Depressed LDSs?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Depressed LDSs?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I really dispute the original assertion as fact. She's probably referring to the use of Prozac, but does that mean everyone's depressed--or the lack of prozac use in other states is evidence of less depression? I know of people who don't take prozac in my neighborhood in Seattle who really really really really really really really (really) need it. Many are addicted to alcohol and have other very serious personal problems, because they lack general coping skills...

Of course we can discuss the high standards we LDS put upon ourselves. And we certainly have our faults and often get distracted by the appearance of bliss in others or by the obsession of being perfect... but I don't think that LDS have this attribute alone. I wouldn't be surprised if Satan works extra hard on LDS, but still, I think the benefits of the Spirit and our covenants can be very positive in helping us cope.

I think also sometimes we may glamorize and believe that those outside of zion may have more fun or just have a blast all the time...

My wife, for example, always used to think she had a somewhat pitiful and unadmireable life. She wasn't popular ever... she's never had the looks or body (though I disagree with her) or sophistication, she simply followed the standards of the church, and tried her best to be a decent good lady. Now as our neighbor's lives unravel and we end up watching their kids for weeks at a time, because they're in this or that crisis... we count our blessings that we lead such unremarkable lives.

--Ray

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I've heard that somewhere too about Utah. I think it depends on what polls and stats your looking at. I take alot of those statistics with a grain of salt.
It is amazing though how many drugs we dispense for depression at work on a daily basis.
Some people even take two, or three different ones at the same time.
The thought is it seems, if you're depressed, just take a pill...

I think people become emotionally dependent on them. Most of those drugs do not addiction potential (it depends on what class of drug) but I see the way some people totally freak out if they run out of refills on their meds and the doctor doesn't call back in a timely fashion. They want us to give them a few pills "to tied them over."
Usually we don't do that though. We will give pills to people if it is a life-saving medication or a critical maintenance medication (like for diabetes, or blood pressure) but not usually for anti-depressants.

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

Poncho, have you ever taken medication for depression?

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ponch I think you have underestimated the impact of anti-depressants for those who are in need of them.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Also, many anti-depressants are supposed to be kept at a steady level in the body to prevent side effects. They come with instructions to gradually increase dosage to full when going on them and to gradually decrease when going off.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

From what I know about Prozac, it is not addictive, and that it doesn't actually have an immediate effect upon a person, it takes a while of continual use before the effects kick in... and in fact often people start to feel better and stop taking them thinking they can go it alone, only to have their spouses or others have to subtly remind them that they probably ought to keep taking them...

I used to think that mood-leveling drugs like prozac were a crutch. I don't doubt that for some people, some folks might just need to learn to relax or there's some learned behaviors that better could fix them, but I think they are a remarkable blessing to the lives of those who would be otherwise unable to cope with life in general... they can also provide a leveling effect so that those who need to learn to cope with setbacks, abuse, and depression, can work without the fear that they'll give in to those feelings... in essense giving them a chance to step back and really look hard at themselves... it really helps people to be more capable, and as a whole they can have a very positive effect upon those who need it.

I do think the term "emotionally dependent" is an interesting idea. I never used to think of one's emotions as needing fixing... cuz my parents always told us kids to just control our tempers, or whatever else, and it always struck me as kinda silly that people could go to such emotional extermes... but as i get older I see that people come to the challenge of needing to control one's emotions from different levels. Some folk are naturally easy going, others very high strung, some randomly quirky, others randomly jerky. :)

I think as long as we're trying to improve ourselves, the use of tools in that pursuit are healthy and good.

--Ray

alabamabelle · Senior Member

Reading the thread about the depression rates, I think it's easy to say this group has more levels than another group but the fact remains that there are legitimate needs and lots of not so legitimate "need".

I have personally witnessed a lot of people being medicated for simply showing emotions that made someone else feel uncomfortable. Generally speaking, it was a family member who didn't want to deal with it.

Remarkably, I have also seen women who CHOOSE to medicate themselves so they are always 'happy and smiling' for their husbands. All I have to say to that is DO WHAT?!?!?

And, since by profession I worked for doctors and surgeons, I likewise have seen people (both male and female) so gripped in depression, bipolar or manic issues that were clinically diagnosed, that the only way to help them back was to prescribe psychotropics and/or anti-depression meds.

The issue isn't always whether people are depressed or not, but how they are taught to deal with the difference between true depression and momentary depressive issues. Sometimes people have NO ONE to talk to and they spiral down past 'normal' and can't find their way back without help.

We have developed a microwave culture that if we pop a pill, we can make all of our problems go away within a moment. (That is one reason we have the MRSA outbreaks going on because of overprescribing of antibiotic meds!) Too many people are addicted to saying they are on meds rather than taking meds because they need them.

For those who truly need them, Rx meds literally mean the difference between experiencing life and just passing through it stroking time.

For many people, the Rx meds are a crutch to prevent them from making OTHER people unhappy. And that is just sad.

A prime example is the wife of a drug rep we know who wanted his wife to put on the RIGHT kind of image: her baking cookies, taking care of his bazillion kids by herself all of the time, happy and smiling for his client base and not causing him any problems. She was on so much medicine that she looked like the Joker.
Ponch covered an issue that is sensitive for a lot of people because those that hang on the pharmacy counter hoping to be 'tided over' are not always in need. Some of them are in WANT. Two different issues.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think you guys missed the point of my post. Or else I didn't convey it well.
I'm not saying that people who take meds for depression don't need them, because some people truly do. I'm saying that sometimes depression can be treated successfully without taking medication. I have a friend who found other ways to treat her depression without taking medication.
And yes, some medications, including anti-depressants are most effective when a certain level in the bloodstream is maintained. Which is why we try to counsel patients to pay close attention to how many refills they have left on their script and not wait until they run out to call the doctor or have us call the doctor. There are also times where people want constant refills and they ignore doctors' requests to come in for an office visit to re-evaluate and examine blood levels. Sometimes doctors tell us no when we call them for refills on their patients' prescriptions.

We have become a pill-popping society. AlabamaBelle is correct. Not all people "need" to take medication for depression. And I am the last person to begrudge anyone who does need to take medication for depression. For others it is absolutely necessary.
Though oftentimes the side-effects also can be as serious as the disorder itself and many people don't take them properly. We witness that frequently at work too.

And yes Bok if you must know, I have taken medication for depression before.

arbilad · Head Chef

I agree with Poncho on this. There may be people who really need those anti-depression pills. I really don't know. But it seems to me that every time someone mentions feeling depressed, people start telling them to take pills to solve the problem.
In many cases, there's a root problem that can be addressed to solve the depression. It's the same thing with headaches. Sure, you can take a pill to try to make the headache go away. And it may indeed go away. But that pill may be helping you ignore the real problem. In Colorado, a lot of people get headaches because it's really dry here and they're not drinking enough water. You could take a pill to make the headache go away. But that doesn't change the fact that your body isn't getting the water it needs to work properly. There are people who have complex underlying issues that cause the headache, and a pill can help them get through the pain that isn't easily treatable. But people way too often treat the symptom and not the cause.
I think too frequently it's the same thing with depression. I think anti-depression meds are way overprescribed.

Janey · Senior Member

News article about Utah being #1 in the nation for anti-depressant us

In case you wanted to read the article.

Janey · Senior Member

In many cases, there's a root problem that can be addressed to solve the depression. It's the same thing with headaches. Sure, you can take a pill to try to make the headache go away. And it may indeed go away. But that pill may be helping you ignore the real problem.
And the 64 million dollar question, which coco posed in her OP, is what if the real problem that the pill is masking has something to do with Mormonism?

I've been through a depressive bout, and a lot of my issues had to do with my reaction to Church doctrine. I am off anti-depressants, and usually stable. I also have less testimony and more questions on certain issues than pre-depression. On the other hand, I have a stronger testimony of Christ's grace than I did pre-depression.

I'm not unique in that. I hung around some of the message boards for disaffected Mormons during that time, and it seemed like everyone on those boards had depression, and connected their depression to the church. I'm unique in that I stayed with the church even though church experiences triggered depressive episodes. But I'd never tell anyone in real life that one of my worst depressive breakdowns was triggered by going to the temple (except DaKnife). Good Mormons do not sob uncontrollably during temple sessions because they've just received the unmistakable impression that God hates them and they're worthless. Good Mormons, even ones with depression, feel comforted at the temple.

I don't think Mormonism can say much about depression besides, "there must be something physically wrong with you - go take a pill." Depression cuts you off from the spirit, which is a 'dark night of the soul' that some other Christians experience (Mother Teresa's letters reveal a longterm dark night of the soul). However, Mormonism does not allow for a dark night of the soul. The promise is that if we remember Christ, "we will always have his spirit to be with us," in the sacramental prayer. There's no room in that promise to have the spirit withdrawn for any reason besides sin or a physical cause such as low serotonin.

I haven't heard any Mormon talk about having the spirit withdrawn more than momentarily for any reason besides sin or excommunication. No Mormon talks about a dark night of the soul. Mormon theology doesn't have room for depression as anything other than a physical illness. So take a pill and get better.

Ros · Senior Member

I actually wandered over here to start this thread...

All my opinions are pretty universal in this matter. I think LDS people in Utah have far more daily pressures when it comes to

a) having many more children than the average family. Instead of two working parents and 2.5 kids, we have a stay at home mom, one salary and 6 kids.

b) church callings. Sometimes multiple callings. Sometimes callings that require daily attention plus big projects here and there.

c) we don't "blow off steam" as well as the general non-mormon population. No drinking and dancing at clubs on the weekend. Less likely to go out as much due to reasons in (a). We want to be model members of the church, we feel that if we have a melt-down, it will take only 13 minutes for the Bishopric, RS presidency, and our own auxilliary presidents to know about it. (I hate that.) We have higher expectations of ourelves and even others. For a huge population of LDS, social events always have a commitee behind them. (that is to say, thier whole social life centers on church functions where potluck is the norm and you have to put the chairs away when you're done)
I need more than that to be genuinely happy from day to day.

(I know, I'm a worldly, adventure-needy person and If I had more faith or was more Christlike I wouldn't take my religion for granted and would instead recognize that being closer to the spirit would bring me more happiness than any of the extra curricular activities I crave... But I think this mentality is why so many people in utah are depressed.)

I do know that when Womens Conference has a class related to depression, it is packed with a line going across campus. So, someone's feeling it.

Disclaimer: the above statements, including the gross generalizations, are my own personal feelings. In no way do I expect anyone else to feel the same way, nor do I really expect anyone to actually fall into the norms I have described. In general, when I said "we", "they," "them," I really meant "I" and "me."

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

And yes Bok if you must know, I have taken medication for depression before.

Just checking... because I wasn't sure if you were one of those people; you know, the ones who think that taking pills is just a weakling's way out of a not so fun time.

Why would I think that could be the case? Because I used to be one of those people. I had a deep seated belief system that allowed no room for synthetic medication. When I got depressed, I wanted to do it all myself without manmade chemical help. So I did the therapy, which taught me a lot, and used an herb that helped a little, and felt so proud that I was coping without depending on the crutch of evil antidepressants, like so many losers were.

After five years of hanging on, marking time in that dark night of the soul that Janey described so well, I decided I was sick of living a half life. I wasn't completely crazy, like some people. I wished that I could die, but knew I'd go to hell if I did myself in. I could deal with depression, but only just barely. And meanwhile my husband and children were being cheated out of a decent, happy wife and mother. Help was available; why was I trudging through hip-deep snow when there were snowshoes sitting right there?

I was on two different medications until very recently, and now I'm down to one. And while I wish I were completely healthy and didn't need the help the medication gives, I know I'm not yet ready to go off completely. I can actually feel the Spirit again, sometimes; when I'm not on medication, I feel completely isolated and forsaken. Someone who hasn't felt that utter blackness of spirit simply cannot comprehend it.

So I feel a little annoyed when people make blanket statements like "some of these people are on two and three different medications"... well, it likely is because they actually need them. Getting the meds just right can take a bit of trial and error and time. Now that you've clarified a little, I see that you didn't mean it quite the way it sounded at first. So I'm good. smile

I get similarly annoyed with statements like "the Lord can heal any problem if we have enough faith" (I don't mean that's been said in this thread, but I've heard that sentiment before on this and other forums.) We hear that a lot--and I think that's one of the doctrines that may actually exacerbate depression, as Janey described. Of course He can heal anything. But it doesn't always happen--in fact I think it's actually pretty rare. And implying that the depressed person hasn't been *snaps fingers* healed because of a failing on their part --that they didn't study scriptures or pray enough, or have enough faith--does absolutely nothing to help. So I hope nobody here will make that mistake when trying to comfort or help someone who struggles with this most insidious of ailments.

Oh, and fww, I was diagnosed in California and moved to Utah later.

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

bok...depression and the use of meds is really no different then being diabetic and needing insulin...it's just a different chemical.

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Cocobeem wrote:

My daughter told me that her 6th grade teacher mentioned in class that Utah was the most depressed state in the nation. She heard it on the news.

Why do you think that is?

You KNOW it has something to do with the Church. We can't possibly get around that. Cuz you KNOW if we were the least depressed, we (the Church) would be taking credit for it, if not in an outright way.

I'm always hearing this from mormon critics. "If yer dang church is so dad-blasted cool, how come you marminz is all depressed and killin' yerselves?" Here's my standard answer:

With Utah being over 50% non-LDS, my theory is that all the non-mormons secretly know they're in the wrong, but refuse to admit it and join up, and such unresolved issues cause depression and suicide.

(Yes, my theory is offered in jest - I don't really believe it at all. But when you take the latest study about how Utahn's are more depressed than other states, and think you can apply that study to mormons, you should take a minute and think - do you really have any more evidence for your theory than I do for mine?)

LM

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 08:23, 2007-11-30

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Thanks, Janey, for that post. Even though it is heartbreaking to read, I think we're starting to get somewhere now...

"I haven't heard any Mormon talk about having the spirit withdrawn more than momentarily for any reason besides sin or excommunication. No Mormon talks about a dark night of the soul. Mormon theology doesn't have room for depression as anything other than a physical illness. So take a pill and get better."

I agree with this. I think we're taught just as you mentioned, living the Gospel makes life easier, better, more fulfilled, happier... If you're not fulfilled, better or happier you need to repent of something or take it up a notch, so to speak. But, what other option is there, when we are so driven for conversions? Is it good public policy to talk about how our women (not trying to discount the men here) are so much more depressed than the general population?

There's lots of good ideas here and I'll be back. Ros and bok had excellent points as well...

I'm reading a book called Confronting the Myth of Self-Esteem for our ward book club. I'll try to share some interesting things from that book, also. Briefly, the author's point is that our search for Self-Esteem is our very problem.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

LM- Briefly, let's keep it real, shall we? If we were last for depression meds the Church would be taking credit for that. What if North Dakota had 50% Catholics and was also #1 for depression meds... you wouldn't see a connection? So let's stop with the "You can't prove a connection" thoughts because it's too hard to face or whatever.

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 08:35, 2007-11-30

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Discussion of this topic is sorta a pet peeve of mine, so get out your salt.

Every so often an article like this comes out. Invariably, people go from talking in generalities to judging the individual examples they can think of. Using our own experiences, it seems like as a group of people, we start trying to sort people who use anti-depressants into two groups. Those who need to use them and are therefore justified and those who are overmedicated and using to somehow get around the lessons and realities of life.

How can I judge what goes on inside another person's head? Even for psychiarists it is an inexact science translating what a person says about how they feel into a diagnosis and prescription. Often, even after tests and thourough exploration, they make a best guess and see if the medicine has the desired results. Sometimes, in crisis doctors have to try something right away for the person's own safety.

How can I look at what another person allows me to see of their life and judge a need or lack of need? How can I call it a crutch when I don't know what kind of quality of life they might have without it? How can I judge someone else's dependence when everything I have in my life has and does depend on Heavenly Father's giving it of it to me? How can I judge a person as being overmedicated when getting medication right is often a long journey? Wouldn't I want them to error on the side of overmedicating for awhile versus undermedicating if it means a person lives long enough to find the right solution?

Ideally, people carefully and prayfully consider their options when it comes to emotional and mental health issues. A lot of times, however, in the throws of depression, this cannot be done very well. How can I judge that either? How can I judge whether someone is doing the best, their best or just trying to avoid the pain? Is it any of my business? How can I judge if what I see from a medicated person is a symptom caused by the medication or the disease? Will my judging make the situation any better? Or could it contribute to someone not getting help they need?

dianoia · Senior Member

Good heavens. I've been waiting for WEEKS to get approval here at Bountiful. I was reading the depression thread and so wanted to say something I attempted re-registering.

Guess what? It told me my on-line name was "already in use".

Huh?

Turns out I am registered here after all. Somehow I missed the e-mail, and was started to get paranoid thinking arbilad didn't like me or something.

I'll be all organized in a bit and go to the Introductions thread, and post more here in a moment. This is such a stereotype, but I've got to get the last of my visiting teaching done - yes, it is the 30th - and I'll be back in a while and give my 2 cents.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

As for Ros's points... the one about having more babies than the "usual" ... I think this is a good point. Women's hormones fluctuate a great deal with the curse and also with pregnancy and birthing. This may provide more of a chance for post-partum depression to appear. I've had 5 babies and 4 miscarriages. Only once I've had what I'd call ppd although I did not take any meds. It only lasted about 3 months. The funny thing was I was only about 1/2 aware that something "weird" was going on. I was only 1/2 aware of what I did in general. It was when I "snapped" out of it one morning (I distinctly remember the feeling and the moment) when I thought to myself, "Whoooooa. That. Was. Weird." And I suddenly felt like my normal self again. It was gone and hasn't, thank Goodness, been back. That was cocokid#3 - the first child together with MrCoco and when my life should've for all intents and purposes and practicality been the happiest.

And yes, we are commanded to not 1) put off children, or 2) limit the number of our children. I think this could cause turmoil inside some people. Ok, wait. I'll try to cut through my own crap - Wouldn't that in itself cause turmoil in everyone?? I mean, I have personally known women with serious health problems who took on the attitude that giving their lives for the birth of children was the most noble thing they could possibly be called to do in this life.

Also the thought about blowing off steam and how much of our social life centers on Church activities. I've felt similar things. Sometimes I feel "narrow" for lack of a better word. I think there's a lot of substitutes for alcohol or illegal drugs going on. Sugar (which is really its own drug as far as physiological stuff goes), overeating in general or escapism through the internet or common "smut novels" comes to mind off the top of my head. These non-temple rec. threatening alternatives are probably masking depression in some people.

How would one go about "living the Gospel MORE"? (To overcome depression.) Is it really that simple? If we repent ENOUGH can we somehow outgrow the temptations of Satan? We'll be BEYOND him? Is it possible to arrive at some level where we can no longer be troubled with depression? Can we overcome it in the way we overcome, say, a tendency toward some other sin? Why do some people even look at it as stemming from sin?

My own personal experience with Satan tells me that no matter how great our stature in the realm of spirituality becomes, Satan will ALWAYS be able to test us in our minds so long as we are in this probation.

Are there elements of the so-called Mormon Church membership experience that are causing us this mental anguish (that's one way I explain depression), these trials of the mind, these dark nights of the soul? Are there aspects of the Church that are not actually doctrine but have become such a tradition it's hard to distinguish any more?

And with my skill in putting apocalyptic twists on almost any topic, What happens when the stuff hits the fan and we can't get meds anymore? Do we lose our testimonies? Will we care?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Oh, and hic's thought - I don't want this to turn into a "Who's justified and who's not" issue. I'm more thinking of the fact that there ARE so many LDSs on meds for depression and why that is. We could even ask, "Why are so many LDSs take meds who are not justified?" Something is missing here and I want to talk about the connection with our faith.

I appreciate the personal thoughts and experiences shared. If someone wants to move this to the Super Secret, I'm fine with that. It may allow us a deeper honesty on the subject.

alabamabelle · Senior Member

The same host of reasons that the general population has for their requirement to use prescription medicine exist in the LDS bubble as well. Chemical imbalance, family history and histrionics, coping issues and most certainly self worth issues, worthiness/decency issues . . .etc. our 'Mormon DNA' doesn't block those out.

For those within the "mainstream" of the church, the pressure of life within our microcosm of trying to adhere to and live gospel principles may be a catalyst to bring up what things are just beneath the surface. It is all to easy to start playing the comparison game when we feel that we won't make it to the upper rungs of the highest ladder in the Celestial Kingdom.

Personal demons and issues that have to do with day to day survival seem to be, at times, attributed to SIN when they are just life in general. Everything isn't sin! Although there are legitimate worthiness and cleanliness issues that can be VERY DEPRESSING and create major problems of long term consequence, just because a person is suffering from major problems and depression is NO justification for determining they are sinful.

Some delightfully deluded man once gave a talk that intimated that faith, faith and more faith was the answer to it all and that if we weren't living lives of perfection, bliss and joy that it was because we were sinful and weak.

I can only assume he has never spent the night crying and shaking all over because of the panic, anxiety and depression that has snuffed out the Spirit and left me feeling useless and worthless. And I hope he never has that experience.

Sometimes, better living through chemistry is the BEST answer for those of us who have internal issues that keep us from handling our load. Sometimes, it is an issue of having someone to talk to and unload our burden with.

But there is no wrong answer on this one unless people are abusing meds that they have no legitimate need to take. And that's between them and their Doc and the Good Lord above.

Organist · Senior Member

The three standards of treatment for major depression are
1. Psychotherapy
2. Exercise
3. Medications

(Electroconvulsive therapy works better and more immediately than medications).

I'd like to look at #2. I remember that BYU has often been ranked as the most fit university in the country by Men's Fitness Magazine. Could it be the students are all self-medicating (through exercise) their depression from being Mormon? They start so young, don't they?

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Cocobeem wrote:
So let's stop with the "You can't prove a connection" thoughts because it's too hard to face or whatever.

Yeah, fine with me. It's a good response to the critic's argument, in that it highlights the leaps of logic the critic often is making.

My actual real personal opinion: Self-medication is a major factor in alcohol and drug use. People drink to forget their pain. They get high because they feel better than when they're not high. These are coping mechanisms that practicing LDS don't have available. Legal medication is available, regardless of our opinions about how overprescribed, or how we could solve our issues without them.

So, when non-LDS have a few drinks and talk over their issues with their friends after missing the promotion/losing the court battle/fighting with the spouse, or whatever, that's called "a pressure relief valve" or "normal". When Mormons do it without violating the WoW, it's called "therapy and medication".

LM

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 12:50, 2007-11-30

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

It is entirely possible that higher LDS expectations could slightly skew the overal numbers.

FWIW, if you read the original data, the states are separated in the various categories by 3-4 percentage points (Utah has 10% who reported a depressive episode, vs. 7% in the #1 state).

In a couple of the categories, the studies, while likely random (I really couldn't tell), are self-reported. So, if someone has a less-than-perfect period in their lives, they may count this as a depressive episode, and report that "yes, I have felt depressed 4 or 5 times within the past year."

Now, an LDS person just might have higher expectations: "If I am living right, life should be perfect. Life is not perfect, so this lack of perfection is quite depressing."

Another person may feel "Meh, shtuff happens. Life wasn't meant to be perfect all the time." and not really count it as a depressive episode.

So I think it is possible that our higher expectations may be causing us to over-report the general challenges of life as depressive episodes.

As far as the "dark night of the soul" is concerned:

I think that God does let us be alone for a while from time to time, to allow us to grow and become the Gods that we can become. Even The Saviour was left alone for a time. If we are constantly guided every minute by the Holy Ghost, then we are nothing more than children, or Pavlov's dog, who trots over for a treat each time the bell rings. We must be able to choose the right and sometimes soldier on with only our internal strength, and the strength of our family and friends to pull us through. Sometimes. Not all the time. And the stronger we become, perhaps the greater frequency He allows us to test our inner strength.

Of course, the preceeding paragraph could be complete crap, too.

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I had depression before I was LDS. When I joined the Church, I no longer felt depressed. However, I did become depressed again in a few years. And that was hard as I was always able to look at my new faith and blessings of being a member as what rescued me. Being a member was a blessing in many ways that are so special to me. God has given me peace and comfort during a lot of my struggles through the years. My worst depression was coupled with ocd manifesting itself as it did.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I don't like things to be "generalized" either. I have a hard time accepting that the possible reason for Utah having the highest statistics for people with depression is directly related to mormonism.
Not everyone in Utah is a mormon for one thing.

It's rather evident that people who are mormon may get depressed and may at one time or another require medication. Like others here on this thread have pointed out, there are a multitude of factors that need to be considered as to why depression affects certain groups of people (including those who happen to be mormon).

Janey · Senior Member

Another thought about childbearing and depression is that you can't take anti-depressants while pregnant or nursing. I had a doc tell me Paxil would be okay. A few months ago, I saw a tv ad from a lawyer asking if you took Paxil and now your baby has heart or lung defects - call now to get in on the class action! So meds aren't an option while you're having all those many kids, which may simply leave you further down in the dumps.

Hoss - I liked your thought about the "dark night of the soul" and it would work great in a talk about getting an answer to prayer and how God doesn't always tell us exactly what to do. But I was talking about a stronger darkness - the kind where you wish you could cease to exist (not die, because then you'd have to face God) and you feel like you're falling off a cliff and screaming but no one can hear you and everyone hates you too much to help you anyway, and you wish you'd just hit bottom and vanish but it never ends and you don't have any inner strength, just a lot of fear. People think depression is all about sadness because of the name. I remember being overwhelmed with fear. And the scariest part was my worst enemy was locked inside my skull with me and there was no way to get away. I wished I could have gotten drunk or high, just to get away from myself for a few hours.

I also think Hoss's point about maybe depression being over-reported because of our high expectations of happiness is also worth considering.

[self-edited at arbilad's request because the edited text spoke out against
church practices. My apologies.]
I've really liked teaching the NT this year because it's all about God's grace.

-- Edited by Janey at 16:02, 2007-11-30

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

Janey, I appreciate hearing of your struggle. And what a painful, dark and scary place that you describe. I didn't know you then. You do give hope to those who struggle now.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

So... trying to glean possible *reasons* for the numbers...

Lack of exercise.
Too many bouts with post-partum depression.
Too many overstate their normal down moods as depression.
Expectations for outward Church service too high.

oop-something came up. Be back.

dianoia · Senior Member

Here's my story. (apologies for any of you who've already heard it.)

I have a tendency to post-partum lows as it is. Not full-blown depression, but not fun. It takes a full two years before my normal energy levels return.

And then son3 was born, with a major heart defect - Transposition of the Great Arteries, plus other stuff, for you medical types. I pushed out a ten pound baby and was following an ambulance to another hospital an hour and a half later. And never stopped going for the next five months.

So big surprise, once he came home after his open heart surgery all fixed and off meds and oxygen, I crashed. Finally dragged myself to my doctor on the urgings of my family.

Even then, it was so hard to take that first pill. I called for my husband from the bathroom, "Dear? Are you sure I really need to take this?" "Yes, honey, you really do."

Now here's something that's just my personal experience: depression for me provided the opportunity to discover I'd been walking around with behaviors and attitudes that weren't healthy, or correct. So a traumatic event was the trigger for clinical depression, but my own negative self-talk, bad sleeping habits, and wrong-headed attitudes about my worth being measured in a clean home and supper on the table prevented my healing.

Clinical depression is bar none, the hardest thing I've ever done. And it's one of the best things for me, growth-wise, that's ever happened.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

FWIW: Janey, if someon told me they didn't have the strength to go to the temple, or read scriptures, etc., I would be perfectly fine with that. Hopefully, I would be talking to them on a good day (for me) and have the presence of mind to offer them help.

As far as the study is concerned, most who read it are taking it as "Utah has the highest per capita clinical diagnoses of depression." That is NOT what the study says. The most significant factors are self-reported bouts that a layperson defines as "depression."

So, I'd like to add one more to Coco's list:

Ignorance of what true clinical depression is;

although I don't know if we are any more ignorant (per capita) than any other state.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I have no idea if I've ever been depressed.

--Ray

Janey · Senior Member

Hoss - excellent point about the study, and how many may not know what clinical depression is. And I trust you would be more understanding about someone quitting the basics, but that wasn't the reaction I got when I talked to people I trusted. Even other people who have had depression got very nervous about abandoning prayer and scripture study. It was fascinating to see how ingrained the idea is that those activities always bring the spirit.

Now here's something that's just my personal experience: depression for me provided the opportunity to discover I'd been walking around with behaviors and attitudes that weren't healthy, or correct. So a traumatic event was the trigger for clinical depression, but my own negative self-talk, bad sleeping habits, and wrong-headed attitudes about my worth being measured in a clean home and supper on the table prevented my healing.

Clinical depression is bar none, the hardest thing I've ever done. And it's one of the best things for me, growth-wise, that's ever happened.
dianoia - I notice the same thing. I was surprised at some of the things that I'd thought were just part of my personality that disappeared when I was on meds. Now that I'm off meds, I can recognize those things as depressive and invalid, and it's easier to dismiss them. I had different issues that prevented my healing, but the meds helped identify them for me. And I agree completely with the second paragraph of yours I quoted here. You should crosstitch it. smile

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Even other people who have had depression got very nervous about abandoning prayer and scripture study

As they should. Those activities may not cure severe depression, but they are basic activities that have a leveling effect in our lives and provide constant reminders and insights. Heck, I've known people who were led to medical solutions because of careful prayer and study...

I think a lot of people get "nervous" because it sounds like you're advocating abandoning god in favor of a manmade solution... of course that's not what you're saying, but with the limitations of language, and the personal nature of one's own particular trials--and the contempt with which some therapies have shown towards religion, it sometimes forms a perfect storm for caution.

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Since June Cleaver was brought up on another thread, it reminded me...

Our SP's wife is like the perfect homemaker. Her nieces and nephews even called her June Cleaver. Recently it's "come out" - of her own doing - that she has long suffered from depression and even suffers from some RA or some other autoimmune stuff (don't recall the details). She is always perfectly groomed and well, just perfect in general.

See?

err- I mean,
So, what do you think that means?

Wait... nothing, right?

dianoia · Senior Member

I heard a woman who I really admire once say, "There is no such thing as a person who's got it all together. If someone seems perfect to you, it just means they're struggling in private ways that you can't see."

I admit I've spent some serious time pondering why it is I struggled with depression when others go through serious stress and don't. The truth is, I honestly don't know why, other than what the Lord has told me privately about things He intends for me to do in the future.

But in my readings on depression, I've come to the conclusion that explanations like lack of faith or church culture are too simplistic.

There's the idea of self-medicating that's already been thrown out. Questions about statistics and the agendas of those funding the studies, the problems with how people perceive their own moods.

Here's a few more things to consider. Immigrants who move to the US or Canada from parts of the world where depression rates are a lot lower will match the general populace in a generation. One book actually said, "Depression is the price we pay for prosperity." But a North American lifestyle means more than just prosperity. It means your extended family typically doesn't live close by anymore. It means a pace of life that is faster. It means the temptation of empty calories and getting less sleep so you can do more.

And something I've been wondering about - and I admit I could be very wrong about this - what if the adversary plays his part as well? Outward persecution makes us rally together as a people, so what if the tactic is to divide and conquer? Depression is extremely isolating.

Of course, even asking that question can cause problems. Can make those who struggle with depression feel even less worthy. But speaking personally, it was very hard to fight his influence when I was low. he sure loves to kick you when you're down.

Do Mormons suffer more from depression? And if they do, why?
I don't know

DaKnife · Senior Member

Do Mormons suffer more from depression? And if they do, why?
Or are they just less likely to hide it under alchohol.

Not that, other than my dear Janey, I have much experience with depression.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

"There is no such thing as a person who's got it all together. If someone seems perfect to you, it just means they're struggling in private ways that you can't see."

I agree, though I don't think it's fair to say that everyone suffers from depression either privately or not. :) (not that you said that, but sometimes that's the implication in some of these discussions...)

God gives us all plenty to do... AND... Everyone has different challenges...

It could be that Molly Mormon's struggle is exactly her service... that she works so blooming hard for the rest of us slacker mormons who have personal problems. :) I am grateful for capable mormons who don't appear to have problems... I admire that there are those who manage to make it through life without crushing others with their own personal challenges--and I don't begrudge them for keeping it private.

I think if you wanna share your troubles, go for it. I'll do my best to support you.
If you wanna keep your troubles private and go it alone (with God's help of course), then good for you--I'll try to do my best to support you. I'll try not to envy you. I'll try my best to listen to your ideas and do my share when you suggest ideas to make the ward better, even if I think that perhaps you're so privileged.

I dunno... just being a mormon in this society of ours, imo, is cause for celebration. I celebrate all of you, just for sticking with the program! I think that Satan works extra hard on LDS... so Yay for Mormons everywhere!!

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 18:05, 2007-12-03

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:

She is always perfectly groomed and well, just perfect in general.

So, what do you think that means?

Wait... nothing, right?

I suppose like most SP wives I've known, yup, she's perfect.

arbilad · Head Chef

Well, Mahonri, I'm sure that you think the wife of a certain former SP is perfect.

-- Edited by arbilad at 18:45, 2007-12-03

dianoia · Senior Member

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt, ray. I hadn't realized until you pointed it out that some may take that comment to mean everyone struggles with depression to some degree- which wasn't what I meant at all.

Just that everyone has struggles. "In the quiet heart is hidden sorrow that the eye can't see."

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Conceptually, maybe it makes more sense to consider "In the hidden heart is quiet sorrow that the eye can't see" since one doesn't have to be quiet to suffer or have struggles with the various degrees of depression.

dianoia · Senior Member

ooooh, I like it. Thanks, Cat.

Except then it wouldn't fit with the tune anymore.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Yeah, I've heard that point made before, several times. "You just don't know what goes on behind the scenes," type idea. I've taken comfort in that thought, as a matter of fact. It lasted a while. Then I get to thinking, "What's my problem? I can't be happy or can't get envy for Sis. X out of my head unless I conjure up some unseen problem she has? Why is my positive state of mind dependent on her being less than what she appears? That reminds me of Satan's attitude... he's miserable and he wants everyone else miserable, etc..."

Which brings up another point. I was talking with a friend about those handouts you get once in a while in Church where it tells you If you're feeling the Spirit/If you're not feeling the Spirit. She mentioned depression feels just like the "If you're not feeling the Spirit" list. I completely agree. Is it simply Satan? If it is simply Satan (I say "simply" but he is far from simple, ime) and we take meds for it, are we "overcoming" him... truly?

dianoia · Senior Member

Interesting points, coco. I'm going to take some time to think about point 1, and get back to you.

In terms of point 2, I would respectfully disagree with your friend who says that depression feels like being without the Spirit. Or at least that's how it always feels.

It's problematic to describe depression, because individual experiences can be quite different. For example, Janey said her meds made some of her negative thought processes disappear. Nothing like that ever happened to me. It took time and humility and self-reflection to realize what my bad habits were, because they were still there.

I felt the Spirit doing my clinical depression, as well as the workings of the adversary. In fact, some of my most cherished experiences happened during that time.

I tend to use analogy to describe what it was like, because words are hard to find. Many times I felt like I was in a padded room, and I could hear the Spirit from the other side of a closed door. Oftentimes His voice was very faint, but I had a sense that He was yelling so that I could hear Him at all. My husband told me a while ago that the Spirit was so strong with me during those years it was extraordinary. Which makes sense to me, because if two of the major ways the Spirit speaks to us - our emotions and our reason - just aren't working, He's got to be loud to get anything through those damaged pathways.

I know these are long posts, my apologies. I'd like to say more, to share more, but I'm going to try to spread my posts out.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

dianoia wrote:

I felt the Spirit doing my clinical depression, as well as the workings of the adversary. In fact, some of my most cherished experiences happened during that time.
Ditto... but of course -- though I felt the Spirit during my bout -- it may be possible in some folks that the Spirit does do (as in induces) the depression as a form of humbling... in some sick twisted world only populated by creatures imagined by Ray...

dianoia wrote:

I know these are long posts, my apologies. I'd like to say more, to share more, but I'm going to try to spread my posts out.

Oh, trust any one of the oldtimers from around these parts... you don't know long posts until you've suffered through a few of mine...

"You yung'un's just don't know how easy you got it... why back in my day, I had to wade through five pages of Cat Herder posts just to get to the reply button, up-hill and without so much as a windbreaker on to fight the elements!" smile

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

When I've had darker days the influence of the Spirit does feel shorter or muffled, or they are pointedly strong until they're gone and then it's just all the more sad that the feeling doesn't last, perhaps with a cynical edge to it, and I do think that if Satan had his way, he would cause in all of us the physical/hormonal/emotional and spiritual changes that lead to depression.

--Ray

dianoia · Senior Member

Cat, are you saying I should run with it and stop trying to edit myself?

Dude, you have no idea what you're in for. biggrin

Cat just let the cat out of the bag. wink