Should states impose a mandatory school attendance policy?

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Should states impose a mandatory school attendance policy?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Generally, I think this is probably a good idea. One of my neighbors took a vacation just last week and took her boy out of 7th grade for 5 days. Then they decided to stay longer and so it turned into about 8 days. They routinely plan long weekends and pull their kids out of school. These are not top students, either. Her comment to me was, "I'm the mother and I'm going to plan vacations when I want to plan vacations. Not everyone can go in the summer." Well... I didn't think much of that comment, but ... she's my friend...

If they speak "strongly" about punitive damage, or whatever, I think it's a tactic to let the yayhoos know that they mean business. Hopefully the yayhoo parents will step it up a notch and take things more seriously.

We take school attendance very seriously. My daughter with Lupus missed school while in the hospital for the first time in 4 years. She missed about 3 weeks altogether. I was in constant contact via email with her teacher and the principal. They were more than understanding. This "policy" is not for the families who take school seriously, this is for the goof-offs who really need to do better. In fact, since she's always been a straight-A student, the principal did not make her make up any work and instructed her teacher to give her "her usual" straight-As on the final report card.

I've found school administration to be more than understanding when they feel you are on the same side in your goals - a well-behaved child who actually tries to do well.

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Hey, you non-homeschoolers go right on ahead and pass whatever laws you want. Just make sure you keep your nasty government tendrils out of my home.

So, make sure whatever gets passed is enforced from school attendence records, and NOT from bugging us when we're out in public on a Wednesday afternoon.

LM

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Yeah you're right Coco. I know that this policy was aimed at the yahoos who take their kids out of school for vacations all the time or for some other nonsense. It is a problem in our area. Despite the fact our district has Christmas break, winter break, spring break and summer break some parents want to take vacations when it's convenient for them.
I just wanted to make sure that children who are legitimately ill are not penalized for missing school. Some teachers are more understanding than others. I just couldn't figure out why her teacher was calling last week despite the fact they knew she was in the hospital. Cat said she didn't sound very understanding and was rather nosy.
Last January when this same child had pneumonia her teacher at the time told me not to send her back until she had her strength back because she didn't want her to take a turn for the worse.

Oh and BTW Loudmouth I don't remember voting to pass such a law. I don't even think it is a law.
The principal called it "policy." I think they'd be hard-pressed to get such a law passed with the number of people who home-school and even people who don't.

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 10:51, 2007-10-09

coolcucumbers · Senior Member

Our school is very uptight about missed days. It is really frustrating to deal with them sometimes. My kids do not miss very many days either. But I still get the runaround about it when they do.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Note: I have not found the written policy about the calls and all that, but at the high school level they do make missing school punitive, in mandatory lowering of grades in classes.

Basic Policy

A little more detail Policy

High School Policy

Something about this all just chafes me the wrong way.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

One thing I try to make clear upfront with my kids' teachers is that we are on the same team. If there is ANY horsing around or misbehavior I absolutely want to know about it. I make it clear that I am more than willing to deal with any problems that may arise. I let the teacher know they have my respect for the thankless job they do day in and day out. I may even say, "Cocokid is really enjoying your class so far." Even if they aren't - it just gets you off on the right foot, I think.

And I've tried to teach my kids that things are not always wonderful. That's just how life is. Sometimes school is tedious and bo-ring and you have a teacher that you don't particularly bond with. So? Sometimes people grow up to have less than exciting jobs, maybe they're even bo-ring and you may have a boss that you don't really like. That's part of life. It's not just about laughing and be entertained all day long. In other words, if there's some disagreement with school administration I try to work through it together rather than just crushing them. I don't think it teaches the kids to deal with life very well. TOTAL Coco OPINION.

I also think generally the public schools try to do their best. If these policies can possibly help the yayhoos (who are also permanently part of my kids' peer group) to do better or take their lives more seriously, I think that's good.

Nothing against homeschoolers AT ALL, but don't you think if the public school kids were "better"... this would be a good thing?

Janey · Senior Member

That's frustrating to get caught in a rule that's meant to apply to someone else. This is just advice, which you can disregard, but if you are worried about a future school not being nice about her absences, write a polite but firm letter explaining the situation and describing exactly what you want to have happen. Do you want them not to call when she misses school? Do you want them to call but be aware she's probably been sick? Do you want the teacher to send her work home, or will you pick it up? Will you call the attendance office and tell them she's sick when she's absent?

Include something from the doctor if you can. Phone calls are nice if they take care of the problem. But I've had several issues (one with school, others were just general stuff) that got frustrating after several phone calls. One letter solved them, and solved them fast! Adding a cc to a district person, such as the admin in charge of attendance, is good too. With the letter to the school, we actually got a call from the district person the day after we faxed the letter, making sure the local school was helping us out. The local school had contacted us the day they got the letter! After four or five phone calls over a couple months just got us the runaround, one letter had them falling over themselves to do what we asked. (We were asking the school to test my niece for learning disabilities.)

There's just something about being serious enough to put your concerns in writing that tells people to solve your problem and not just put you on hold and hope someone else will take your call. They could put the letter in your daughter's file, and when they do call, you can tell them it's there.

Anyway, I'm sorry your daughter is sick. Poor kid.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

It's funny to me that a state with such relaxed home school law gets so wound up about public school attendence.

If you homeschool your kids in Michigan, you don't have to notify anyone and you don't even have to take attendence.

I agree about putting things in writing. It puts the school on notice and does lead to action. It also covers your own behind.

And Cat, none of those links worked for me, btw.

-- Edited by hiccups at 11:58, 2007-10-09

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Out here in California we already have rules about missed days. Miss too many (I forget the exact number) and you have to repeat the grade over again. Our school offers a Saturday session to help the chronic offenders make up their time. The school recieves money from the state based on the number of kids in school each day. When a kid is absent they get $0 for that child so they are highly motivated to get the kids in school. The Saturday session makes up for a lost day so even a kid that has only missed a day or two will get a letter in the mail saying he/she has to attend. Most parents ignore them anyway. Also, parents who are basically lax and let kids play hookie can be prosecuted. Usually you have to really mess up and be a screwed up parent or have a really rebellious high schooler. I have a lady that works for me who had to go to court because her 15-16 year old wasn't going to school. She would take him to school and drop him off but he would just wait until she drove off and leave. The judge at least agreed that there was not much more she could have done and put him into a boot camp program.

In our school district, if the child attends part of the day it is counted as a full day so dentist and doctors appointments usually don't result in an absense. As long as they were there for roll call in the morning they count it.

I'm one of those bad parents that will take my kid out of school occassionally. I will take them on a special daddy time day about once per school year to a movie or something. I also occassionally take them out early on a Friday or miss a couple of days for a family trip. They do pretty well in school so their grades will be fine. I'm taking my 11 year old out of school next week to finish her open water dives for her scuba certification. Scuba certifications can be used for college credit and she now knows more about science, physics, and medicine than any other student at her school because of the course so I consider it an educational opportunity. I am very proud of her. In the classroom portion of the class she beat all the adults on her final 50 question exam and did better in the pool than some of them also. But I digress. Maybe she'll grow up to be a marine biologist or military dive officer.

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Thinking back, my high school wood shop class was right after lunch, and staffed by an ex-retiree they dragged back into service against his will. Needless to say, that year I went home for lunch a bunch, and ended up with triple-digit tardy/absent numbers in that guy's class.

With such a policy in place, I surely would have received the F that I so richly deserved. As it was, I got solid C's, I guess because the teacher thought I was someone else who did something in class.

LM

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

sorry about the links... guess they don't want people downloading the districts policies...

If you really want to find them, just cut off everything in the address past the first slash, and then search the menu for them... and then you have to dig through to the student policies and then find the policies on attendance...

They are pdf files...

So, to save you that hassle, try this
http://www.rochester.k12.mi.us/index.aspx?folder=9768&name=5000%20-%20Students

Then look for policy 5210 (four of them actually).

-- Edited by Cat Herder at 12:44, 2007-10-09

arbilad · Head Chef

I am against mandatory school attendance. And to answer Coco's question, yes, it would be a wonderful thing if the public schools were better. I think that doing away with mandatory attendance entirely would go a long way towards solving the problem.
Think about it this way; wouldn't it be wonderful if schools actually had to be run in a way that made learning interesting to kids? If they had to actually compete to get their money from the state, you can bet they'd go all out to find ways to make learning fun. Sure, you're going to get a percentage of kids that won't attend no matter how interesting they make it, but aren't those the same kids who ditch anyway? As Jason pointed out, you just can't force the kid to go. Unless you make the school a prison, they can just walk away.
And what will happen if they turn the screws really tight to force kids to attend? Parents who would rather not deal with mandatory attendance will start claiming that they "homeschool" their kids. That will mean greater government overview of homeschooling, which no homeschooler I know wants. The vast majority of homeschoolers are good, responsible parents who make sure that their kids learn. But this nonsense that Poncho is talking about will force many of those irresponsible parents from the school system into homeschooling.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

...What Arbi said. Ditto. I believe school attendance is important and is serious business, but I don't think what they are instituting will solve the problem.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Alright. So there is no regulations on attendance whatsoever. Where do you see this scenario going and how does it exactly "go a long way in solving the problem"? You don't see crime increasing as a result? You don't see illiteracy increasing as a result? You don't see welfare increasing as a result?

Hello! Where's roper?

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Let me rephrase this... I agree "in part" to what Arbi said. Of course there should be an attendance policy! But I don't agree with the way our district has chosen to enforce it. I think it's going to cause more problems than solve them. Too many parents (and kids) have adopted the attitude of "I'm going to do what I want no matter what you say. You can't tell me what to do."
(Coco's neighbor and her take on her vacations and Jason's employee's son come to mind).
Since this is a newly adopted policy we'll see how it plays out, but considering the way I've seen some parents react to issues that are trivial and far less important than this, it's bound to cause a ruckus.
Frankly, I don't know what the solution is.

Ros · Senior Member

In first grade, my son had surgery that left him with a PIC (from the heart to the arm) line for antibiotic administration every 4 hours. He had this for a month. It was two weeks before Christmas break.

I went to the teacher and explained things - telling her that he was fine to come to school but could not go out to recess and she had to carry a clamp around in case his line got broken or pulled she could prevent him from bleeding to death.

She asked us to please keep him home.

So...in January, when we recieved the "Your child has missed too many days and if you don't stop it right now we will have to take action. Sign this and return it to the school so we know you understand how much trouble your in" letter. We threw it away.

The next time I was in the office and ran into the principle, I said "BTW, I got your letter...I threw it away."

He was speechless. Partly because I was so blatantly disregarding their empty threats and partly because he knew that I knew they were empty threats.

I've never had a problem since. And I will take my kid out if there is a good reason - some vacations count as good reasons.

However - the rest of the time, I'm a helicopter mom who makes sure the kid is keeping up (last vacation, he finished ALL his work before he left - he had nothing to catch up on) so I'm not the one they make those rules for.

There is (or should be) a difference between policy and law. If the kid did the work and passed the tests, they shouldn't fail. Then again, I have college classes that rely on attendance as well...so...

whatever.....

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm not a fan of attendance grades... in college for my graduate degree, I was working fulltime, teaching for the department, and taking classes. I had to take a vocational seminar class that met once a week for an hour to listen to professors of the department talk about what you could do to be a professional engineer.

I missed most of the rolecalls due to office hours, or I would forget, or whatever... it was one credit. I still have an F on my transcript... and yet they let me graduate. Kind of annoying, considering that I actually essentially presented one of the lectures to that class, because the presenting professor was my boss...

--Ray

arbilad · Head Chef

Cocobeem wrote:

Alright. So there is no regulations on attendance whatsoever. Where do you see this scenario going and how does it exactly "go a long way in solving the problem"? You don't see crime increasing as a result? You don't see illiteracy increasing as a result? You don't see welfare increasing as a result?

Hello! Where's roper?

Coco, you're operating under the false assumption that attendance would plummet if attendance wasn't mandatory. However, I don't think that most parents would stop making their kids go to school just because it wasn't mandatory. What would be the motivation for the parent? Most families are dual income anyway. Those parents would prefer that their kids be babysat at school. Even those homes where the mom stays home don't want the child at home doing nothing. Any homeschool mom will tell you that they have to keep their kids busy for at least 4 hours every day to maintain sanity.

Now, as to those parents who don't care whether their kid attends or not, do you really think that mandatory attendance changes that? Kids who don't want to attend will find a way around their parent's wishes anyway. This is a quote from a Homeschool Legal Defense Association email from back when Colorado raised the mandatory attendance age from 16 to 17.

Raising the compulsory attendance age will not reduce the dropout rate. In fact, the two states with the highest high school completion rates, Maryland at 94.5% and North Dakota at 94.7%, compel attendance only to age 16. The state with the lowest completion rate (Oregon: 75.4%) compels attendance to age 18. (Figures are three-year averages, 1996 through 1998.) Twenty-nine states only require attendance to age 16. Older children unwilling to learn can cause classroom disruptions and even violence, making learning harder for their classmates who truly want to learn.

By eliminating mandatory attendance, we would help solve the problem by helping a higher percentage of those who cannot be forced now to attend school to actually want to be at school. Schools would have to become places where learning was fun. The child who cannot be forced to attend school may be influenced to want to be there. High school is a traumatic experience for many teenagers.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Schools care about attendance for one reason, money. They don't care if your child has a valid reason or not, your child not being at school affects the amount of money the schools receive.

Schools funding is most often based on numbers at school

Go to Google and type in school attendance and funding or something like that.

One example:
http://www.powayusd.com/news/attendance.htm

arbilad · Head Chef

Thanks for the link, Valhalla.
My point basically breaks down to the fact that schools right now are basically a monopoly. If they had to compete for business, they'd be forced to make improvements. How many businesses can require their customers to spend money with them by law? Ok, there are businesses like that, but they're universally unpleasant to deal with. Schools require students, by law, to show up, which is how they get their funding. They could require students to do outlandish stuff, like read books bout gay princes, and the students are still required to show up. There would be vast improvement if schools had to work to make people want to show up, and thus give them funding.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Not only is your child required to attend but if the school is a miserable failure but you live in that district you are out of luck. There is no school choice. It's like buying bread in a communist market. You get one market, one price, one choice, and the bread is bad you can come back next week and try again with the same old choices. Although I am not currently a homeschooler I fervently support and will defend that option for you homeschoolers because one of these days I might have to go that route myself due to state mandated homosexual indoctrination courses starting in kindergarten the would have been passed into law here in California if not for the governator actually vetoeing the darn thing.

arbilad · Head Chef

To be fair, Colorado has school choice. You have to sign up early, and people living in that school's district get priority for space, but you can choose schools.

arbilad · Head Chef

Thanks for the support, Jason. I also support parents who choose to send their kids to school. If you have thought and prayed about it and that is the best choice for your kid, more power to you.
You've helped me think of an example. While I'm sure that it would improve your business if farmers in a certain geographic area were required by law to go to you for tractor parts, repair, and new tractors, it would, in the end, be a very bad idea.

-- Edited by arbilad at 12:38, 2007-10-10

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Yea, there would be no reason for me to actually compete for their business by trying to offer them a better service than they can get elsewhere. I know of a brand that has very strict territory agreements with penalties if you sell a piece of equipment to someone even 20 feet outside of the territory. The barriers and penalties make it very difficult and the people that suffer long term are the customers themselves who get mad because they don't have choice. I had a customer in a few hours drive away that was so fed up with his local service he was buying his equipment parts from us and paying the extra freight to have them shipped directly to them. The dealer there complained and the manufacturer ended their direct shipment program because of this. They guy still buys the parts from us but they have to actually come into our location first. He is paying significantly more because of the extra freight but he just couldn't get good service. The free market in many cases can fix problems in our schools and do it for a fraction of the cost. If everyone had complete school choice the bad schools would close down for lack of students.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

arbilad wrote:

Coco, you're operating under the false assumption that attendance would plummet if attendance wasn't mandatory. However, I don't think that most parents would stop making their kids go to school just because it wasn't mandatory. What would be the motivation for the parent?

I don't think these parents are motivated by much. But I think if something came up and there was *no* attendance policy in place (sort of like those classes where you just have to show up for the final and that's your entire grade)... they wouldn't think twice about skipping school. I don't think "free babysitting" is as big a factor. At least not at the high school level.

Now, as to those parents who don't care whether their kid attends or not, do you really think that mandatory attendance changes that?

I think some people act due to external reasons. Some kids don't care whether stealing is right or wrong, but the laws are what keeps them in line.

Kids who don't want to attend will find a way around their parent's wishes anyway. This is a quote from a Homeschool Legal Defense Association email from back when Colorado raised the mandatory attendance age from 16 to 17.

Raising the compulsory attendance age will not reduce the dropout rate. In fact, the two states with the highest high school completion rates, Maryland at 94.5% and North Dakota at 94.7%, compel attendance only to age 16. The state with the lowest completion rate (Oregon: 75.4%) compels attendance to age 18. (Figures are three-year averages, 1996 through 1998.) Twenty-nine states only require attendance to age 16. Older children unwilling to learn can cause classroom disruptions and even violence, making learning harder for their classmates who truly want to learn.
By eliminating mandatory attendance, we would help solve the problem by helping a higher percentage of those who cannot be forced now to attend school to actually want to be at school.

Like a reverse psychology approach? See? You don't need to go to school at all... and watch them run to school?

Schools would have to become places where learning was fun. The child who cannot be forced to attend school may be influenced to want to be there. High school is a traumatic experience for many teenagers.

It would be nice if all learning were fun. It would be nice if all our jobs were fun. It would be especially nice if housework were fun. But... I guess life is not all fun, is it?

I appreciate your comments and totally respect the whole homeschooling thing, by the way.

I guess I also look at it like this (and I tell my kids this) ... We are not just competing against the other kids in the district or the state or even the country. We're competing against China and India. The kids in China go to school 6 days a week, 8 hours a day. Our Chinese friend who got an EE degree at the U of U said it was basically like high school. Something as miniscule as SHOWING UP to school here, where there's what- 186 days a year or something? seems like - wow, if you can't even do that, forget it.

-- Edited by Cocobeem at 13:05, 2007-10-10

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Valhalla wrote:

Schools care about attendance for one reason, money. They don't care if your child has a valid reason or not, your child not being at school affects the amount of money the schools receive.

Schools funding is most often based on numbers at school

Unfortunately I think this is the main motivating factor for schools. At least in our area.
The more kids that show up the more money they get.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

Cocobeem makes some good points. I'm not going to say for sure whether I am for or against mandatory school attendance but I lean towards for. I do believe in choice as long as that choice does not cause others to suffer. Society often suffers when someone does not get an education because often that person has to be supported by society.

There should be choices for education from different schools that perform to homeschool but should there be a choice to get no education? Some parents out of neglect and complacency would make that choice to their child's detriment. I do believe some take their kids to school just because the have to.

I'm not against home schooling but many are claiming to do it when they are not or are not doing it adequately (from personal observance). How should that kind of problem be remedied? Should it just be allowed to happen? What about the costs to society for the uneducated or poorly educated?

TitusTodd · Senior Member

The more kids that show up the more money they get.

The more people that show up to sacrament meeting the more money the ward gets. Is that wrong?

Funding is based on attendance - how else should it be based? That does not necessarily mean they don't care about the quality of education being provided for the sake of numbers because often funding and other consequences exist if they do not provide the proper education (currently determined by testing).

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

TitusTodd wrote:

The more kids that show up the more money they get.

The more people that show up to sacrament meeting the more money the ward gets. Is that wrong?

Funding is based on attendance - how else should it be based? That does not necessarily mean they don't care about the quality of education being provided for the sake of numbers because often funding and other consequences exist if they do not provide the proper education (currently determined by testing).

I'm not saying its wrong and schools need money to function, but I don't feel they should take punitive action by lowering students grades and such if a child has less than stellar attendance. Particularly if it's health related.
From what we have seen that at least in the high school level around here, it doesn't matter if the absence is excused they will start lowering a student's grades by a whole letter grade depending on how much the child missed. It is possible to restore the child's grade but only if you provide extensive documentation from doctor's and hospital's etc. first. And you have to take it up with each and every individual teacher the student has.
We had another daughter several years ago who missed alot of school in middle school because of an extended illness and she was in and out of the hospital as well. Some of her teachers were understanding and some weren't. She had to meet with a learning consultant and she had to attend Saturday school for awhile as well. And this was before this new policy was in place.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

From what we have seen that at least in the high school level around here, it doesn't matter if the absence is excused they will start lowering a student's grades by a whole letter grade depending on how much the child missed.

I haven't seen anything approaching that around here. It is hard to imagine a school district going to such levels just to assure a few students with illegitimate health problems attend unless it is more than a few students - enough to cause budgetary concerns. To clarify, I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it is hard for me to imagine. That would be a waste of resources both in time and money that would negate what additional funding they may be receiving from the additional kids attending (if they are even achieving that result).

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Poncho29 wrote:

From what we have seen that at least in the high school level around here, it doesn't matter if the absence is excused they will start lowering a student's grades by a whole letter grade depending on how much the child missed. It is possible to restore the child's grade but only if you provide extensive documentation from doctor's and hospital's etc. first. And you have to take it up with each and every individual teacher the student has.
We had another daughter several years ago who missed alot of school in middle school because of an extended illness and she was in and out of the hospital as well. Some of her teachers were understanding and some weren't. She had to meet with a learning consultant and she had to attend Saturday school for awhile as well. And this was before this new policy was in place.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see anything overly burdensome about this. You show Dr.'s note and everything's kosh. You go to school on a Saturday - big whoop. Why not just teach the kid it's *OKAY* to work through the policies, you respect what they are trying to accomplish and it's nothing to throw a fit over?

I'm not sure, but I think homeschooling children need to pass certain tests or something once in a while, don't they? Or is there no follow-up on them at all?

Janey · Senior Member

This is just one anecdote, but I do know of a family where it's the kid who wants to go to school, and mom who wants her to drop out. There's a huge age gap with her kids, and this daughter has basically raised her younger brother. Now mom has a job where the hours are goofy for childcare, and she wants her daughter excused from junior high every afternoon (so she'd only attend mornings) to babysit her brother. The daughter likes school.

I don't know how the situation has resolved, but I imagine a law requiring attendance may have helped keep the daughter in school, and persuaded mom to find other childcare for the boy.

I think attendance policies are a good idea. But they do need to be flexible enough to take health concerns into account.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I know a family that resembles that in my ward too. A number of members in the ward have more or less stepped in to make it clear the daughter should finish her schooling, but it's kinda sad.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Cocobeem wrote:

I'm not sure, but I think homeschooling children need to pass certain tests or something once in a while, don't they? Or is there no follow-up on them at all?

It depends on what state you're homeschooling in. The requirements vary widely. Here in Idaho if you were to homeschool on your own there are no requirements for testing. I wouldn't even have to give notice of intent. (We use a virtual academy that is funded through the public school funds, so we take attendence and do standardized tests.)

However, if you want to make sure your child gets into a good college, you're darned well going to make sure they're ready for their SATs and ACTs.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Well, hopefully we will never be in a real position where we will have to worry about our kids missing too much school due to health reasons. I just remember some of the hassles we went through before and sometimes all it takes is one hard-case of a teacher to make things difficult. It felt like for awhile there that it was all starting up again. Some educators don't seem to care what your child's medical situation is. If only I could make them understand we'd much rather have them healthy and in school than unhealthy and staying home or taking a vacation in the hotel hospital.

Incidentally, I mentioned that my daughter has some follow-up doctor visits here in the near future. I made an appointment for her to see this specialist who is only available one day a week.
The 5th graders in my daughter's school are in the middle of taking some state standardized tests that will take place over the course of several days this week and next. For a minute I was afraid her appointment conflicted with the testing. But it doesn't, it's the week after. Whew! Dodged a bullet there! Didn't want to have to worry about her having to make it up!

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

It scares how hard it can be to get exceptions under such rules. Some children are very prone to illness. The sad thing is that sometimes such children get sent to alternative schools when they are good children. That can be a very dangerous place. I recall a student being injured seriously at such a school. I don't remember if he lived. My recollection was that he was sent to the alternative school due to being ill.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

*bump*

To see if roper will see this thread.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

*bump*

Does roper even care?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Okay, Coco, just for you ;)

I will have difficulty stating this succinctly, because it's tied into so many other issues for me.

This probably sounds weird coming from a teacher, but here goes: I don't agree with mandatory attendance policies because I don't agree with cumpulsory education funded by taxes. In Roper's perfect world, education would be a market enterprise. However...

If taxpayers are compelled to pay for public education, they have the right and responsibility to ensure their dollars are being used for the intended purpose--education. Therefore, it seems only logical that children be compelled to attend school if adults are compelled to pay for it.

Here's how it works in my district: Medical absences are excused with a doctor's note--they don't count. On the second day of an unexcused absence, the school calls the home. On the third day, the office of our district's attorney formally notifies the parents that their child will receive mandatory disenrollment after the fifth day of unexcused absence, and will not be allowed at school until the family clears up the issue with the school attorney . If the family doesn't respond, the child is disenrolled and it becomes a legal issue at that point--violation of compulsory attendance laws.

Don't mess with Texas.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think there's a number of social benefits to enforcing truancy. I think it serves no one to have children out of school just because a parent doesn't care enough to send them--these are the kids that get into trouble...

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I like the idea of the school calling home on the first day the child misses. Seems like I heard a story of a kidnapped child and the mother had no idea the child hadn't even made it to school (child walked) until the school called asking where she was.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I like it when the school calls to find out why my child is absent too. Frankly, it's a good reminder to me that I need to call and report my child's absence. Every now and then I get caught up in things and I forget to call. It also tells me that the school wants to make sure the absence is excused and not automatically giving it an unexcused absence.

arbilad · Head Chef

rayb wrote:

I think there's a number of social benefits to enforcing truancy. I think it serves no one to have children out of school just because a parent doesn't care enough to send them--these are the kids that get into trouble...

--Ray

I think it's incorrect to say that mandatory attendance laws increase attendance. In the statistic I quoted earlier, the states that required attendance for the longest period where also the states with the lowest completion rates. That is, fewer kids finished school (that is, weren't attending classes) in the states where it was mandatory for a wider age group to go. If what you were saying was true, Ray, then the opposite would happen; the more you mandated attendance, the more people would complete school, but it doesn't happen that way. There are fine, upstanding people who never completed high school (I even know one), but generally dropping out makes you less likely to succeed in life.

So, since mandatory attendance doesn't increase attendance rates, it doesn't work. Make the schools compete to have children there.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Yeah, but don't you have to compare those bad attending states to how they themselves were BEFORE the laws were imposed? Maybe they were significantly worse..? Maybe it's actually helping them? I still have a hard time grasping the idea that attendance laws do not increase attendance.

palmon · Senior Member

If a school district is going to have mandatory attendance, then they need to enforce it - quickly and with teeth. The 5 day that Roper mentioned sounds good. Too often there are threats but nothing ever comes of the rules.
If the district does not want to be draconian in their enforcement, then they need to drop the mandatory rules and approach education as a capitalistic enterprise. Put out the best product possible, which is what our schools do not do.

I also think that schools need to realize that not everyone is college bound. Some kids need an education that prepares them to do SOMETHING that they can earn a living with directly after high school. While it is obvious that not all kids go on to higher education, many of the craft classes have been dropped. Why shouldn't a computer geek already have their certifications upon high school graduation?

Back to the problem of ill children being caught up in the rules: yes, there needs to be a way to exempt and insure the education of these kids. But for parents that take their kids out of school not wanting to comply with the attendance requirements? I guess I would tell them that they have 3 choices:
private school, home school or living with the consequences.

In our school district we had an odd situation for a few years. Kids were graduating without being educated. To combat that, the school district instituted a test, to be taken the sophmore year of high school. Each student had 3 chances to pass the test (read: 3 years). If the student still failed the test at the end of the senior year, the student was issued a certificate of attendance. It did not matter what the GPA was - and apparently, there were some with supposedly high GPAs that were not passing the test. On the other end, one young man that we knew decided that since he aced the test on the first try, there was no point going to school any longer. He already passed the criteria for the diploma. It was frustrating for the parents, to say the least. My thought was that instead of a test to get the diploma, the test should be to get into classes other than the basics in high school. Same test, more appropriate consequence.

palmon · Senior Member

One more comment: the problem with truant kids I think is a lot more severe than people realize. I know my state has one of the highest (if not the highest) drop out rates: 40%. While there may be some that drop out because of inability, the vast majority of these kids would have good futures. Heck, some still have good futures.