Janey wrote:

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Nice.  Useless.  Okay, so it's not entirely useless.  It is good to have unequivocal statements on the Church's stance on moral issues.  They may also scare a few brethren into staying away from porn.  But what about everyone else who is already affected by porn?

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Unrelated events bring me to our local LDS social services office every now and then for the past year.  Every month that goes by, there are more and more trucks in the parking lot on nights the pron group meets.  This group has been steadily growing for at least a year.

LM

But coco, if I knew the answers to any of my questions, I would have posted them!

I was in a ward where the bishop brought in a counselor from LDSFS to talk about porn. It was so important he had the YW sub in primary so ALL the adults in the ward could be there. All the counselor said was that porn is extremely addictive and there is absolutely no way to avoid it. It was more of a scare talk than anything I'd heard a priesthood leader say. That was so obviously a bust that the bishop tried again about two months later. Different counselor from a different organization. Same talk. Porn is extremely addictive and awful and there is no way to avoid it. 45 minutes of repeating that same point again and again.

Surely there is something more useful and practical that could be said about porn. But I don't know what it is.

Janey wrote:

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It would be nice if someone could talk about porn in a way that goes beyond, "It's evil.  Don't start.  Stop now."  We need more than that.

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Janey, maybe more folks should try looking at it from the standpoint of personalizing it... what if your spouse came to you and confided in you that he or she had a problem with it... or any other sort of sinful behavior?  What would your reaction be?

There are a lot of people, men and women alike, who seem to have the idea that if there is any character flaw or sin in the other marriage partner  (aside from super serious things), that it is grounds for calling it quits.  And, as you hinted at, maybe it become a bigger flaw because the couple is not acting as helps meet to each other's needs (as in sustaining them and helping them turn weaknesses into strengths with The Lord's help).

Porn is a plague in our modern society, and far easier to get access to than in times past.  There really isn't much more that can be said from the pulpit than what leaders do say about it.  It is evil.  It is wrong.  Don't do it.  Here is the outcome, emotionally and spiritually, if you do.  If you have fallen into the snare, go to your priesthood leader and get out as soon as you can.

Perhaps men, since that is to whom most of the talks are directed to, within the Church do not need to be told more than to avoid the temptation and repent if they have fallen to it.  It is, afterall, a call to repentance and there are means provided for those who chose to repent and come free.

I think perhaps the only thing that has not received nearly the air time regarding the problem is the call for loved ones to respond in a Christlike fashion to those who have stumbled, to do all they can to frankly forgive and help the individual as they go through the repentance process.  But, we don't see Jacob in the Book of Mormon including that sort of discussion in his general call to the Nephites about the chastity problems that had started to become great in his day.

Repentance is a long, sometimes very hard process for this sort of addiction.  Without loving support, with firm, frank, and honest accountability, it is hard for the individual caught in it to have hope of coming free.  Without hope, there is no lasting change.  And without change, there is no true repentance.  And without true repentance, there is no coming free of the addiction.

Excellent post, Janey!

This part of Elder Oaks talk in Oct 2006 popped into my head:


After I gave a general conference talk on the evils of pornography (see "Pornography," Liahona and Ensign, May 2005, 8790), I received many letters from persons burdened with this addiction. Some of these letters were from men who had overcome pornography. One man wrote:

"There are several lessons I've gleaned from my experience coming out of the darkness of a sin that so thoroughly dominates the lives of the people it ensnares: (1) This is a major problem that is unbelievably difficult to overcome. . . . (2) The most important source of support and strength in the repentance process is the Savior. . . . (3) Intense, daily scripture study, regular temple worship, and serious, contemplative participation in the ordinance of the sacrament are all indispensable parts of a true repentance process. This, I assume, is because all of these activities serve to deepen and strengthen one's relationship with the Savior, one's understanding of His atoning sacrifice, and one's faith in His healing power" (letter dated Oct. 24, 2005).

"Come unto me," the Savior said, "and ye shall find rest unto your souls" (Matthew 11:2829). That heavy-laden man turned to the Savior, and so can each of us.

A woman whose marriage was threatened by her husband's addiction to pornography wrote how she stood beside him for five pain-filled years until, as she said, "through the gift of our precious Savior's glorious Atonement and what He taught me about forgiveness, [my husband] finally is freeand so am I." As one who needed no cleansing from sin, but only sought a loved one's deliverance from captivity, she wrote this advice:

"Commune with the Lord. . . . He is your best friend! He knows your pain because He has felt it for you already. He is ready to carry that burden. Trust Him enough to place it at His feet and allow Him to carry it for you. Then you can have your anguish replaced with His peace, in the very depths of your soul" (letter dated Apr. 18, 2005).

He refers to both a talk he gave, and a talk that President Hinckley gave on the same subjects.  I just perused the talks, and yes, the beginning is talking about how bad pornography is.  However, I think this is especially necessary for people to know!  My friends in high school were so excited when they turned 18 to buy porn and cigarettes.  I was the only one who knew any better, and they just called me "the Mormon" and protected me from it.  Not completely though, they'd all talk about how great some of them were and this and that and I was just disgusted and would leave when it got to that point and I realized what they were talking about.  It's a huge problem, and the world is making it so easy to see pornography without even having to try.  There are ads in the paper, on bus stops, on billboards, not to mention what they show on tv, even in the commercials. 

I have always hated swearing.  I feel like there are far better ways to express one's self than by using crude and vulger language.  However, in high school, even though I started out by scolding my friends and even got a few to stop swearing for awhile my freshman year, as the years went on it was everywhere.  Even the teachers were swearing.  I kind of became immune to it.  I never swore, but I didn't notice it or become as offended by it as I once did.  I even started laughing at the jokes that were only funny if you thought swearing was funny.  I still "abhored" swearing, but I wasn't canceling out the words in my head anymore.  I didn't swear, but I could have done more to avoid swearing around me, as my freshman year proved when I had my friends trained to slap their own hands when they swore (behold the power of a short red-head!).  In the latter years of high school, however, I ran into kids who told me that they didn't know the difference between swearing or not.  They didn't know which words they couldn't say around me because they just didn't know.  Their parents say the same words!  and while I'm sure they aren't really that clueless, they were taught that swearing is ok by the example of their parents.  The only place they heard it was wrong was in school.

I think porn is getting that way, so that people won't even notice that they are watching something on tv that they shouldn't be watching.  The media has gotten us so used to seeing it that we aren't appaled as much as we once were.  Each person has their own temptations, and if pornography is a temptation, the world is making it super easy to give in, hardly even realizing they are doing so.  I switched to gmail because half the time on my other emails I was seeing half-naked women, and didn't want to be associated at all with looking at them. 

The people who have lost that little bit of the Spirit because the media has been pecking away at it NEED to have that shocking talk given to really prick their souls with the Spirit.  The greatest motivation toward repentence is to feel the Spirit, and want to draw closer to it.  And first you need to realize that what you have been doing is wrong before you can do anything else about it.

All of the articles and talks I have heard about pornography lead us to where that sin, and any other sin can be cleansed:  The Atonement of Jesus Christ.  They encourage the cleansing power, and how amazing the change will be (one mentioned Alma the Younger's words on repentence.)  Truely partaking of the Atonement and letting the Savior take away your sin is the ONLY way you can repent of it. 

I don't understand why someone would shun another just because they have sinned.  I guess they don't have any friends. 

Alma the Younger was quite the sinner.  Speaking out as loudly as he could against the church.  But his father never gave up on him.  He was always there loving him and supporting him.  I'm sure that Alma knew when he was ready to change that his father would be right there with him to help out.

One of my husband's friends used to be addicted to alcohol.  When he was telling one of the missionaries (sweet!) about his story, one of the Elders told him that his brother is addicted to alcohol.  This wonderful friend, not a member of our church, told the Elder to never give up on or stop loving his brother.  He said that even though it took him until he was pretty much as bad as could be, it always hurt him to see the disappointment in his mother's eyes.  But at the same time, he knew she was just disappointed because she loved him, and that's what helped him to stop (and I believe it was cold turkey, but Matt would know better than I). 

Maybe I'm just a pushover, but I love my friends so much that when they come to me with a problem, I try to support them and help them as much as I can.  I want them to know that no matter what they have at least me and the Lord to help them out with anything.  I've felt hopeless and alone before, and I don't even want to know what it would feel like to be hopeless and alone in sin.  (I must admit that I feel less charitible when people come to me for help, don't do anything that we discussed [and I usually have them come up with the solution by asking questions because I know I don't like it when people tell me what to do], and then come whining back because they are in trouble again.  I guess I like talking to people who come to me more motivated.  I need to work on that.)

Anyway, sorry about that long rambling, but I guess this is a subject I have a lot to say on.  This world is getting so gray, and it's sad that we have to be told what is black and what is white.  For people who are constantly listening to the Spirit, it is easy.  But there are so many of us who miss a day here and there praying or reading the scriptures, and that makes us less able to hear the Spirit.  We are so lucky that we have Prophets and Apostles to keep us intuned, and remind us of what we really know.

Megamatt and glumirk, those are excellent articles. Thank you for bringing them up.

These are good comments. I guess they really can't give a talk about specifics because they don't know the specifics. Some more about standing by people who are trying to repent would be nice. But we do hear lots about forgiveness and unconditional love. I guess this is included in those concepts.

Each person is an individual who is loved by Our Heavenly Father.

Bishops have been given keys of discernment, wisdom and understanding that through prayer can find ways to help each individual come to know who they truly are: that they are loved by Divine parents and that there is a way out of any problem that a member finds themselves in.

The above can be applied to porn as well as any other sin.

i do think talks about the evils of something do help to bolster members, especially leaders in the church, who may be exhausted by the trials of their membership, and may even developed laxed or apathetical attitudes about certain temptations. Given that this talk was given in a priesthood session, I would think it also would serve that purpose.

--Ray

Maybe the general authorities keep giving talks on avoiding porn because there are still people out there who don't realize the dangers of it. Maybe they don't see it as a real problem. Or maybe some people need that constant reminder. Maybe they need that extra strength. I firmly believe if the general authorities feel it is a topic that needs to be continually brought up then obviously it is still a significant problem.

The world's attitude in general is changing regarding the stuff... Believe it or not, (and I know this will shock some of you, so you can take it as my opinion if you want) the membership of the church is sometimes (not you, no, you're your own person... but the other guy) influenced by prevailing attitudes in society.

--Ray

I read a column by a woman who found out her long-term boyfriend was using porn. The author didn't mention any religious affiliation. But she said she sat down with her boyfriend and had a serious talk, asking questions like if he looked at any deviant porn, if he was dissatisfied with their sex life, and so forth. I read a few of the comments. Many of the men were outraged she even cared that her boyfriend used porn. One even commented he'd dump her if she was so insecure that porn use bothered her. Sounded like they thought porn use was just an ordinary fact of life. I don't know if that's always been the world's attitude or not.

I do worry that the Church's polemics are getting so commonplace that we don't take them seriously. It shows up in jokes that "gosh, do you think they'll warn us against porn?" with a laugh because of course they'll warn us against porn. I don't know what the answer is. I'm just worried that the current rhetoric isn't doing much to stem the tide. But I don't know how I'd change it. So I guess I should keep my mouth shut.

Wow, that's a LOT of justification packed into one post.

I agree, there is no justification. I just see lots of reasons why men *do* turn to porn, and I think it would be more productive to think about why they shouldn't, and how to get out of the trap once they're in it.

I find it dangerous to talk about reasons to commit sin, personally. It leads your mind down the wrong roads, and gives the adversary an "in".

I've seen really, really, REALLY good men succomb. Men who I would never imagine in a million years to have that sort of problem. There is a stigma, yes, an unfortunate one that keeps these good men from doing what they need to do to get out of it (because they're perhaps more concerned with silence and hiding than with recovering). It's a tough thing to get out of, yes! But normalizing and otherwise justifying it will not help the problem, in any way. The focus should be first on prevention and avoidance, which is the end we (rightly) hear in conference. In the event that a guy finds himself in the trap of addiction, recovery and then, again, avoidance should be the focus. I guess I don't see the point in giving reasons a guy might turn to porn, and in fact I see how it could be harmful to do such.

There is no normalizing or justifying. Part of overcoming a problem is identifying a cause, in this case porn can be a symptom of something else or simply the problem. Addressing the reasons of why a person turns to porn, drugs, alcohol, adultery or anything else are needful beause if you don't address root causes, then you are not going to solve the problem. The fact is that most men, IMHO, turn to something else when there is an issue, whether stress, marital issues, work, etc. Myself, when I am stressed out I love to play 1st person shooter games or hunt. Those themselves can be just as destructive as porn, granted it is not sexual which I think is the big issue with porn, as I know a man who almost lost his marriage as he turned to excessive hunting to deal with issues.

One of the things talked about in the talk was to get help and counseling, part of which would be to address problems. To say don't look at porn or other things is needed, but often there is more to it. If a guy just likes it, well, he needs to quit, get off of it, substitute something else.

Cocobeem wrote:

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Satan with his cheap transparent lies and counterfeit "feeling alive" cannot hold a candle to real power. Great test for the ignoble, however.

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Coco, could you explain what you mean by this? Specifically, I'm wanting a bit more about what you mean by that second sentence.

There's a lot I would like to say to that, but it will have to keep. I've got an appointment to go scream into my pillow until my head gets right again. And when that doesn't work I will remember to pray. Back later, maybe.

It did come off like I was ticked at you, Coco. I'm not. I'm sorry about that.

Our stake hosted a fireside a year or so ago about pornography.  I'm sorry I don't remember the speaker's name (I have notes from it somewhere around here), but rather than talk about "pornography is bad" or "it's really hard to quit," he instead talked about the brain chemistry involved.  It was fascinating to learn what goes on in the brain, the endorphines involved, and their effects.

He started out talking about how those endorphines (there are 4 of them but I don't remember their names) work within marriage and how they are designed to strengthen the relationship between husband and wife.  They create an emotional bond, cause one to focus exclusively on one's spouse, and, of course, make you feel good.  (As an aside, after hearing that I have wondered if maybe men are more likely to experience the endorphine rush than women and if perhaps that might explain the different value that some men place on sex then some women seem to do--maybe the emotional effects of sex depend to some extent on the presence of those endorphines.  While physical intimacy may cause increased emotional intimacy for one spouse, it may not have much of an effect on the other.)

Then he talked about those endorphines and pornography.  They are present with porn just like would be with sex, and have similar functions, but since there isn't a spouse there the effect is different.  For example, the endorphine that causes one to focus exclusively can cause the porn viewer to "forget their troubles" (quite literally) while they are viewing porn.  It also allows one to view for hours without being aware of the passage of time.

He talked about what he called "mental models," which were essentially habitual thought patterns.  He said that the brain becomes very efficient at performing tasks that we have it perform over and over again.  So, for example, if a guy has "trained" his brain (through porn viewing) to respond a certain way to images of the female body, then it will naturally, automatically respond that way everytime he sees a woman.  (Obviously guys in general are wired to be visually stimulated, but there is a distinct difference between the way a porn addict and a non-porn addict respond to a suggestive image.)

The speaker said that to break a porn addiction one has to change one's mental model.  He said it takes a lot of work, but can definitely be done.  He also runs some kind of program for porn addicts and helps people overcome this problem.  If I could remember his name or the name of his program I would share it.  I'll have to see if I can dig that up later.

One other thing he said was that a big reason why pornography is addicting is that you quickly become accustomed to certain images and they no longer deliver the same endorphine rush.  So in order to get the same effect you have to look at more and more images, and images that are more and more extreme.

Valhalla, thanks for your comments. I believe it is valuable to know the reasons people are attracted to sin. Talking about those reasons is not justifying the behavior. It can be helpful for both the sinner and the person trying to help to know what the motivations are. That holds true for any sin. Reasons don't excuse the behavior, but they may help change the behavior if you can use the reason to change motivations.  Knowing the motivations can also help with avoiding the sin in the first place.  If we talk about motivations, maybe someone would recognize that they're on the edge of doing something they will regret because they recognize those motivations in themselves.

dilbert, that would be great if you could find that man's website. I'd heard the "porn is like a drug" comparison before, but never read anything detailed about it.

-- Edited by Janey at 14:48, 2007-10-12

Jen wrote:

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I guess I don't see the point in giving reasons a guy might turn to porn, and in fact I see how it could be harmful to do such.

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Why?

It is important to know the reasons why a person would turn to or become addicted to porn because in that way one is better able to help the individual overcome the addiction. It is also useful to help prevent someone from looking at or turning to pornography, because if you know the reasons why it happens then you know what warning signs and red flags to look for in case you suspect someone might have a problem with it or in case you want to make sure it doesn't happen.
In this day and age, it's not enough to just say, "Stop it. It's evil. Don't do it." You have to be pro-active in preventing it from happening.

Very interesting, dilbert. Thanks for contributing.

dilbert wrote:

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The solutions he presented were:
Prevention--this included things like shutting down the gateway (sexualized media), internet filtering, and open, non-shaming communication, but also included identifying the motive (the motive for viewing porn, but also the motive of why quit), building intimacy, and what he called "self care."  Self care includes taking care of your spiritual health, emotional health, and physical health.  He said the filtering, etc. won't work without motive, intimacy, and self care.

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I thought your whole post was excellent Dilbert. But I especially appreciate these points you made.


-- Edited by Poncho29 at 16:20, 2007-10-13

Randy wrote:

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Anything to save a buck, I say.

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Personally I really liked your approach Randy...  FWIW... hubby really liked the personal touch of using "Holy Moley" where it can do the MOST good...   You got our attention and vote~!!!

Valhalla wrote:

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I admit that this whole topic gets me, rubs me the wrong way. For every sob story about how porn destroys a home, I can pretty much quarantee that there is another side to the story, it's just that most men don't go and talk to a priesthood authority about it. One evil does not justify another, part of enduring to the end is doing right no matter what.

Frankly, it is a multi-faceted issue.

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This is the key.  Not that most men have, will have, or have had a problem with porn, but for those who do, for what ever reason many don't go and talk to their bishop about it early on and get it resolved before it becomes a serious problem.  Why?  Maybe because they are afraid they will get the same explosive volcanic eruption scale of reaction from their priesthood leader that they do / did from spouse / mother.  They already know it is wrong, and they already feel lower and see themselves as lower than the scum on the bottom of a pond.  Over reaction by those who need to be closest to them is going to drive them further away from having the hope they can come free and repent and lay claim to being cleansed and healed by The Atonement.