I know. . . totally wimped out.)

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

I say challenge her to a cage death match and see if she's man enough to show up!

alabamabelle · Senior Member

she's a man?!?!?

dang, and I thought the histrionics in our ward were bad!

seriously, sometimes EVEN when what you have to say would be unpleasant to the recipient, the message has to be delivered.

in this case, the delivery is overdue.

we tend to believe in the Church that we can't tell someone they are being a jerk without being un-Christlike. While it is possible to use tact and diplomacy to tell someone that they are walking all over you, it is also neccessary so that you don't become so frustrated and angry on the inside that it affects your ability to perform your calling. I know, because I have been there.

when they find out that the kitten they cornered and repeatedly picked on is in reality a very patient mountain lion, it will make them think twice about treating you that way again.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

roar. :)

Duke of Mirth · Profuse Pontificator

Sounded like "meow" to me. Let's try that again Jen!

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

RoaR?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

It's like this. My 11 yo daughter was standing in "line" at Wal-Mart last night, just as a new line was opening, waving to me to come over there (I was 8 feet away in the next line). As I was turning the cart to head over there, a punky girl rammed her way right in front of my daughter. I bumped her cart with mine and said, "Oh, you can go ahead." She said, in her immature generation Next valley-girl voice, "Oh, serry." ("sorry") I said, with a bit more volume, "No yer NOT!" Anyway, I had a talk with my daughter (so punk could hear as well) how some people feel that a flippant little "Sorry" will excuse any kind of bad or rude behavior they feel like dishing out and how they are not only rude but LIARS because they aren't sorry in the least. Yeah, if I'da pushed her cart right out the other end of the line, past the checker, then she would've been sorry. furious

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

alabamabelle wrote:

she's a man?!?!?

MRS. PEACOCK IS A MAN?!?!?!?!?!?

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Weird. We just watched Clue like, 5 minutes ago.

So I just realized I never updated this. I agonized that whole week and worried about what she would say to me on Sunday. She didn't say anything during the practice before church. After Sac, meeting she pulled me into a room and apologized, and said I was right (knock me over with a feather!). As for the hard song, I asked for help and someone else played it for me. It worked out. I don't know if it will stick, but so far, so good.