Accepting the Standards of the Church

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Accepting the Standards of the Church

arbilad · Head Chef

The church standards are ideal. I'm imperfect, so the fact that I fall short of the standards occasionally doesn't say anything about the standards, but about me.

glumirk · Senior Member

What Arbi says. I really hate it when people feel the need to "justify" not living up to the standards. No one is perfect, but we can all try to get there. I'm a firm believer that as long as we put as much effort into keeping the standards, Christ takes that partial credit and makes it whole. That means we should always be trying for full credit!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Sort of as attributes of God.
Sometimes.
Shouldn't be.
No.
That's just a weird question.
No.
No.
Not "just" lipservice.
Yes.
No.
Weird question - need to rephrase.
Uh... noooo.... I don't think so. But in a way... this question's weird, too.
No.
Weirdo question.
Yes.
No.
Yes.
No.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

I accept and appreciate the standards of the gospel.

I try to view them more as God saying "I am not just up here needing to boss people around for no intelligent reason. If you'll just do things My way, you'll be happier and better off, in every circumstance, I promise."

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

What are "the standards of the church"? Are they the things we read about in the "For the Strength of Youth" manual? Anything else?

What are "the standards of the Gospel"?

I figure we gotta have the same idea about what we're talking about, before we answer the questions.

LM

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

LM: Why must you ask so many questions? Why can't you just be happy to comment, like everyone else?

--Ray

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

LoudmouthMormon wrote:

What are "the standards of the church"? What are "the standards of the Gospel"?

Okay, I'll touch off the bruhaha:

The standards of the church and the standards of the Gospel are equivalent (see "Why the church is as true as the gospel, by Eugene England")

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I think the standards of the Church are a lot more numerous.

Here's a link to the Eugene England talk. (Since I'm so much more *considerate* of my fellow forumites... isn't that a standard?)

http://www.zionsbest.com/gospel.html

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I accept the fact that the Church standards are provided by the Lord to protect my family and I. It doesn't mean I find them easy or that I don't fall short on occassion. What I cannot stand is when people try and justify deviation from those standards. My favorite are sisters and YW in the ward who flaunt the modesty standards and make up excuses that the standard is outdated, there are no options out there for clothes that fit the standard, or my personal favorite that the church doesn't specifically say this outfit or style is prohibited.

My personal favorite is the rationalizations people use for viewing innapropriate media or not waiting until 16 to start dating.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Cocobeem wrote:

I think the standards of the Church are a lot more numerous.

Actually, the standards of the church are the standards of the gospel for the day and time in which you live.

For example "don't partake of alcohol" is a standard for our day. It wasn't one in Jesus' day, and it wasn't one in Joseph Smith's day.

"You must have a plural marriage to attain exaltation" was a standard in Brigham Young's day. Not so much in our day.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I guess I'm thinking more of "standards" that may vary from ward to ward or country to country... like, You must take out wet wipe and clean hands before the congregation before touching the sacrament. No, it's not that relevant but ho HO! try to change the system and see how relevant it really is!

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

I was thinking more in line with things in the Gospel Principles manual and For the Strength of Youth.

But I love this wet wipes thing. FWIW, I thought you were a chickster. Perhaps it wasn't the wet wipes they were concerned with when they tackled you at the sacrament table. biggrin

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I AM a "chickster" OKAY? Doesn't mean I can't run up there and grab the wet wipes and yell, "Knock it off!"

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I was thinking more along the line of "For the Strength of Youth". The other stuff is just traditions that people get worked up about. The white shirt rule is another tradition. I personally hate wearing white shirts. They don't look as good on me as blue in my opinion. But I wear white on Sunday because it is the "rule". I prefer a nice light blue with a tie that has some burgandy in it when matched with a dark suit. My other personal tradition is basketball. I can't stand playing basketball and am looked at like a poriah in my ward. My brother doesn't play either. It's not that we can't play. We are both over 6 ft and athletic. We just don't like it. But we have so many transplants from Zion here that the elder's quorum members have weekly basketball at the church. I see basketball as a ghetto/gangster sport here because most kids who play anymore seem to be from inner cities. But folks that come from the Zion belt have a different view of it. So the weekly basketball continues and I lift weights or run and take the askew looks. I even had a couple bishopric members from the Zion belt actually wonder why basketball wasn't a bigger thing in our ward, as if something was wrong with us. I think scrapbooking is becoming one of those annoying traditions. Sisters in the ward are expected to love it. When a few don't then they are looked at as being somehow outside of the mainstream of the church in some cases.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Seeeeee? Those are all "Church" standards! Basketball, scrapbooking.... Don't you get it? They make you think it's part of the CHURCH. It's AT the ChURCH. It's part of a CHURCH activity. They announce it in CHURCH... Only CHURCH people are there...

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Cocobeem wrote:

Basketball.... Only CHURCH people are there...

Our old ward used to have non-member ringers on the basketball teams. This behavior was encouraged as "missionary work" but it was about winning really.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Yeah, I thought of that after I wrote it... lots of people show up for basketball, really....

But sheesh! It's on the flippin' back of the program! It's CHURCH, CHURCH, CHURCH.

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

At my ward:

Every Bishopric meeting I attended had at least someone in a non-white shirt.

We were widely known as having the highest percentage of bearded priesthood holders in the stake.

We never had scrapbooking RS events. We are having an RS dog training event.

The ward clerk went on some Christian fellowshipping brotherhood campout thing, the Exec Sec attended a few "are Mormons Christian" classes to see what the big whoop was, and several ward members do bible study with various Christian groups.

This stuff just doesn't seem to be very "church standards"-ish. More like "cultural norms".

LM
(Honestly, I'm trying to get around to answer Ray's original questions)

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Liar. You're just revelling in your nonconformist nature... biggrin YOu must conform!!

--Ray

PS> Coco's throwing in a lot of cultural things as "standards"... sure... But Coco's brilliant! Don't you want to join the Church of Coco?

-- Edited by rayb at 14:13, 2007-10-30

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Oh, don't forget that green jello salad!

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
Why can't you just be happy to comment, like everyone else?

Might just as well point out that you dear ray are like the pot calling the kettle black with this comment... I refer you to your OP!!!!!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

You'd almost thought I did that on purpose! But I'd never do such a thing, would I?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

The Church of Coco banned green jell-o back in 1991. Once banned it will never return unless under apocalyptic circumstances.

Oh... and open season for the joining the Church of Coco takes place during Mardi Gras.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

I think people are doing unauthorized Jello salad to keep that particular doctrine alive. In fact, I am sure that President Hinckley authorized that in secret to a select group.

You will need to issue another jello manifesto in a couple of years, but you'll still have to grandfather in the sureptitious salad makers, who will be quietly making jello salad in their homes for the next 40-50 years.

Upon their deaths, we will then insist that we haven't been doing jello salad for 117 years, or whatever, and those other salad makers are not part of the official church of coco.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

and "quietly making jello salad" is NOT, I repeat NOT! a double entendre, intentional or otherwise.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Hoss is right. One more manifesto-- BUT THAT's IT!! Gosh, some practices are harder to give up than others...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Since I'm not of the Church of Coco splinter group, I can continue to make and eat green jello, as well as orange, lemon, strawberry, and any other color / flavor combination the lusts of the natural jello eater seeks. But, we do shun any sort of fruit or vegetable or dairy item incorporated into the jello. It must be pure jello of our own make to be kosher.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Fry Sauce is not doctrine! It is an abomination!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Fry sauce is for the inner circle-ites only!

Cat! Stop this abomination NOW! There is only one pure color of jell-o! And there is no mixing of jell-o's or you know the consequences! Not that the church of coco approves of any of these 'fundamentalist' practices, of course. At least you could be more "quiet" about it!! Sheesh - flaunting it in our faces - trying to make the men jealous, or what?

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Cat Herder wrote:

Since I'm not of the Church of Coco splinter group, I can continue to make and eat green jello, as well as orange, lemon, strawberry, and any other color / flavor combination the lusts of the natural jello eater seeks. But, we do shun any sort of fruit or vegetable or dairy item incorporated into the jello. It must be pure jello of our own make to be kosher.

BURN THE HERETIC!!!!! furious

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Fry sauce is for the body and the belly.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Hey, if you want to rub fry sauce on your body and belly, more power to ya!

We claim the privilege of eating french fries according to the dictates of our own hunger, and allow our children that same privilege... let them eat them when, where, and however they may.

Dyany · Senior Member

the best use for jello: mix the powder with melted marshmallows and melted butter and popped popcorn (or rice crispie cereal if you're old-fashioned). MMM TASTY. And if you do a separate batch of grape (purple) and orange (orange) then it's HALLOWEENY!!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

You jello pagan you!

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Well anyway, I did want to pay lip-service to the actual questions that started this thread, cuz I figure they're important.

If you define "standards of the church" as whatever direct, unequivocal council given us in the Strength of Youth pamphlet, conference talks, and scriptures:

I'm first and foremost a daddy, and can't help but answer all these as they relate to my kids and our home life.

Are you in love with the standards of the church?
Very much so. It is so wonderful to be part of an organization that takes such a clear-cut stand on premarital sex, drugs, crime, violence, etc. I'm one of those people that will still go to church if I ever lose my testimony - because our youth program is a blessing and an aid to me as I try to raise good, healthy kids.

Do you see them as slavery?
Part of the maturing process involves coming to an understanding that part of being human involves wanting something that is not good for you. We're protecting immature kidlings from themselves right now, as we don't allow them to punch each other or eat candy before breakfast, and we do make them go to church and exercize and do service to others.

Depending on the specific thing, my kids seem to be very accepting and enthusiastic about all this "we don't do that here" and "we do that because" stuff. Of course, they're 6 and 3. Come back in 9 years and ask me again, I may have a different answer.

Do they really lead you to happiness?
Most assuredly. It can be argued that happiness can be found in lots of bad places. If Mrs. LM hadn't banned Family Guy, I'd watch it and be happy. But Mrs. LM is wise, and right.

Do you see them as with keeping with our modern society?
Most certainly not, and that is their best point. Because modern society sucks.

Do you wish more people would take them seriously?
Do you wish more people would not take them half so seriously?
I don't care much for most people. But if I did, I'd probably answer yes to both.

LM

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

You pharisees don't seem to like the phrase "or anything like unto it." He/she that is commanded in all things is SLOTHFUL and UNWISE! And worming your way around the "obvious" sins is a slippery slope! As in the "I didn't inhale" rationale.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

hiccups wrote:

Cocobeem wrote:

Basketball.... Only CHURCH people are there...

Our old ward used to have non-member ringers on the basketball teams. This behavior was encouraged as "missionary work" but it was about winning really.

What, kind of like the movie Church Ball? Anyone seen that? It's kind of funny.

Personally, I don't believe the standards of the church are meant to be a hardship they are meant to provide guidance. But I have known people who "practice" the standards on Sunday, and then it turns into lip-service during the week. Aren't we all guilty of that sometimes?

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

Cocobeem wrote:

You pharisees don't seem to like the phrase "or anything like unto it." He/she that is commanded in all things is SLOTHFUL and UNWISE! And worming your way around the "obvious" sins is a slippery slope! As in the "I didn't inhale" rationale.

Ya'll are crazy.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Crazy like a fox!

Janey · Senior Member

I'm still pondering Dyany's revelation about mixing jello with popcorn. That's got to be on par with the three degrees of glory for originality.

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

I just about fell off of the chair I'm sitting in, waiting for Trick or Treaters when I see that the woman who seldom if ever follows a posted link, links us to that famous heretic of the LDS faith, Eugene England. WOW! Splinter group indeed!!

M

(Just funnin)

Mahonri · Senior Bucketkeeper

Janey, for many, many years, my mother would make jello for EVERY Sunday dinner... but not just any jello. Most frequently it was Green Jello with shredded carrotts and shredded cheese. Once in a while she would substitute Orange Jello... but it didn't taste the same. Just thinking about Green Jello w/ carrotts and cheese reminds me of my youth.

Church standard.

Dyany · Senior Member

I didn't even make it up, Janey! Got it from a recipe book from my SIL, and I realized it was just like rice krispy treats with the simple addition of jello powder, so now that's about the only thing I use jello powder for. Would probably work better if I followed the ratios from the original recipe, but I always guess on rice krispy treats so I guess on this too.
Makes me wish I had some jello right now. mmmmm.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Dynie: I agree, Jello makes the best popcorn balls!

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

Mahonri wrote:
...that famous heretic of the LDS faith, Eugene England.

I think he died if full fellowship.

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

Hoss Cartwright wrote:

Mahonri wrote:
...that famous heretic of the LDS faith, Eugene England.
I think he died if full fellowship.

Ok, I'm playing nosy...what are ya'll talking about? Bro. England was one of my professors at BYU.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

He was called on the carpet by Elder McConkie for England's stance that God (as in The Father) knew all things pertaining to our sphere of existence, and that He was learning new things pertaining to greater spheres of existence.

He had a lot of interesting ideas, theologically, some of which we would not consider entirely orthodox.

He did not finish his career at BYU (rather at UVSC), but his membership and fellowship in the church were never in doubt (as far as I know, but I have been wrong before on various and sundry topics).

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

One of his daughters-in-law was the instructor of one of my BYU english classes. She was hilarious. I've heard that he (England) was somewhat of an interesting character, and that perhaps his views sometimes got viewed by administrators and some leaders (all the way up to the Quorum of The Twelve) as somewhere between non-orthodox to something more.

Don't know myself, though. And, the man does not have a wikpedia article about him, so. I haven't found any of his writings I've read easy to digest.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

I took the gist of "Why the church is as true as the gospel" to be:

The church is like a refiner's fire, an organization which has imperfections which MUST exist to refine us into the people we need to be.

I'll toss this in of my own mind:

Life is like a lathe, and we are a big block of wood. The world spins us round and round, but the church (and the members thereof) are like the knife that cuts into our side, knocking off the rough edges, until we are left as a beautiful fruit bowl fit to take our place on the dining table in the Mansion of God.