You are not a Princess...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

You are not a Princess...

Janey · Senior Member

Is he saying not to teach girls they have a lot of potential? Or is he saying not to teach girls that if they're a hyper-feminized version of helpless womanhood, a rich handsome prince will rescue them? Are we talking daughter-of-God-princess or Disney-princess?

So I would say the answer to your question depends on his definition of "princess."

(Woohoo! Did you totally see that lawyerism! "It depends on the definition" Wow! That's what I went to law school to learn! (I'm so funny. I'm probably sleep deprived.))

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
And one of his rules is that "You are not a Princess."

Of course I am not a princess, silly.... My needs are more along the lines of QUEEN (and of course Châtelaine of the Keep... a responsibility passed down to be by birthright as a descendant of Robert the Bruce...)~!!!!!!

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think the rule should be something more like, "You're a Princess, so stop whining and act like it."

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Well that was what bugged me about his rule, is that I think one's definition of princess must be qualified, but then if we teach our children that they are princesses and then all they see in the world of royalty is... well... the world's version of it... is the accolade really worth having?

--Ray

nitasmile · Senior Member

One difference is the world's princess is generally (per stereotype) eliticist, snotty, inconsiderate of others, into glamor, etc. One who would want everyone giving her that special treatment. I think someone who is the princess of Heavenly Father would be a lot different in action and attitude.

It is like the little girl in "The Little PRincess" (movie version) who knows deep inside she is a princess and is good to others, as her dad told her she is a princess, even though she thinks her dad died and the evil person caring for her is so mean to her.

This summer I read a story about Queen Elizabeth II. Seems a photographer suggested she remove her crown for a photo (I think just to seem "more real", etc) Queen was offended w/this and said she wouldn't remove the crown.

RAY- what is the book you talked about?? Sounds like a good book.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

My girls will always be daddy's little princess but that doesn't mean they are spoiled, coddled, or hovered over.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

We are entitled to nothing (more than anyone else is).

We are blessed with much (sometimes we lose sight of that).

Where much is given, much is expected (we are but stewards, of even our own life).

I think these are all the core essentials that need to be considered when teaching about our divine potential. The realization of any portion of our individual potential is wholely and solely dependent upon our individual obedience to the instruction, direction, counsel, and chastisement of our Father.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Ray, kind of interesting you mention this. On that other board on some discussion or other, I mentioned a term I have "LDS Princess", something I have observed in the church. I made some people mad across the river.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Interesting that you should say that as well Valhalla, because I have seen some what I would call LDS Princesses and Princes in our ward over the years.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

How do you define an LDS Princess?

I would agree with nita's definition for princess in general... and would assume that's what the author is trying to say. Sense of entitlement, gets special treatment because she's cuter than the rest or her daddy's richer than the rest, etc...

And the scripture is - Where much is given, much is REQUIRED. Makes it even stronger, huh?

When I heard "you are not a princess" to me that translated into something like, "You are not *more* important than others because of your looks or your clothing or your level of education. The focus is on service and raising others up." In other words, get off yourself.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Well, what I think of when I think of an LDS princess is one who their parents have spoiled already because they cater to them so in turn that person comes to expect everyone else in the ward to do the same and they don't give much in return.

And it is true where much is given, much is required.

The true definition of an LDS princess should be someone who is striving to become Christ-like and who is trying to build up Zion.

coolcucumbers · Senior Member

Poncho my thoughts exactly. I was going to say that Christ was the perfect example of how to be a Prince without being a "Prince/Princess". If we are trying to be like Christ and have Christlike attributes, we will be Princes and Princesses without the negative qualities.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Hey, that's a good definition. Takes more than they give. I like that! The sucking leaches.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I see LDS princesses not so much as the young women, but some married women who have taken things to an extreme. They feel that not only should their husband provide everything, but should then immediately begin babysitting for them so mom can have time or if mom is home alone all day, but expects the husband to begin tackling home problems and kids when her day has been scrapbooking, reading, visiting teaching, etc. One who thinks her righteousness exceeds her husband's and then tries to supplant the husband as head of the home. One who expects to be treated well and placed on a pedestal, but does not do the same for the husband. Husband takes a back seat to kids. Who can't believe her husband would suggest she get a job when finances require it. Etc.

I have seen it with my sisters in law, friends, seen it destroy marriages, but they never accept responsibility or accountability.

There is a male counterpart, one who thinks he is lord and master and expects the household to jump when he speaks, and then puts on a pious face.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I didn't think of those right off Val, but you're right those are PRIMO examples. I've known people like that as well. But heaven forbid you should say anything about it.

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I think a lot of it comes from hearing talks and such about the sanctity of womanhood, daughters of God, etc. Those things are true, but I think some want to apply additional meanings or think it means they are entitled to something because of who they are and are not willing to work for it.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

You really think the Church teachings encourage this - or are they just that way to begin with? Like an only girl in the family or some other thing...?? I know some women like this and it doesn't seem to have much to do with the Church... 'Course, maybe when they hear certain statements or phrases from the Brethren, they focus on those to justify their behavior...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Val: I have noticed that when it comes to holding a regular meeting with priesthood leadership it is a lot harder to hold them with some men because their wives are not willing to share them. Then again, some men just hate meetings and use their wives as a scapegoat. Other men just outright hate meetings. And others are just too busy for them. I don't know that it's a systematic thing in regards to the church, but there may be some cultural elements involved.

I also think the culture in which we live berates anyone who would be a leader or claim "royal" lineage. Catching the Spirit of priesthood has been really tough for me, personally. I find myself wanting to shirk it, and then thinking that I'm being virtuous, rather than indolent. Sometimes our culture gives the natural man in us the excuse to avoid our duty.

--Ray

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

Coco, I don't it is church teachings, I think it is a way in which some interpret it. We are also taught to be partners in our marriages, but some seem to forget that in whether they are a princess or a tyrant. There are women like that in and out of the Church, but those in the Church are the ones who should know better. Frankly, I feel it is more prevalent in the Church than outside of it. I think it is a justification of their behaviour and selfishness, just as it would be for a man to think he has been given the go ahead to rule in the home as opposed to lead with the Spirit.

Ray, I understand what you are saying on the meetings. Meetings drive me nuts. I go, but am still driven nuts!

As to the royal lineage, I still have a hard time grasping that He deliberately reached out and drew me back to Him. I have been fortunate in having been blessed with an attitude of "I don't give a rip what anyone thinks of me, if they don't like me they can kiss my shiny metal bleep!" (been watching too much Futurama) I don't seek meetings and responsibility, they just seem to find me like a homing missile.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I try and skip as many meetings outside the normal block that I can get away with. If meetings are so important to the gospel, why don't I see more of them in the BOM. There are only a couple times where I could identify a meeting in the scriptures. If they had meetings at the same rate that we do, they wouldn't have had time to scratch out the BOM on those darn metal plates.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

I think divine worth and divine potential are important to teach young women and young men, in the right way. Not that they are entitled to everything that the world has to offer, but that they can be everything and have everything that Father in Heaven has to offer. Everything in the world would have our youth (and us!) either believe that their wants and happiness are of utmost importance, or that they are just another face in the crowd without a lot of importance or meaning. Either is tragic, if believed. . .

I want my daughters to know that they are daughters of Heavenly Father, and if the word "princess" creeps in, what of it? As long as they know that all others are daughters and sons of the same Father, and should be treated as such, it's only a good thing.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I suppose my perspective is a bit different. Popular culture specifically tries to destroy the self-worth our little girls in so many ways--if you don't look a certain way, or wear certain fashions, or hang out with certain people, or listen to certain music...you all know the drill. Additionally, I see so many little girls at my school who are desperate for any kind of acknowledgement or recognition that they are someone of worth--I can only imagine the kind of emotional neglect many of them feel at home.

On a regular basis, I try to say something each morning to at least one of them. "Christine, those bows in your hair are really beautiful. You look just like a princess this morning." I use the word "princess" a lot. They're five. It's what they can relate to.

I understand that's in a different spirit, if you will, than the sense of entitlement we've been discussing. I just didn't want the conversation to swing too far the other way.

FTR, my own little girl will always be a princess, and I will always treat her like one, no matter what anybody else says. I haven't forgotten that princesses become queens, and that's what God wants for all of His daughters.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

And I'm suggesting that unless those children grow up understanding what a real princess is like, you're probably not helping them... You have a cultural context in which you filter words you use, like Princess, but is it the same as the one the children of this generation are going to be taught?

I really think we need to define the terms we use as accolades else someone else comes along and redefines them to mean something nefarious.

(I applaud your love of your kids, though... just a bunch of random thoughts throwing out here...)

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
You have a cultural context in which you filter words you use, like Princess, but is it the same as the one the children of this generation are going to be taught?

Their cultural context relates to Disney princesses--they have lunch boxes, little blanket/pillow combinations, etc. And while we as adults can debate the merits of such icons, little girls want to become like them. And when I tell one of my little ones that she looks like a princess, her face beams and she starts the day with a smile, which could have just as easily begun with tears--they're five and we're still in the first month of school. For some of these kids, the only affirming things they hear all day are the things they hear in my class.

Besides, "You are a lovely daughter of God," while much closer to what I truly believe and would like to say, wouldn't be aprropriate in a public school setting. Girls learn all the entitlement crap from thousands of popular culture sources, not from a caring adult using the word "princess."

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Ariel as a Princess.

SnowWhite or Cinderella as a Princess.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Roper wrote:
princesses become queens,

Yep... as I said... My needs are more like a "queen"...

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:

Ariel as a Princess.

SnowWhite or Cinderella as a Princess.

I would go with that. Although I don't know about Snow White, she was kind of a good two shoes.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

She totally jumped in and cleaned out the dwarves' house! Sheesh! And she whistled while she worked, for crying out loud. I love SnowWhite.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

No, the animals did most of the cleaning! But, alright I'll give you that. She's not so bad.
But Ariel? Yeah, she was a naughty, spoiled princess.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I like Kiki. A witch, not a princess, but still, I like her.

Janey · Senior Member

We could really throw cold water on little girls' dreams of princesshood by teaching what being a real genuine princess meant. You were only important if you could be married off to the political advantage of your family, either to cement an alliance or to forestall a war. And then you'd better be able to produce an heir.

Being a real historical princess was probably kind of sucky.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Roper: I understand what you're saying. I just question the longterm value of shallow praise.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Aurora/Briar Rose, people. Now there's a princess!

Janey · Senior Member

When is Disney coming out with a Hispanic princess? They're missing a huge marketing demographic. Pocahontas doesn't count because she had to dress in spandex deerskin instead of a gorgeous silky poofy dress.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
Roper: I understand what you're saying. I just question the longterm value of shallow praise.

I agree. Shallow praise has no value, short or long term. What do you define as shallow praise?

nitasmile · Senior Member

One example (to me) of shallow praise is those who compliment on exterior things- example, I have a coworker who will compliment me on a color of a shirt, etc "oh that looks great on you, etc". Most of her compliments to me involve my shirts. Likewise, she often compliments others on their clothes. Recently when I got compliments on a new hair style (highlighting) or when I lost some weight, initially those were appreciated. But I'd much rather hear sincere compliments on a characteristic or meaningful attribute, those are the things that mean more to me.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

This conversation confirms my theory that people WAAAAAY overthink too many things.

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

Aurora's my favorite too, Shiz. Even though she doesn't really do anything except talk to strangers, get enchanted, and take a nap.

For a married-into-royalty Princess, though, Belle wins every time.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Euphrasie wrote:

Aurora's my favorite too, Shiz. Even though she doesn't really do anything except talk to strangers, get enchanted, and take a nap.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

My meaning of Shallow praise, really has nothing about the intentions of the one who gives it. YOu may feel a deep abiding love and appreciation for the person, but the words or the message sent simply has no lasting meaning... it means nothing... perhaps because it's cliche', or external, or habitual, or something everyone says already, or it may be the result of something you really had nothing to do with (like when someone tells you have the cutest baby... I mean so? Did you really have a lot of control over that? And is someone really gonna say anything about the baby other than that it's cute?) or because the receiver simply doesn't understand what you're saying...

It occurs to me as we've discussed this, that giving deep and meaningful praise is HARD. I think in many ways, simply bothering to learn a person's name, when you don't really have to, for example shows that you're interested in them enough to show interest in them... Another might be pointing out something good a person did... really focusing on the actions of a person, rather than appearances.

Calling a little girl a princess may be complimentary, it depends on the amount of effort that person did to prepare themselves--it may also mean that they have an obsessive compulsive mother, and that all the effort that mom puts into making the daughter look perfect is an annoyance to the child...

okay, so now I'm thinking like a crazy writer... making up all sorts of hypotheticals... So I'm gonna back out quietly so no one gets hurt... :)

--Ray

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

So...regardless of the giver's intentions...and regardless of the receiver's appreciation...some praise is just innately shallow?

Janey · Senior Member

I'd say shallow praise is unearned. Like if you praise everyone in the class for their hard work, and you know that half of them just sat there and made no effort, that's shallow praise. The non-workers know they didn't work, and the workers know that you didn't differentiate their efforts from the lazy folks.

I like compliments about my nice shirt or my cute baby. I don't consider that shallow praise, because I really do have a nice shirt and a cute baby.

It's also just nice conversation.

But if someone compliments me on how hard I work or how much I get done, I know that's shallow praise because I know I do the minimum. It would also be shallow praise if someone praised my physical fitness. I know I don't work out. But if someone says, "thanks for putting so much effort into your Gospel Doctrine lessons," that's not shallow praise because I really do put a lot of effort into those lessons.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I'll take all forms of praise I can get. Shallow, deep, thick, baloney, I really don't care.

"You're a great (Primary) teacher." or "Hey lady, nice gams!" It's all good.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I think thoughtful praise is as difficult to give as a thoughtful gift... perhaps moreso, cuz at least with gifts you can attach a monetary value to the ones that may not be thoughtful... but expensive. :)

--Ray