Taking offense

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Taking offense

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Dude! Like your post is so refreshing!

You have no idea how good it is to hear someone else say this!

If I've never said it before, Roper... you rock!

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Don't apologize for your rant, Roper. You can't control people's reactions, and you certainly can't prevent people from taking offense if they choose to. It is an unfortunate aspect of our society now that giving offense seems to be just about the only thing that is frowned upon, when nobody can avoid giving offense all the time!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Hear, hear!

Walking on eggshells.

Yelling into the pillow and coming back to finish discussion in a decent way.

arbilad · Head Chef

Shiz, you're right. Our society teaches people to be offended at anything and play the victim. As always, I think that this is a corruption of a good principle. Some seventy taught in conference a few years back that we should never speak ill of anyone, even in the privacy of our homes. But I'm really disappointed, for instance, that my high school ditched the indian as its mascot and adopted something else. Using an indian as a mascot wasn't offensive at all. Should people who herd cattle for a living be offended at the Dallas Cowboys? Should murdering thieves be offended at the Buccaneers?
Especially in the political realm, taking offense has been elevated to a high art.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

I agree there comes a point where you just can't please everyone. Communication is two-way. If you've done your best to convey your message and give no offense, then any offense is what the other person takes away on his end. This is something I got from a book--even if two people both speak English, they're never speaking exactly the same language. You still have to do your best to get your message across. Recognizing that the other person has a responsibility, though, doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to communicate kindly. I've seen people intentionally say something offensive and blame the other person for taking offense. None of which applies to you, Roper...I'm just rambling now. So much for meaningful discussion.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Does this mean I should NOT share the "lawyer jokes" that Daughter has been sharing for the last 10 minutes??? Yeah, I better not... I LIKE Janey...

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

It would be really easy for me to say that people shouldn't take offense. My truth, though, is that I do at times. Probably more than most of the other people here. (Not about stuff here really, just in general.) It's one of my many character defects. I did it just yesterday. Ooh, and today I took offense at how someone had the nerve to be driving on the same road as me.

I can really appreciate being tired and needing a breather. I can understand frustration intimately.

Not sure what my point is... just that we're all struggling through this life.

MegaMatt · Veteran Member

An old stake president told me "He who is offended when offense was not intended is a fool. He who is offended when offense WAS intended is also a fool." I think he was quoting Pres Monson now that I think about it.

nitasmile · Senior Member

Mega Matt- Just a friendly FYI, I think that quote might be from Brigham Young, I've heard it before and it was atttibuted to him. Now hope you aren't offended by my sharing this !! :)

arbilad · Head Chef

PollyAnna wrote:

Does this mean I should NOT share the "lawyer jokes" that Daughter has been sharing for the last 10 minutes??? Yeah, I better not... I LIKE Janey...

My brother is a lawyer and collects lawyer jokes.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I mentioned a similar thought in another forum somewhere about how when a person is abused in a certain area of their life, they become hypersensitive to that given topic... and for them they lose their ability to be objective.

I'm seeing this with my brother and the church, and I've told him outright that I see him losing his ability to maintain his intellectual objectivity. Which is ironic, since he tends to pride himself in his academic sophistication--yet ultimately that's what he's lost...

I see this sort of thing with relationships too. Certain people step on another certain people's toes, and instead of forgiving and letting it go, they create in their minds a sort of battle mentaility, where they keep track of who is and isn't on their side. Quite frankly I don't know how some people do this because it can get exhausting.

Just this week, I chatted with a fellow who was very delightful until I mentioned how much I really liked this fellow's dad. Boy did he have "issues" with his dad and he laid it all out there... he stated he could never forgive his dad... I found this interesting because many of his mannerisms, even the way he talked, was almost a spitting image of his dad. I finally said, "You know that's too bad you feel that way, because that's not the man I know. YOu have a lot of mannerisms exactly like him, and I think he's a got a lot of good about him."

The guy was sorta speechless... he stammered for a little while and then started to backpedal a little, stating that he had received many good gifts from his dad, and that his dad had changed over time. I thought it was a good discussion. It surprises me, though when I walk into these situations... most often they're very awkward...

Sometimes my idealism gets me into trouble. I've arranged parties where I've invited people who my wife warned me so and so and such and such didn't get along... and my attitude was, "Well the only way they're gonna burry the hatchet is if they spend time together." and then the party turns into a fiasco... :)

Ah well...

Anyhow rambling... people are interesting...

--Ray

Janey · Senior Member

Ahhhh, lawyer jokes. It was so funny to run into lawyers who were the basis of those jokes. Of course, I was never one.

I don't get offended I don't think. I have a few hot button issues that I spout off about (like you should go to jail if you don't water your lawn) but I don't get huffy and puffy and have hurt feelings if people disagree. And mostly I don't notice if people deliberately try to offend me. I tend to be clueless.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

MegaMatt wrote:
"He who is offended when offense was not intended is a fool. He who is offended when offense WAS intended is also a fool."

And he who intends offense is a jerk.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Janey wrote:
Ahhhh, lawyer jokes.

Okay Janey and Arbi... This one is for you... And please remember that the reason this was soooo funny to my family is because I will someday need a kidney transplant.

A man walking along the beach found a bottle. When he rubbed it, lo and behold, a genie appeared.

"I will grant you three wishes," announced the genie. "But there is one condition. I am a lawyer's genie. That means that for every wish you make, every lawyer in the world gets the wish as well -- only double."

The man thought about this for a while. "For my first wish, I would like ten million dollars," he announced.

Instantly the genie gave him a Swiss bank account number and assured the man that $10,000,000 had been deposited. "But every lawyer in the world has just recieved $20,000,000," the genie said.

"I've always wanted a Ferrari," the man said. "That's my second wish."

Instantly a Ferrari appeared. "But every lawyer in the world has just received two Ferraris," the genie said. "And what is your last wish?"

"Well," said the man, "I've always wanted to donate a kidney...

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Being a lawyer, I am deeply offended. You actually think lawyers are any more greedy than anyone else!

Actually, I am not, I love lawyer jokes, in fact, most lawyers really like lawyer jokes. In fact, I think that being a lawyer has been a great help in not being offended. Being a lawyer, you have to be able to be adversarial at one moment and then not the next. If you take offense, you will have a rough career. Lawyers who are not in control of their emotions make crappy lawyers, and they will get a bad rep in the legal community and other attorneys will avoid working with them as much as possible.

Roper, I too hate the stupid song and dance act to avoid offending someone. I rarely ever offended, usually only if someone is making a direct assault on my wife or children or towards God.

I generally find that if someone is offended at something, they are either overly sensitive or have some past problem/sin/transgression that they have, or lack an understanding that someone else is not aware of an issue that is sensitive to them.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I don't get offended easily either... I was somewhat annoyed the other day when an active member expressed her opinions about another member of the ward, claiming that because said member had publicly expressed a struggle with depression that she shouldn't teach primary. That really bothered me. We'd made a lot of efforts to reach out to the one with depression and this other member without such problems just felt like the other should just get over it. Her opinion offended me.

--Ray

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

What did you do about it?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

My vote is he referred the lady to Ms. Coco's Patented and Proven Mail Order Course on Neighborly Relations...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Teehee...

I'm just wondering if he actually gave her his own opinion, stood up for the person, or just bowed his head and walked away...?

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

rayb wrote:
I mentioned a similar thought in another forum somewhere about how when a person is abused in a certain area of their life, they become hypersensitive to that given topic... and for them they lose their ability to be objective.

I had it explained to me this way: We tend to be more sensitive over issues that we're not sure about. And we especially tend to be sensitive about issues we figure are important, but we're not sure about. And we're the most sensetive about important issues we're not sure about, but we figure we ought to be sure about them, and we feel the need to look and act sure about them.

That seems kind of universally true. What is different for each of us, is how we react to sensetive issues. Our different reactions seem tied into a host of things from self esteem, to past traumas, to how we were raised, to the chemicals our brain squirts into itself, to our beliefs and knowledge of how the world works.

LM

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Don't know that I agree with that hypothesis, LM.

I personally feel that most of the time when folks take offense, regardless of their hyper-sensitivity to the issue, it boils down to pride not being kept in check. I think part of the miracle of The Atonement is that we can condition ourselves to overcome nearly all of the natural tendencies (including the natural man reaction) as the Savior did in everything. Otherwise, we are merely slaves to our mortal being.

Did that make sense?

Organist · Senior Member

I am generally a very tolerant fellow, but was offended once when around Thanksgiving the Morris Center (former dormatory cafeteria at BYU) hung a huge poster depicting a cougar in pilgrim garb with his hand holding up the bloody, decapitated head of an American Indian. The bloodied body lay at his feet.

This was right before the BYU vs Utah football game. The cafeteria director said, "I have a friend who is Indian, and he didn't mind." That doesn't excuse his total lack of taste.

-- Edited by Organist at 17:03, 2007-10-01

zealia · Profuse Pontificator

I am sorry to say that I can be hyper-sensitive and also paranoid. I write poems that help me out such as "A gracious heart is a spacious heart. There is no act so great or small that a gracious heart will not with fondness recall. I am very touched by what many have done to me. And I know it is important for me not to open the floodgates where I am sensitve. Maybe it will be important to say to the correct channels some day. I hope to be able to let go of all things and everythign that I need to let go of. When I think things out, I can see two sides to a lot of the things that really bother me and remember facts that balance things out in different ways that just an emotional recount.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Cat Herder wrote:

I think part of the miracle of The Atonement is that we can condition ourselves to overcome nearly all of the natural tendencies (including the natural man reaction) as the Savior did in everything.

Ok, Cat, could you explain that thought a bit more?

As it's stated, I wonder about the "condition ourselves" part. I tend to believe that natural tendancies are overcome via blessings (which can come through obedience) and grace which makes up for what we lack. Anyway, I cannot, by my own thinking, condition myself to overcome anything, because of the measure of my lacking which is made up by grace.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

hiccups, half of the concept is missing when you only focus on the two words "condition ourselves". The full concept is "part of the miracle of The Atonement is that we can condition ourselves"

In other words, thanks to that grace, which is a gift and debt we can not repay, we can exercise faith with a sure hope that what we do at overcoming the natural man (or woman) in our lifelong process of repentance is not in vain. Somewhere in there, we are still culpable to make the change ourself... our desires, our thoughts, our words, our actions... that is what is up to us to condition and control, as King Benjamin talked about. Only when we act to the point we cross the threshold where the Holy Ghost can work on us to remove the desire to sin and list after evil (as it did with King Lamoni's father), can we have that clean spiritual slate as it were, where we are able to sing the song of redeeming love. But, regardless of how many times we experience that, it doesn't mean we are freed from the responsibility of actually changing ourself. It is an active thing we should each be anxiously engaged in, not a passive response.

Does that make more sense?

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Organist wrote:

I am generally a very tolerant fellow, but was offended once when around Thanksgiving the Morris Center (former dormatory cafeteria at BYU) hung a huge poster depicting a cougar in pilgrim garb with his hand holding up the bloody, decapitated head of an American Indian. The bloodied body lay at his feet.

This was right before the BYU vs Utah football game. The cafeteria director said, "I have a friend who is Indian, and he didn't mind." That doesn't excuse his total lack of taste.

-- Edited by Organist at 17:03, 2007-10-01

Yeah, that is pretty tasteless... probably designed to match the food. Not to mention historically inacurrate... probably to match the fact the bulk of the freshmen eating there hadn't had American Heritage yet...

There were times when the Morris Center in and of itself was just one big offense... of course, what leftovers didn't get eaten there was always rumored to get sent up the hill to the MTC as "fresh"... and I'm pretty sure that next fall after my freshman year I was served some stuff in the MTC guys from my W-Hall dorm floor had carved their initials in...

Did you ever experience a Morbid Center food fight?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Obviously we have a food snob on our hands...

(Coco, the flexible go-with-the-flow girl, didn't mind the Morris Center food at all.)

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Thanks for explaining further, Cat. I still see things rather differently, but I understand what you're saying.

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Cat Herder wrote:
Did that make sense?
...
Does that make more sense?

Makes good sense to me. I'm not sure how much I agree with either your explanation or mine, as a blanket way to describe why all people get offended. Surely, pride is the source of offence for many. Doubt and fear can be the source for others. Organist gives an example of "righteous offense" (for lack of a better term). It seems that getting offended can be a habit, a learned reaction, a defense mechanism, an attempt to manipulate, or it can spring from a deeply held character trait.

Jeez Roper, until I thought about it, I had no idea there were so many sources of eggshells out there. I'm still thinking I like your general take on the matter, that regardless of the source, it can be very frustrating and tiring interacting with The Offended.

LM

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Is there anything wrong with trying generally to be kind, and hoping not to step on feelings? I'm not talking about "walking on eggshells" as has been said, or pandering to every person's specific hangups. Just good, old-fashioned kindness and considerateness (new word! Woohoo!). I think to some degree we have that responsibility. If someone gets offended after we've done our best to be kind people, it is on them. But I don't think we can run through life like bulls in emotional china shops, spouting off whatever we feel like, and not accept responsibility when we're being jerks. (I'm not saying anyone is or is not a jerk, just speaking generally.)

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I SAID, GIT BACK IN YER HOUSE, Jenny!

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

:punches Coco in the face:

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Kindness, charity, and civility-minded restraint rock. Feeling cornered by demands to talk like Sherri from the public affairs office all the time doesn't.

Not that Sherri is a bad person or anything, it's just that her style of communication isn't for everyone.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Who is Sherri?

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

The public affairs lady.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

So, since this lady is having affairs publicly, do we get to impeach her or something?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I know what love is, Jenny.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

:punch:

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I love you Jenny!!!

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

:takes Coco down at the knees and stomps on her head:

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

No offense.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

None taken.

:grabs Jenny by the hair and swings her back into the mudpit:

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

That was unprovoked.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Dish it out, but you can't take it?

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

You're being sensitive.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Just trying to mirror you, Jenny.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Stop projecting your issues.