One of the political threads got me curious. I've never read anything by Cleon Skousen, but the general feel I get from friends and family is that occaionally he's a little speculative or just plain "out there."
I attended a Relief Society class in my parents' ward once, where one sister said some really strange things about why Cain chose evil. Later my mom just sighed and said, "Yeah, she reads Skousen."
What exactly do his writings say? Do you agree or disagree with his conclusions?
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They might not look it, but bunnies can really take care of themselves.
Depending on HOW you ask, WHEN you ask and WHO you ask you may get dozens of different opinions on this topic... Since it appears that you are looking for opinions, and because you are my friend... and I know you will take this with the GRAM of salt you SHOULD... I will tell you what "I" think...
I've read his stuff from time to time, hubby is a questioner and read most of his stuff years before he joined the church... (during his UofU years...) I've always looked at his writings as opinion, pure and simple... Like Elder McConkie he's been plenty controversial... but then Daniel Ludlow written some pretty strange things too... IMO... Some of what I have read IS really "out there", and I don't see from my experience any continuity with doctrine... Some of it makes sense to me on a personal level because of MY personal experience... not because of doctrine, it's just something that feel okay... I don't worry too much about proving it aligns with every part of doctrine. We don't have ALL the answers, even when it comes to doctrine... so there you have it... MY opinions
I don't give Skousen more credence then say a dozen of the profs I had in college... They don't (as has been pointed out,) speak for the Lord, as a prophet would. In my opinion you also have to remember that all "scholars" write during their era of technology and understanding... that colored perceptions, just as our time colors ours.
I read an essay he wrote about the atonement. It was deep, and I looked up all his scripture references and pondered them myself. My conclusion was that Skousen had really hit on something amazing that I'd overlooked in my own studies. He addressed the question, "how come the Savior had to suffer so much physically? Why couldn't he have died painlessly?" His thoughts on the topic (which are too deep for me to summarize because I'm not that deep) really gave me another angle to appreciate the atonement.
I haven't read any of his other writings, though.
ETA: You know, if I did try to summarize his point for a comment (or even an entire lesson) in SS, it would sound like he was "out there". But after spending several hours on his idea, it wasn't "out there" anymore. Some ideas are not appropriately condensed into sound bites.
I'm not saying that all of his writings are really true if you'd just take enough time to ponder them - like I said, I've only read the one essay. But I found lots of value in it even though trying to summarize it in SS would make it sound like Skousen has a weird gospel hobby.
Some of what Cleon Skousen wrote on Last Days and Secret Combinations etc was done at the direction (and I suspect under the diretion) of Ezra Taft Benson. That speaks for itself.
Some of his kids have gone out on some wild limbs with thier own ideas.
I've read most of his stuff, and attended a few lectures when they came my way. I like what he wrote and said. IMNO, he forgot more about the Gospel than I'll ever know.
I've enjoyed everything I've read of his. I agree with Janey in that sometimes you need to spend more than a minute or two to really understand what someone is trying to say.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Like I said, I read the entire "1st Thousand years"
Perhaps I'm partial but I'll stick with the writings of Apostles and Prophets. Men who REALLY know.
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
I try not to use too many "writers" to prove my point on any topic... especially religion, course I don't debate religion at all because: To argue or debate over sacred things usually generates much more heat than light. President Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, The Peaceable Followers of Christ, Ensign, Apr. 1998, 65..
There are lots and lots of authors out there that I read... sometimes once, sometimes twice, sometimes A LOT... I would say that Skousen's writings are somewhere in the middle for me... because despite them being controversial, they are not anti, or negative to my way of thinking... they are oft times unusual and because he is a scholar some people may put his opinion on a higher pedestal than is possibly wise, I suppose... I personally enjoy Nibley more than Skousen, do not care for Ludlow's conclusions on several doctrinal points... I really like Allen with regards to Church History. I like what Bushman and Madsen write... And one of my favorite LDS authors of the last 15 years regarding the Savior is Stephen Robinson. These are all LDS "scholars"... to my knowledge no one ever claimed that their writings were the final word of the Lord on the topics they write about... including themselves.
Di, in answer to your question... Skousen writes about more controversial and confusing doctrinal points than most, I think. He spent many years writing about the Holy Land and what the life of the Savior might have been like... another favorite topic of his was the US Constitution. I agree with many of his written statements about the Constitution. I find some of his thoughts regarding the base of Christianity interesting, but those writings are not the same as firm "truth". His writings are in the "persuasive" form of prose, so I think he comes off as more "authoritative" in some people's minds, perhaps... but nothing I have ever read suggests that he thought his works should be taken without question. In fact just the opposite... his approach always seemed to me to be that he encouraged his students to question what we "think" we know... not about those things we understand to have been taught ARE absolute truths (and example of truth would be that the Father and Son are two separate beings)... but he does encourages members to question our assumptions on things like: the "traditions" of the Holy Land... the roll of the Constitution in the founding of the church... Because of the scope that his writings focused on... and the opinions had, he has OFTEN been quoted by those that have specific agendas, and I think sometimes quoted out of context... but then so have dozens of other scholars I have read. It's quite possible you would find his writings interesting.
In the same vein of why someone would want to consider the background of all scholarly works... I read a couple things that Pres. Eyring wrote when he was President of "Ricks College"... but I read them not that long ago... they are things that hubby really likes his take on... personally I found the topics to be somewhat unusual and in fact controversial... But he didn't claim some kind of special understanding, beyond study and interest in those topics for which there is some doubt as to what the "truth" really is... so I understand that he was writing about his opinion of those topics, and at that time he was not writing as an apostle... I have noticed that since he became an apostle... he (like many others who become more circumspect after being call as a Special Witness...) writes and speaks today about truths, not controversies... he leaves the controversial topics to those that are not held to the same level of authority... Since Bro Skousen didn't claim to be assigning doctrinal status to his own writings, I don't have a problem reading them, per se... however I believe we always need to ask for ourselves if what we are reading offends our spirits... If it offends the spirit than we should not give it any credence, and in fact should avoid it... I don't find Bro Skousen's writings to be of that nature. I DO find some of the topics that are presented using Bro. Skousen's writings to prove their point (i.e. some of the current political discussions out there...) to be offensive to my spirit, because they are focusing on "contention"... which is not conducive to the Spirit...
I don't think it's a good idea to think that only Apostles/Prophets "really know." The spirit of prophecy/revelation is not exclusive to certain callings. And it's obvious that the Apostles/Prophets themselves do not follow this school of thought. They read and quote extensively from even non-LDS authors.
We should concentrate on our own power of discernment so we will not be deceived.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
One thing I like about reading non-prophet/apostle writings is that I can disagree with them and ask hard questions without feeling like I'm questioning the Lord's anointed.
One thing I like about reading non-prophet/apostle writings is that I can disagree with them and ask hard questions without feeling like I'm questioning the Lord's anointed.
...nor do I have to feel guilty if I don't read, study, and ponder the writings...
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Oooh, Janey. That is one excellent point. You carve us like the Christmas beast with your razor-sharp knack for slapping us in the face with THE POINT.
Mothering is the highest of all callings, of course. But WOW I am excited for you to get back in the courtroom, girl!
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Cat- Actually you have been commanded to read, study and ponder. Also to "seek," "ask" and "knock." Also to go after the best books (that includes a variety of subjects). So yeah, a little more guilt would be in order, I think.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
I love to learn more about the world, its history, its peoples and cultures. I love zoology, anatomy, social anthropology, biography and literature. The Spirit does not limit itself to the works of gospel scholars, and my reverence for my Heavenly Father, His works and His children has increased because of my reading choices.
It's my opinion that there are a great many "best books" out there. And despite the fact I am a very fast and prolific reader, I will never do more than skim all that is available.
It is part of my nature to read, study and ponder, to thirst after knowledge and the best books. I don't feel guilty because I haven't read Skousen.
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They might not look it, but bunnies can really take care of themselves.
Cat- Actually you have been commanded to read, study and ponder. Also to "seek," "ask" and "knock." Also to go after the best books (that includes a variety of subjects). So yeah, a little more guilt would be in order, I think.
Who is to say that his writings constitute "best books"? Sounds like to me that is a fairly subjective call on a number of LDS scholars and academics. Otherwise, each would be standard fair for BYU and CES religion and institute classes, don't ya think?
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
If people are or have been professors at the Y, maybe they have something decent to say...? (I'm only referring specifically here to Skousen and Nibley.)
But yes, I suppose anyone can put any type of personal subjective whacked-out spin they want on what "best books" could possibly mean. People generally follow the subjects that interest them or are enjoyable in some way.
Yay for reading!
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
One of the reasons my wife doesn't like the Y is that (she says) many students go there and place as much trust in their professors as they would the prophet--no matter what they're taught. You start the class with a prayer so everything you learn there has to be the unquestionable truth, right? +When you go to a "gentile school" (like Utah State University) you know your professors are full of crap... and you learn quickly to put what they say through a number of life-filters... Or at least your parents warn you of it... and you can kinda choose.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Start class with prayer? I don't ever recall that. Trusting professors? In an anthropology class, my prof continually discussed human evolution. I finally asked how Adam and Eve fitted in to all of this, the rest of the class also began questioning then. The prof got really annoyed at me, then finally said that Adam and Eve didn't matter. Kind of shocked everyone.
As to reading, well, I have never read any of Skousen's works, I have read some of Nibley's. I don't know that I have agreed with all of Nibley's info, but I do like having additional avenues of thought to explore, new ideas to consider and frankly, I think that is how they should be approached. Or with the D&C approach to the Apocrypha, read with the Spirit to get to the truth. I like reading the Apocrypha and other such writings.
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Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever
I think I had more classes at Ohio State that started with prayer than I did at BYU...
And, considering that I only had to take like 3 religion classes at BYU (I took a number or Instititute classes after my mission that BYU used to waive most of my religion requirements), I ain't just whistlin' Dixie... Aside from the Institute classes I took while picking up classes at Ohio State, I don't recall a public prayer being proferred or offered in any class other than the two Book of Mormon classes I took at BYU.
As to students trusting every word that proceeded forth from the mouth of the professor as truth, well, it was pretty equal between the two schools. I think sometimes some folks just get so enamored with the idea of "learning" and "critical thinking" that they forget to actually flip those switches on, or they flip them on at the wrong time or for the wrong thing.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
good point Coco... one of these days I am going to grow up to become someone that can say really good things in few words like you...
I am excited for you to get back in the courtroom, girl!
