First, this is a genuine question i have had for about 17 years now.
Why, (and I admit this probably happens in Utah more than anywhere else), but, why do people who have no activity in the church whatsoever....living together, drinkers and partyers, no home teachers, thanks anyway, what have you, with no desire at all to become active...
...baptize their kids?
Do they believe in the true church and in the saving nature of baptism but can't bring themselves to live the gospel?
Are they just going that route "in case" it's all true?
Is it the social aspect? (especially in Utah) Everyone does it, they have a big celebration, etc.
I have seen it over and over again. It befuddles me.
What think ye?
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"My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
This is just my opinion but I think some people do it just because "it is the the thing to do." Just like Catholics who are not active catholics baptize/christen their kids when they're babies.
It just kind of expected I think. It doesn't necessarily mean they believe in what it represents or the sacredness of the ordinance. I think if they truly believed in what having your child baptised meant they would have their children actively attend church, even if they aren't active themselves.
My chairside grew up semi active... Her mother grew up slightly more active. Her grandmother was very active...served a mission and now works int he Temple.
My chairside had me baptize both of her kids. When #2 was getting ready to turn 8 and grandma was putting pressure on her... "When is your son getting baptized?"... I finally told her, I wouldn't do it unless she attended Church with both kids... So she attends for about 3 months. I baptize the son and they go for another 2 weeks and quit.
Makes me ill. They just don't get it. ....................................................................................................
O my, look how many posts I have.
-- Edited by Mahonri at 21:34, 2007-12-10
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
The lady we're working with the missionaries with has two kids who really want to be baptized. She doesn't think she's good enough for our church, but she "doesn't want to deny her children the chance to go to church."
Of course this lady's never been mormon, or had anything to do with the church other than knowing my wife and I... and another LDS couple.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
Chairside=My dental assistant... I also have a front office/receptionist who sometimes takes x-rays and assists me "chairside".
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
I couldn't answer you on that, Ros. Some of it could be familial "pressure" if relatives are active. Some of it could be the fact that they know or believe it should be done for one reason or another. Others may do it simply so that they can be an official part of the "culture".
Same questions I asked myself about folks who would move back east from Utah and you never saw them at Church, their kids rarely if ever showed up at primary or mutual, they were big into the worldly social stuff at school, but pretty much totally inactive... but as soon as they go back to Utah for vacation or move back, everyone there thinks they were core members of the ward they were in back east. We had a family that lived a couple blocks away from us like that. A boy in my grade and an older sister. They came out to church, if we were lucky, once a year. At school, you wouldn't know they were LDS in comparison to the handful of other LDS kids at my high school, they did not interact with us at all... and yet, I found out later that when this family moved back to Utah after I and the son graduated from high school, the daughter seemed to get religion and then went on a mission.
I guess that is or was a good thing, not that it probably did anything to bring any of the rest of the family into activity, but I doubt that by today's standards she would have been permitted to serve, having been inactive through all her teen years.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
As a child of inactive parents, but of active extended family on my dad's side (mom's side is not members), I was baptized at age 8 only having gone to church ocassionally with my grandparents. I did attend Primary off and on for 3 yrs (4th grade to 6th grade, this was when Primary was mid week) and i only attended Mutual maybe a yr in 7th grade. I was then pretty much inactive till 17 and have been active since, married in the temple and have served in numerous callings. All of my "spiritual" training came from my grandparents or aunt (dad's older sis) and uncle (aunt's dh). I grew up close to my cousins. I knew the Book of Mormon was true before i ever read it. I used to love to sit and listen to my grandparents talk about our pioneer ancestors and how they all knew the Prophet Joseph Smith. I knew my grandparents had a testimony.
So, there are some of us out there that getting baptized was not the beginning, but just another step. Do not discount the influence of the extended family on that child getting baptized, it may be the lifeline that child will need later in life.
Now, my sister and brother were also baptized at 8, but both have never been active.
as soon as they go back to Utah for vacation or move back, everyone there thinks they were core members of the ward they were in back east
That's interesting you should say that, Cat. It used to be the opposite in the small branch I grew up in. We'd have people move here from Southern Alberta (our version of rural Utah), who had been mediocre at best in their church activity while living there, and once they were here totally catch the fire of the gospel.
It seemed to work out that way because they were so desperately needed - everyone was excited when someone new was moving in, they were extended callings before they even got to church, and there was never any "Oh, are you a visitor?" after they'd lived in the branch for six months.
It'd drive my parents nuts that people would find their love for the Gospel in our District, but as soon as they retired... back to Southern Alberta.
Maybe one of the differences between our situations is that the North doesn't have the trappings of sophistication that the East has. No ivy league schools, old money or big business - unless you count oil and gas.
ETA: Ros, that's a good question, and I have no answer. I've not seen the phenomenon very often, but it's strange to me as well.
-- Edited by dianoia at 09:25, 2007-12-11
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They might not look it, but bunnies can really take care of themselves.
dianoia, I have seen some of what I describe in our current ward as well. It is not too frequent, but it happens. Usually, if a family or individual is active "in heart", they will be more or less active wherever they are geographically in the Church.
As sad as it seems, I think there are just some folks who take the opportunity of moving back to the "mission field" for a job or school as an opportunity to take a vacation from involvement in the Church without having any one around that they feel obligated to answer to (family and other people who know them). Some people probably move out west and drift away for a similar reason... getting lost in the crowd.
For me and Poncho personally, the time in our life that we were the least active was when we lived in Utah. Strange, huh! Why? Well, it boiled down to not that we didn't have strong testimonies, but because: 1. we had preconcieved notions of how people should treat each other... we expected folks to behave as kindly and lovingly in daily life as we had seen growing up in our wards back in the "mission field". While there were notable exceptions, the bulk of the members of the church we encountered had a lot of work to do before they would have lived up to those preconceptions (in other words, we had some spiritual maturing we had to do ourselves to deal with the fact saints in high concentration areas are not any more perfect than saints elsewhere); 2. we were absolute "foreigners" to the culture, and Utah culture is not the most open to those not from there; and 3. we felt lost in the crowd, and aside from just a couple good acquaintances, honestly felt invisible and uncared for... and unneeded. I even had extended family in the region, but rarely saw or talked with them... When we moved back east after I finished my Bachelors, a former member of the Stake Presidency who had been one of my mentors during my teen years said in response to my "confession" of not having been 100% active the last couple years and feeling like sometimes I was just going through the motions while out west "Well, Cat, now you are back here where you are loved and where people know who you are and what you are capable of AND will expect it out of you!"
Aside from the support we received from our parents and families in our strong desire to get back to "Zion", that was perhaps one of the most loving things anyone had ever said to me in nearly three years. About 3 1/2 years ago, when we were visiting our old ward on a Fast and Testimony Sunday after this fine man and his wife had just returned from serving as a Mission President and wife thereof, I took the opportunity to stand and bear my testimony to those in that ward using those same words he told me many years earlier as the theme, encouraging the youth to follow the good and righteous examples in their parents and leaders in this ward. That they were men and women of God and ultimately, it didn't matter where you ended up, we all still had the obligation to remember that there are those who love us and know what we are capable of and expect it out of us, and ultimately that would be the Savior.
Long story short, maybe some people just forget who they are, know that it (baptism for their kids) is important, but they themselves are confused and "lost" because of whatever crisis or decision they encountered earlier.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Just for some more anecdotal evidence, I have known a couple families that fit this description. The ones I know really did have an idea deep down that either the Church was true or at least an important influence for their children. They just didn't feel capable of living it themselves.
As a hometeacher to an innactive family, should I try to get unbaptized children baptized, if the family is innactive? I'm curious what you think...
I've also been instructed at times by the bishop to ask innactive families if we can bless their babies and children so they can get on the records of the church.
I just figured it was part of a hometeacher's job, to try to help every member of the family progress in the walk of covenants and keeping them.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
We used to see this a lot in our ward back in the 80s and 90s but not so much anymore. I think many of those parents actually thought they were saving their children by getting them baptized and never bringing them back to church. We have several on the rolls today who are technically members but who have never been to church. I had one fellow who I tried to home teach for months and finally went off on me claiming he was never a member of our church and didn't know why I was always stopping by leaving notes on his door and messages on his answering machine. Well looking at his records he had never been ordained to the priesthood so most likely he was baptized as a child but never actually went. If I was baptized at 8 or 9 but never went to church much before or after that I might not remember if I was a member either.
We often have people moving in and out of the ward due to the military base and get records in for these guys and gals. Some grandparent thinks the ward will be able to save them so they have their records shipped over. Then we send out the hometeachers and they want nothing to do with the church, know nothing about it, and could we please leave them alone.
We had one lady show up to church one time and lambast the brothers and sisters for not doing X,Y, and Z when her daughter had a baby. Well her daughter had never come to church and never been home. Her husband was deployed and she was staying with relatives out of the area. Any contacts made by the bretheren were completely useless because no one was home. Phone calls were never returned and when she did return and her husband came back right before the birth, no one had a clue she was pregnant. She had no plans of being active in the church before or after the birth of the child and could care less but the busy body mother verbally brow beat us for not being there for her daughter. Hello? We aren't mind readers and if people don't really want us around how are we supposed to know your daughter was even pregenant. The Bishop was a much better man than I was and apologized and tried to smooth it over. Subsequent contacts went nowhere and she never did come to church or care but I think she felt she had to put on the show for mom when mom asked where the relief society was?
Being in the same ward all my life I still remember the names of kids on the primary roles that never came being read year, after year, and now still see many of these same names on the rolls. Actually had two guys I knew in highschool and one in college that had their names on the rolls but knew almost nothing about the church other than what any other non member off the street would know. They didn't care one iota about the church and didn't have any desire to go or learn more. Baptized with no real reason why in my opinion.
Then there was the lady who did decide to come to church and swore up and down that she had been baptized as a child. No records anywhere for her but after 20 or more years of actually never coming who knows what church she "remembered" being baptized into. So she got baptized again.
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Jason (Formerly salesortonscom)
As I walk through this earth, nothing can stop, the Duke of Mirth!
We see this all of the time in Alabama. It's a safety valve mindset. There are people who ACTIVELY persecute or preach against the church but secretly retain their membership and refuse to let go of it unless they are ex'ed.
Sadly, they honestly believe if they keep holding onto it 'just in case the gospel is true' that it will be enough to 'save them' in the end. They want their kids to be members but then they don't bring them or attend themselves. We call it the gospel of osmosis.
y'all ain't had no fun at all until you've gone down into the 'holler' and been shot at while trying to do Visiting/Home teaching.
My mom's family was totally inactive, but all the kids were baptized at 8. In their case, it was grandpa who didn't want anything to do with Church, but grandma would have gone to church if she could have. She quit church to keep the peace. So baptizing the kids, and then remaining inactive, was a compromise for them. That was two generations ago, but maybe there are some of these families where one spouse likes Church, but not enough to cause a rift with the other one.
Eventually, three out of four of them became active as adults. And grandpa gave permission for grandma's temple work to be done after she died, which was a major softening on his part.
I would think in Utah, where there could be a pretty fundamental support system for children of nonactive families, that allowing them to be baptised (if they so desired) would also enable them to remain active more easily than in a branch where there's insufficient priesthood and sister leadership to help any "spare" children who desire it.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I think too what happens is that Sunday for these less active families is fun day. They go ride ATVs or do other super fun outings on that day now. I can't imagine if I was in the 8-18 age range asking to be dropped off or picked up for church while the rest of the family went to have fun. I know there have been kids out there who were strong enough to set that sort of example but that would be few and far between.
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Jason (Formerly salesortonscom)
As I walk through this earth, nothing can stop, the Duke of Mirth!
Well, I was born and raised in So CA and my church support growing up was my extended family, not the wards we lived in. If anything, I was judged more harshly by the members because my parents weren't active, not one hand of fellowship or encouragement from any leaders, especially when I hit Mutual age. The only people that kept me connected to the church were my grandparents, aunts, uncle and my cousins. I spent a lot of weekends at either my grandparents' home, before they moved back to Provo when I was a teen, or at my aunt and uncle's house and I hung out with my cousins. I started going to YA dances at 15 because the 2 female cousins I hung out with were 3 and 4 years older than me.
My parents never said I couldn't go to church, they even drove me, dropped me off and would come back and get me when i wanted to go to our "home' ward. I quit going at about 12 or 13 because there just was no "helping" hand for me when I was there by myself. I returned to full activity at 17 just before i turned 18 and by then i didn't need any hand holding by leaders because I had developed my testimony away at school around other YAs. College branches are great for a fresh start.
Because of my paradigm I guess I view members who are less active wanting to baptize their kids a good thing. It is up to the leaders and teachers over these kids to somehow connect with them and a simple monthly note is the best.
How many LDS are circumsized or have their children circumsized 'just in case' Peter and Paul were wrong and that is still part of the covenant?
How many have made sure they meet the qualifications for the Born Agains and other religious sects 'just in case'?
Remember the little weasly guy on "The Mummy" who had a whole lot of religious medalliions and would say prayers to all the different religious faiths just in case? His Jewish prayer actually saved his life.
As a hometeacher to an innactive family, should I try to get unbaptized children baptized, if the family is innactive?
--Ray
No.
I'm not complaining about inactive baptisms. In fact, just the opposite. Baptism is a saving ordinance, absolutely neccesary. I think we should baptize anyone who lets us!! And getting on the records of the church is fantastic. They will always be watched over, they will be on the lists, people will contact them, think about them, whatever. It's all good.
I'm just curious about what is going on in thier brains.
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"My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
My brother came up with a great solution to increasing # of baptisms while serving his mission in a European nation... squirt guns while doing street contacting or door to door... He figured that if we could only modify the doctrines of it having to be baptism by immersion and the person baptized had to be desiring baptism, it would kill two birds with one stone... Increase the number of baptisms and bring us closer to the Catholic and Protestant traditions.
{no, he didn't actually support or encourage this... it was a joke he and a companion came up with once when discouraged / frustrated}
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
I once taught a man from Africa on my mission in Italy who looked at all the churches and asked them what Heaven was to each of them. He decided to join our church because we had the best rewards... our definition of eternal life most appealed to him... (that of becoming like our Heavenly Father) :)
Not a conventional reason to join a church, I suppose, but we didn't argue with him.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
That's interesting Ray. Of course I always thought our doctrine of eternal progression made more sense than playing harps and singing in an angelic choir for all eternity. Whenever they told us that back in the evangelical Christian private school I wondered who in their right mind would think that was heaven.
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Jason (Formerly salesortonscom)
As I walk through this earth, nothing can stop, the Duke of Mirth!
