Grace

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Grace

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

The crappiness is to teach me to turn to God and allow His grace into my life. For me, sometimes right after my life reaches a critical crappiness level is when I most appreciate all that Christ does for me. I also can appreciate that no matter what happenens in my life, God is in control. I'm learning to accept that and trust in it. That's why I need crap in my life.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Yay for crap!

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Having a rough day, Ray?

Yeah, I sure would like it a lot less crappy. The problem is free agency and more often than not the poor use by someone of their agency tends to screw you. God lets these things happen as they do. D&C 122 is a great read on this very thing. I use to wonder where He was when I was getting the short end of the stick. Things have been better, the situations and problems still remain, yet the burden is less. I have had to wade through it for the learning and the experience.

I find that grace tends to come after the hard times, after learning. For me the problems are still there, but burden is lightened by Christ. I can't really explain it, something to be experienced and learned through the Spirit.

For me, though, Grace is that measure that Christ imparts for our falling short, to make up what we cannot make up and pay ourselves. That enormous debt.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I'm starting to think this level of crap, is what God expects of me... and that at a very childish level that I am not willing to acknowledge I'm fighting it... I should just be a big man and face the fact that I need to grow up... and work harder, be more true to the faith, go to bed at night... you'd think I'd learn this by now...

--Ray

glumirk · Senior Member

I think the Atonement is something we spend our whole lives trying to understand. And we never will be able to on this earth. That's the hard part. But we do learn more about it all the time, and those little bits help us be stronger with the next challenge.

The hardest thing for me is that I feel inadequate to accept His help. I always think that I could have done better than I did, so it's my own fault if things don't work out like I would have liked them to. I try so hard to let go of this mindset, but I still haven't been able to fully rid myself of it. I wish there were a way to know that things aren't bad because I didn't work hard enough, or put enough effort into it. I just need to learn how to let the Lord help me get through the "crap".

What I always fall back on is that even though I don't understand everything now, someday I will, and I've just got to give it my best, keep trying to do better, but not get down on myself when I don't do as good as I hoped to have done. Instead of getting down, just get back to work and try harder.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Grace doesn't mean the crap is going to be taken away. It just means that we will be able to deal with the crap, if we let go and let God be in charge of our lives.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Wow, every post contains the word Crap.

Crap happens. We believe that crap happens. We believe that we must prepare to avoid crap, and we believe that when crap does occur, we must endure it as well as we possibly can. We also seek to do our individual part to relieve our fellow brothers and sisters of the crap that occurs in their individual lives, in that we desire to share their burden of the Crap of Life as well as possible. We believe that if we do these things, one day all the Crap of Life will be successfully flushed away and that we will happily enjoy all the joys of life, that is after we have flushed Nitasmile down the commode for writing such utter Crap.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

fear of shiz wrote:

Grace doesn't mean the crap is going to be taken away. It just means that we will be able to deal with the crap, if we let go and let God be in charge of our lives.

BAM!!! Shiz, you hit the nail square on the head. It's taken me several years to get it. Still working on it. The crap does not disappear, Christ bears it for us, remember, He knows exactly what we are experiencing. It is a subtle, almost imperceptible process. I tend to feel that our crap is particularly tailored to us. What I have gone through has nearly burnt me up and out, it was not until I was at the edge of the cliff and looking over it that my burdened eased.

What I found in dealing with my particular issue, is that it is not me, but someone else and in learning what God wants me to learn. What I thought was hell, and wondered why me, that I began to learn. I learned to love others, care about others, have compassion, understanding, charity. What I thought would destroy me, has been an instrument in the hands of the Lord to teach me to become like Him. In fact, honestly just realized it, but is part of what my patriarchal blessing is about. Wow!

Ray, I understand what you are saying, I may not have experienced the exact same things, but the gist is the same. It is about teaching us to be gods. This is a way point in our journey, it's hard to see the sky because of the clouds, but as they clear, it becomes easier to see.

Simply put, His grace was always there, but it took time because I still needed to learn, still am.

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

nitasmile wrote:

Wow, every post contains the word Crap.

Crap happens. We believe that crap happens. We believe that we must prepare to avoid crap, and we believe that when crap does occur, we must endure it as well as we possibly can. We also seek to do our individual part to relieve our fellow brothers and sisters of the crap that occurs in their individual lives, in that we desire to share their burden of the Crap of Life as well as possible. We believe that if we do these things, one day all the Crap of Life will be successfully flushed away and that we will happily enjoy all the joys of life, that is after we have flushed Nitasmile down the commode for writing such utter Crap.

Whoa! This is nita posting this? I'm so impressed! Very funny! Good job, nita!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Get yer boots on, people, cuz here it comes!

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Nita, that was beautiful. :)

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I think I'll wear hip boots. And stand on this chair.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Jen and Beefche, thanks. Yeah that was me but don't know where it came from or why. In retrospect it is embarassing to have written that, but I think it is a combo of the current trials of several friends and me feeling bad that I can't do more to help them, me feeling sick/nauseous yesterday afternoon ( I think from a piece of spoiled cake a patient gave me at work yesterday) and praying to be well enough so I could go do activity days. Luckily being well enough after a visit to a certain throne. Anyway!

Janey · Senior Member

Well, Crap. Nita, don't apologize. It was beautiful crap that you wrote.

This post reminds me of one of my pet peeve pop doctrines, so pardon me while I just run off at the mouth for a moment.

Frequently at church, someone trots out the absolutely stupid idea that "God won't give you more than you can handle." That is such CRAP! CRAP! CRAP! And again I say CRAP!

Ahem.

God will give you more than you can handle so that you will turn to him. If he only gave you what you can handle, then you'd never really need him and would never really surrender to him. But being overwhelmed, while very painful, is also our opportunity to finally accept the gift of God's grace. Mormons, and other self-sufficient people, tend to tell God what kind of help they need, and try to remain in control. God does not want you to remain in control. He wants to be in control. That is the price of grace. And once you start to adjust to powerlessness, you find that grace is really much better than self-sufficiency. The door into grace is getting more than you can handle.

This CRAP pop doctrine has one scripture that is used to back it up. (Notice that there is only one paltry little scripture used to back up the idea that God won't give you more than you can handle. Hmmm, could that be a clue that the idea is not a scriptural idea? Especially since the scripture doesn't say God won't give you more than you can handle?) That scripture is 1 Cor. 10:13, which says:

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Note that the verse is talking about temptation, not about life's trials and tribulations. The way God prepares for you to not succumb to temptation is escape. See that? He won't make you strong enough to stand toe to toe with temptation and spit in its eye. He will let your weak puling self run like a scared rabbit. That's how you escape temptation.

This is obviously not possible with life's trials and tribulations. How many people have been able to escape chronic illness through miraculous healing? Certainly not everyone who has righteously asked for help. How many people have been able to escape the death of a loved one through immediate resurrection? No one that I know outside of a few miracle stories involving Christ. Many of life's trials and tribulations do not have an escape hatch. The only way out is through.

And no where in scripture does it say that God expects you to handle your problems on your own. Nowhere.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Janey,

love it! You stated so well, something I knew, but couldn't quite put my finger on.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

This one could possibly count as another paltry little scripture--

I Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

So, I guess you're still right. We are commanded to be perfect (at least in the JST translation) but step by step He prepares the way for us to accomplish all things. The message, as always, is WITH GOD, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Janey wrote:

Frequently at church, someone trots out the absolutely stupid idea that "God won't give you more than you can handle." That is such CRAP! CRAP! CRAP! And again I say CRAP!

Ahem.

God will give you more than you can handle so that you will turn to him. If he only gave you what you can handle, then you'd never really need him and would never really surrender to him. But being overwhelmed, while very painful, is also our opportunity to finally accept the gift of God's grace. Mormons, and other self-sufficient people, tend to tell God what kind of help they need, and try to remain in control. God does not want you to remain in control. He wants to be in control. That is the price of grace. And once you start to adjust to powerlessness, you find that grace is really much better than self-sufficiency. The door into grace is getting more than you can handle.

This CRAP pop doctrine has one scripture that is used to back it up. (Notice that there is only one paltry little scripture used to back up the idea that God won't give you more than you can handle. Hmmm, could that be a clue that the idea is not a scriptural idea? Especially since the scripture doesn't say God won't give you more than you can handle?) That scripture is 1 Cor. 10:13, which says:

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Note that the verse is talking about temptation, not about life's trials and tribulations. The way God prepares for you to not succumb to temptation is escape. See that? He won't make you strong enough to stand toe to toe with temptation and spit in its eye. He will let your weak puling self run like a scared rabbit. That's how you escape temptation.

This is obviously not possible with life's trials and tribulations. How many people have been able to escape chronic illness through miraculous healing? Certainly not everyone who has righteously asked for help. How many people have been able to escape the death of a loved one through immediate resurrection? No one that I know outside of a few miracle stories involving Christ. Many of life's trials and tribulations do not have an escape hatch. The only way out is through.

And no where in scripture does it say that God expects you to handle your problems on your own. Nowhere.

Thanks for sharing these thoughts, they are great. Truly wise things. I really like what you said if it was easy to handle, we wouldn't need Him, etc- that is so true. If life and its challenges were easy, we wouln't need all the sources for direction that we have in this life. I feel what you wrote should be framed somewhere.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Janey wrote:
God will give you more than you can handle so that you will turn to him. If he only gave you what you can handle, then you'd never really need him and would never really surrender to him. But being overwhelmed, while very painful, is also our opportunity to finally accept the gift of God's grace. Mormons, and other self-sufficient people, tend to tell God what kind of help they need, and try to remain in control. God does not want you to remain in control. He wants to be in control. That is the price of grace. And once you start to adjust to powerlessness, you find that grace is really much better than self-sufficiency. The door into grace is getting more than you can handle.

today... I really needed this. thank you!

Janey · Senior Member

Now if only I could work up the guts to say something like that in Sunday School. Sounds like people need to hear it.

Y'all are wonderful. You'll notice that shiz and Valhalla were making similar points.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Why do we suppose that one who succumbs to a trial, or comes through with a few bumps and bruises has failed in that trial? So often we preconceive how the trials should end, such that even when we're out of them, we don't even know it... we just continue to feel bad about how we're not living up to the fantastic success we expected but never quite reached. I recall the saints that crossed the plains. Did the ones who didn't make it but died along the way, did they fail at the trial set before them?

If anything we should honor them as highly as any other, cuz they believed to the end. God requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and as long as we go out of our trials with His name upon our lips, all our circumstances, no matter how unconventional, unromatic, or awkward the end.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Janey, I did notice... Just that your comment was "exactly", for my circumstances what I needed.

LEVE · Veteran Member

I think it's cuz you wonder why if God gave this great gift, why life can't be less crappy. Rayb, when you get to my age... you'll look back and have more answers than you do now. You'll be grateful for the GRACE of God, and what it's done in your life, and the life of your children and wife. You'll look back with wonderment on how you were so blessed, and with even more wonderment on how you didn't realize it at the time. Sometimes we're just so busy living our lives that we often fail to recognize the hand of the Lord in our every day activities.

Sit and think for a while on what your life would be like without the GRACE of God. I can testify that it would be not so nice... I've see too many families in and out of the Church that I've known without the hand of the Lord resting on their families. For them, it's difficult, frustrating and soulful to the max.

I think of the reproof that was given the Prophet Joseph in Liberty Jail... and am humbled at what a safe, blessed life I've had. I remember at the age of 22 sleeping on floor of the Jail for one night. It was an experience haunted by the history of the place. I wondered if I could have gone through the things that the Prophet Joseph went through and still remain true to the Gospel. The answer came clear as a bell, "NO", and that was enough. I often think back to that night and wonder what I've ever done to merit such blessings as have been showered on me through my life, before and after I was married.

Believe it or not... the time you live in now will be viewed by you in the future as "The good ol' days." Though times get tough, they will get tougher, and with that turn comes more blessings than you'll ever be able to count. Look for them, count them, hold them close, and thank your Heavenly Father for the GRACE he has given you.

-- Edited by LEVE at 07:36, 2007-10-05

-- Edited by LEVE at 07:37, 2007-10-05

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

As I was thinking about the Grace of God and what that means, I read this scripture: John 1:1-15

1 I am the true ^avine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every ^abranch in me that beareth not ^bfruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he ^cpurgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 ^aAbide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the ^avine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without ^bme ye can do nothing.

6 If a man ^aabide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye ^aabide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ^bask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father ^aglorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath ^aloved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye ^akeep my commandments, ye shall abide in my ^blove; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your ^ajoy might be full.

Notice verse 2. If we don't bear fruit, we are taken away. I think that means that if we don't abide by the commandments and make covenants, then we will not be exalted. However, this scripture notes that if we bear fruit....then we are PURGED that we can bring more fruit. All too often, I think I should be rewarded for good behavior. Instead we are promised to be purified--which doesn't sound that pleasant. But then it ties back to being part of the Vine or of Christ. He will help us bear fruit as well as withstand the purging.

Just thought I'd share since this just appeared in my scriptures. I'm sure it wasn't there before...sometimes that happens to me.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Goodness... some of you sisters are having a bout of potty-mouth, aren't ya?

Don't make me have Poncho wash your mouths out with soap now!

{runs shrieking covering his ears "AAAAH! My virgin ears!"}

So, if we are to understand better what the parable is talking about, we should probably get a better idea of what "purging" mean in an agricultural setting. (correct me if I'm wrong any of you agrarian types...)

One definition seems to make sense: "to rid of whatever is impure or undesirable; cleanse; purify." and makes the cross over between tending crops and the spiritual. In crops, think in terms of things like dead heading of flowers. If you cut off the rose or flowers of other types of plants, or pinch off the decorative leaves, you end up getting more blooms. Just as if in an orchard, you get rid off too many apples on a tree, the apples that are left to grow will grow larger and be better quality than if all had been left to mature.

Many times, we are told in the scriptures that The Lord's form of purging each of us is via chastening. In fact, He indicates that it is a sign of His love that He chastens, for without it, repentance can not occur and without repentance He can not forgive. (see D&C 95:1; Hebrews 12:6; Revelations 3:19)

I agree with Janey about the concept within the one scripture about God will not allow us to be tempted above that which we can withstand being misused. I think He also expects us to do our part and not go seeing what our personal limit is, if that makes sense. Don't drive the wheel along the cliff's edge in other words...

I bring that up because I don't think we should assume God will or will not necessarily send more than we can handle as far as adversity goes (or that He "gives" us just exactly what we need as far as our own plate of trials at any given moment). It is probably safer to say He will not stand in the way of adversity happening to us when it is a natural part of life or the result of our own stupidity or a method for Him to chastise us. He's not going to make our lives easier if we overbook ourselves or our children in extracurricular activities or in other manners overextend ourselves. But, He will help (via His Grace) us to see what should be priority, and then gives guidance and counsel on how to get priorities straight... if we go to Him... as Janey aluded to.

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

Cat Herder wrote:

Goodness... some of you sisters are having a bout of potty-mouth, aren't ya? Don't make me have Poncho wash your mouths out with soap now! {runs shrieking covering his ears "AAAAH! My virgin ears!"}

Huh? What are you reading, cat? I didn't see any potty mouth words...unless I'm so immune and not of your exalted thinking and sensitivities. biggrin

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Oh, crap.

beefche · Profuse Pontificator

Gotcha, hiccups. I didn't scroll back far enough...I thought cat was talking about my post, ray's or leve's (although I don't think leve would take kindly being called a woman--ray is used to it).

Janey · Senior Member

rayb wrote:

Why do we suppose that one who succumbs to a trial, or comes through with a few bumps and bruises has failed in that trial? So often we preconceive how the trials should end, such that even when we're out of them, we don't even know it... we just continue to feel bad about how we're not living up to the fantastic success we expected but never quite reached.

That's a really good point. We're so used to hearing stories that end like a story printed in the Ensign or told at Conference that we expect all stories to end like that. I don't know how we'd handle a story about spiritual failure. No, actually I do know. There would be a very uncomfortable silence, and then we'd get back to talking about spiritual success stories. As a group, we don't deal with the bumps and bruises very well. Individually, I think we do better. That's what I like about message boards; they're more individual. But if someone brought up this point in my SS lesson, I can tell you exactly which people would try to correct it and get back to the fantastic successes we all expect.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I think the difference is in the faithfulness. The dead pioneers who never made it to the Valley, I'm assuming died as righteous individuals with their faith and testimony intact. This would not seem to be a failed trial to me. Anymore than modern-day saints suffering through health issues nowadays. Some stay strong - no, usually the strong in faith grow even stronger, don't they? Others are "weeded out" I guess you'd say. The seeds are burnt by the rays of the Sun.

So, I guess I'm not getting the "spiritual failure" point. What do you mean by that? To me, I think of people who lose their faith and give up or begin to fight against the Truth as a spiritual failure. This isn't particularly uplifting to me. Those who have been through terrific life events and have come through with their faith intact... those are the best stories of all, in my opinion.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Then there are stories like Emma Smith, or Oliver Cowdery, or Martin Harris, which we don't really tell very much... Though I find myself sympathizing a LOT with Oliver and for that matter Hiram Page.

--Ray