It was interesting read about the experiences of those in Africa, seeing angels and three hour testimony meetings, and the comments about not seeing angels when they are around us. Especially, the comments by Elder Busche regarding angels appearing to us and calling us to repentance.
I have really, seriously question people seeing angels all over, teaching each other what angels taught, regularly turning the block into a long testimony meeting. I don't think the Lord regularly sends angels to call people to repentace on a personal basis, that is part of the prophet's and apostles' jobs, the scriptures, local lessons and meetings, etc. Completely changing the structure and organization of meetings on a regular basis. To me, this sounds more like an evangelical carry over. Teaching each other what the angels taught in church, that just does not sound right. The Lord as an established order in doing things, and that is not it, it comes from the prophet and apostles down to us. Something just does not sound right there. I have to wonder.
I do believe angels do come, but generally with a specific purpose. I don't see them as showing up Joe Churchgoer and just start teaching things, especially since that is the main purview of the Holy Ghost. I have been taught many things by the Holy Ghost, enlightenment given, understanding opened. This is especially so as many things are only understood by the Spirit and I have learned this personally. Having angels show up on a regular basis, generally defeats the purpose of faith. When I think of faith, I think of the process the brother of Jared went through.
There are only several specific instances of angels showing up in the scriptures, and with very specific missions and purposes. I do believe they can appear to individuals, but it is usually not something for sharing with the world and is held close and sacred. Usually, when something is made manifest to us in a sacred way, it is something specifically for us and us only, maybe spouse. We have been given specific ways of telling if an appearance is of the Lord, we have no confirmation as such and in fact know that the devil has appeared as an angel in order to deceive.
I do know of one case where I think angel or some divine intervention was involved. I was working on a personal injury case regarding a woman, who when she was getting into her car in a parking lot, a car beside her backed out and pinned the woman in car door. By pinned I mean, she had one foot on the ground still, the other in the car, and her head was still out and above the roof of the car and between the door and car. The car door was forced shut, and latched with one leg still outside and her neck between the door and car body.
Some people saw and ran to help, but the pressure was so great on the latch that it could not release and slip loose. No one could loosen it and she was going fast. Suddenly, there was a man there, he walked over and just opened the door right up, walked a short distance and was gone. There were multiple eyewitnesses who stated this. They searched, but he was gone. It saved the woman's life.
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Lo, there I see my mother, my sisters, my brothers Lo, there I see the line of my people back to the beginning Lo, they call to me, they bid me take my place among them In the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live...forever
There is ONE person who is authorized to pronounce doctrine for the church, and THAT is the doctrine that should be preached in the church.
If we receive other manifestations, we are to use those for our own benefit. If any manifestation we receive goes against the standard works, or prophetic teachings, then that manifestation likely will do us much more harm than good.
And we don't teach our personal manifestations in church except as authorized by our bishop and moved upon by the spirit.
You do have a point, brethren, but at the same time let's not be so quick to dismiss that perhaps this does happen for the Saints in some African nations. Early members of the Church in this dispensation were not, as a whole, unaccustomed to being taught by angels... or so I've heard.
Having had the humbling honor of serving as a missionary and coming in contact with some of the great souls who have joined the Church who come from these nations, I do not doubt that The Lord can and in many cases may actually use this method to help teach and bring these brothers and sisters "up to speed".
After all, The Lord has said that His gospel will be taught to man after the manner of their own language. I personally think that in some cases, language can be more generalized to include more than just spoken tongue or written word... it could also include culture and having faith like that of a child.
Without going into detail, I have been in meetings where, though not physically visible, the Spirit was been so strong, those in attendance have known there were angels present... and it was confirmed by the presiding Priesthood Authority that we had been ministered to by those on the other side of the viel. Having angels present (visibly or not) does not preclude the mission and purpose of The Holy Ghost. Consider the accounts described when The Lord appeared to the people in the Americas after His Resurrection.
Actually, we do teach our personal manifestations in church every Fast and Testimony meeting when we share our testimonies with the congregation as moved upon by the Spirit. We may simply be (and this sounds so wrong to say) more "culturally" refined spiritually as to how and what we share...
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Cat, like the article of faith says, we believe in the ministering of angels. To my knowledge, noone has disputed that. But the early church had a huge problem with people receiving "revelations" for the entire church, either "angels" appearing to them or other such things. That is why a section of the D&C is dedicated to instructing us that each person can only receive revelation for his stewardship. It has to come only that way, or every person who's been fed a lie by the Adversary will claim that he is the exception to that rule.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
Since I come from a family of delusionals, here's my couple of pennies:
1) fake stuff happens. (And whether it's through mental illness or Satan, it doesn't really matter for me, cuz it's fake. --But, yes, by all means get the delusional person help.)
2) real stuff happens. (But if it doesn't happen to me or isn't related through my leadership for me, it really isn't my business.)
Is it nice to think that angels might be helping set up the church in Africa? Yes. But as I am without firsthand knowledge, I won't speculate. I am not a big fan of FPR. The potential that they'll come back and bite me in the butt is too great to me.
-- Edited by hiccups at 13:14, 2007-12-06
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"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
I'm just saying folks shouldn't be so quick to discount what was described third hand by Mahonri who heard it second hand from a General Authority who heard it directly from a member who was there. There certainly was no talk about it being new or differing doctrine. There are stories of individuals in these African nations who were prepared for the coming of the Gospel by way of dream and revelation, sometimes even decades before the Church was able to send missionaries. What was described was angels coming to minister to them in aid and to call them to repentance. Not new or differing doctrines.
Considering it was approximately 13 years ago and it happened in a branch, it would not be surprising if the branch was made up of mainly of the members of one or just a few extended families in one village. So culture plays into the "open" sharing of these sort of things. Elders in a tribe / village / family feel it is their obligation to teach others in their tribe / village / family what they have learned spiritually. Compared to our relative weak eagerness to share the gospel truths at times, it may even look on it as a compulsion in their respective culture to us.
-- Edited by Cat Herder at 13:29, 2007-12-06
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
it's taken me a while to learn that when a spiritual experience happens to me, that I not go out of my way to share it with everyone. Often I want to use it as proof to someone that the church is true... Well intended, but it often has the opposite effect of what the message was intended... or it just doesn't fit the Spirit in which it was given, cuz it was personal.
I think there is an appropriate time and place for all things, especially spiritual experiences. As a kid in my class, I used to wonder what was wrong with me that I'd had no special experiences, and ironically that led me to seek them--the result of which was spiritual experiences. I could see some, however, who might let that bad feeling fester and turn into bitterness against God or others.
I think it all depends upon the Spirit in which we take each other and by which things are communicated.
==Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
I think angels could be more visible in other cultures besides ours. The people of the BOM had more manifestations than I've heard of anyone having currently.
My only firsthand experience with people who claimed to see angels and visions was on my mission in Ukraine. None of them joined the Church. It got to be a reliable predictor. Any investigator who said they believed Joseph Smith had a vision because "the same thing happened to me!" wasn't going to be baptized. Not our choice - we'd teach them as long as they wanted. But visionaries didn't want to be Mormons.
And the only member who told us he'd seen a vision hadn't been to church since his baptism, had moved his girlfriend back in, and admitted (after we asked him) that he'd been doing drugs at the time of his vision.
So for myself, I am skeptical. But if it happens in Africa, more power to them.
29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.
30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.
31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.
32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 184243, p.272 The plea of many in this day is, that we have no right to receive revelations; but if we do not get revelations, we do not have the oracles of God; and if they have not the oracles of God, they are not the people of God. But say you, What will become of the world, or the various professors of religion who do not believe in revelation and the oracles of God as continued to His Church in all ages of the world, when He has a people on earth? I tell you, in the name of Jesus Christ, they will be damned; and when you get into the eternal world, you will find it will be so, they cannot escape the damnation of hell.
The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.51 - p.52 PRIESTHOOD AND REVELATION. Many have an idea that it is something very strange for men nowadays to have revelation, and that nobody should have revelation excepting brother [John] Taylor. Here, my brethren and sisters, you are upholding the quorum of the twelve twice a year in general conference, besides doing so at your quarterly conference, as prophets, seers and revelators, and you pray for them twice a day, and perhaps oftener, and should it be anything very strange if they should receive a revelation? How strange, indeed! There are in this church some six thousand seventies, and four thousand high priests, and four thousand elders, who hold the Melchizedek Priesthood, which is after the order of the Son of God, besides many thousands of priests holding the Aaronic Priesthood, and I would like to ask, if it was wrong to desire revelation? What business have we with this priesthood, if we have not power to receive revelation? What is the priesthood given for? If we do not have revelation, it is because we do not live as we should live, because we do not magnify our priesthood as we ought to; if we did we would not be without revelation,
Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.111-112 We may receive revelation every day. There is a way by which persons can keep their consciences clear before God and man, and that is to preserve within them the Spirit of God, which is the spirit of revelation to every man and woman. It will reveal to them, even in the simplest of matters, what they shall do, by making suggestions to them. We should try to learn the nature of this spirit, that we may understand its suggestions, and then we will always be able to do right. This is the grand privilege of every Latter-day Saint. We know that it is our right to have the manifestations of the Spirit every day of our lives.
Hallucinations... that's what folks said about Joseph Smith.
Be careful how you judge.
More later.
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
I won't go into details. I'll just say that while in the temple, my pure sweet sister has experienced the presence of loved ones who have departed. I never have, but I have absolutely no doubt that she has. I suspect they're among us frequently. I don't have the spiritual "eyes" to see them.
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
Joseph Smith himself said, "...for God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make it known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them, for the day must come when no man need say to his neighbor, Know ye that Lord; for all shall know Him (who remain) from the least to the greatest. How is this to be done? It is to be done by this sealing power, and the other Comforter spoken of, which will be manifest by revelation."
nuff said..
-- Edited by Mahonri at 20:09, 2007-12-06
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no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing... the truth of God will go forth till it has penetrated every website, sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done
I wonder if there are any contemporary prophets and apostles who have spoken on the topic of seeing angels. Indeed, Mahonri's quote are all from early church sources, which applied most specifically to the people of that day and culture.
I think it's stretching things to imply that if we (modern North Americans) are not seeing angels like the African saints, or the early LDS, then we're lacking in righteousness. Perhaps we're lacking in esire or faith or expectations or sensitivity to be able to see spirits/angels, but that is not the same thing as being less righteous. We live in a different culture, and with the church so well established here, angelic visitations may be less needful than in other situations.
Additionally, I think we should be careful not to interpret the lack of reports of angelic visitations as proof that they don't happen. I think that would be a foolish assumption to make.
Indeed, the late president Faust said (oh look! a modern day quote!) in the May 2006 Ensign,
I would like to say a word about the ministering of angels. In ancient and modern times angels have appeared and given instruction, warnings, and direction, which benefited the people they visited. We do not consciously realize the extent to which ministering angels affect our lives. President Joseph F. Smith said, In like manner our fathers and mothers, brothers, sisters and friends who have passed away from this earth, having been faithful, and worthy to enjoy these rights and privileges, may have a mission given them to visit their relatives and friends upon the earth again, bringing from the divine Presence messages of love, of warning, or reproof and instruction, to those whom they had learned to love in the flesh. Many of us feel that we have had this experience. Their ministry has been and is an important part of the gospel. Angels ministered to Joseph Smith as he reestablished the gospel in its fulness.
You young men are building your testimonies. These are strengthened by spiritual confirmation through the Holy Ghost in the ordinary experiences of life. While some great manifestation could strengthen your testimony, it wont likely happen that way.
Not trying to stir the pot or anything, but if we are comparing levels of faith, desire, spiritual sensitivity -- all of which are usually considered prime indicators of righteousness and humility -- between two populations, then at a fundamental level the argument could be made that there is a difference in righteousness or meriting of the particular manifestations... particularly when we find it hard to do our hometeaching / visiting teaching / pay tithing / magnify callings / be kind to one another / go to the temple regularly / keep the sabbath day holy / etc etc etc in our relative ease compared to those elsewhere.
If though the statement is going to be made that in our area where things are so well established as a church organization that the visitation of and ministering of angels is not according to the Lord's efficiency and economy, well, that is a different thing altogether than righteousness.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Not trying to stir the pot or anything, but if we are comparing levels of faith, desire, spiritual sensitivity -- all of which are usually considered prime indicators of righteousness and humility -- between two populations, then at a fundamental level the argument could be made that there is a difference in righteousness or meriting of the particular manifestations... particularly when we find it hard to do our hometeaching / visiting teaching / pay tithing / magnify callings / be kind to one another / go to the temple regularly / keep the sabbath day holy / etc etc etc in our relative ease compared to those elsewhere.
I don't know how to measure righteousness. In fact, I'm not sure what "righteousness" is. Maybe the closest thing is this guidance:
The best and most clear indicator that we are progressing spiritually and coming unto Christ is the way we treat other people. - Marvin J. Ashton
Another explanation of the increased perception of angels may have something to do with gifts. Perhaps the gift "discerning of spirits" applies here. It may be a gift passed down through a particular lineage, whereas where large numbers of saints dwell, the gifts of knowing the differences of administration and the diversities of operations are more readily appparent.
-- Edited by Roper at 19:58, 2007-12-07
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
I think Cat's stating that if you wanted to judge righteousness judgement you wouldn't count the number of angel stories they shared, but you'd probably choose something substantial like the works they accomplish in their lives, and how they affected other people's lives for good. By their works ye shall know them... right?
Then again, we all just kinda hate those types of people who seem to show off and live these "perfect" lives... don't we?
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
