Okay, the Book of Job happens to be one of my most favoritist books of scripture. I was thinking the other day about the powers that are exhibited in the first part of the story. Specifically the "fire of God is fallen from heaven" (Job 1:16) and the "great wind from the wilderness" (Job 1:19). These would be "natural disasters" I guess you'd call them.
So... can/does Satan control the weather?
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
I think that Satan has the power to do many things within strict bounds that the Lord has set.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
This sounds like a thread that Ray would start. Are you Ray incarnate or something? Or did Ray temporarily jump into your body and is now controlling you? Anyway, that's an interesting question. One associates bad weather with Satan sometimes, but whether he actually controls the weather is something to consider. The scriptures talk of the Lord sending disasters and such, but I have never thought of Satan doing so.
Alrighty then, in an attempt to awaken snoozer thread of my own making, I will say this -
Don't you find it somewhat disconcerting that Satan got HF to give in just by pestering him and accusing him of coddling Job? "Oh, sure... he's righteous alright, but you take him off the heavenly payroll and look what happens! You're buying him off - look at his life!"
Then.... WHAM! Hell is unleashed.
-- Edited by Cocobeem at 08:57, 2007-09-25
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Well, "I think" Father knew JUST who Job was... However the "Unleashed" seems to have very LITTLE memory of anyone or anything regarding heaven... Kind of like my sister... who also grew up in the church but after 50 years inactive doesn't even remember small informational parts of the organization that a small primary child understands... Like "teach me, guide me, walk beside me" isn't a "controlling" command...
I think that God's children who become like him will learn from the way God treats all his children and the freedoms he gives them all... and well... how many of his children learned valuable lessons from Job's poor treatment, or Satan's eagerness to dish it out. It demonstrates what a huge jerk Satan is, as well... ultimately satan dug his own pit and Job's willingness to take it, demonstrates the type of character that ultimately overcomes Satan.
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
ray- That's a good thought, the way you put that. ...The type of character that ultimately overcomes Satan. Interesting how his wife turned against him, too. Silly woman.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
I've been puzzled by the conversation between Heavenly Father and Satan too. I finally read a commentary that suggested an explanation that made sense to me. The Book of Job is considered "wisdom literature" as opposed to history or prophecy. The idea in the commentary was that Job was a real person who was very faithful in the face of a terrible reversal of fortune. He became legendary. Over the years, his story was retold in poetic form, and some literary conventions were added, such as a fictional conversation between God and Satan that sets the stage for everything that follows. His friends were also give stylized roles and dialogue, along with highly symbolic names. I heard a Hebrew scholar give a talk in which he translated the names of Job's friends, and they mean things like "riches are my God" and stuff like that.
Job's story evolved over centuries of oral storytelling and was eventually written down. The core event, Job's faithfulness even though he lost everything, is based on fact. But other things were added to make the story more powerful.
It's like Shakespeare based "Julius Ceasar" on actual fact, but had them all speak in iambic pentameter and added epic speeches that no one actually gave. The epic speech added to the story of Job is the conversation between God and Satan.
Anyway, it was just an idea that made sense to me. YMMV.
See, I was wondering about the history of this book - how we got it, who authored it, etc... Was the whole conversation speculation? Job was unapprised of it, right?
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Unleashed=the adversary=S***n... I don't even like to say his name much... (I am always looking for other ways to refer to him...) It makes it so much easier to ignore his influence, for me!!!!
Where did that saying come from? Is it a function of you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours secret combinations or what?
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"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
there are varying schools of thought on Job, but Janey's right... the prevailing theory, anywhoooooo... is that the Book of Job is a made up tale by someone attempting to teach precepts... like it's a parable or something... though many accede it may be based loosely upon a historical figure and framed with what was thought to be a decent explanation about God and Satan's little conversations.
IMO, the temple teaches us a way to view the Book of Job that your typical Bible Scholar won't necessarily get...
--Ray
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I'm not slow; I'm special. (Don't take it personally, everyone finds me offensive. Yet somehow I manage to live with myself.)
there are varying schools of thought on Job, but Janey's right... the prevailing theory, anywhoooooo... is that the Book of Job is a made up tale by someone attempting to teach precepts... like it's a parable or something... though many accede it may be based loosely upon a historical figure and framed with what was thought to be a decent explanation about God and Satan's little conversations.
IMO, the temple teaches us a way to view the Book of Job that your typical Bible Scholar won't necessarily get...
--Ray
The church teaches, though, that the events in the book of Job are real. The writing may be stylized, but the events are real. As one GA put it, when the Lord is comforting Joseph Smith by comparing his trials to those of Job, it would be poor comfort if He were comparing Joseph's trials to something only loosely based on the truth.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
BTW, I have no problem picturing the adversary trying to convince the Lord to temporarily relax the bounds that He has set on the adversary's activities. The devil could really have thought that in this case he could really bring Job down if only he was allowed more power over Job. Each time, having failed, he would ask for more, thinking that this time it would work. The Lord kept allowing it, up to a point, because that was what was needed for Job in order for him to grow. But neither did He want to relax the restrictions all at once, even though He knew eventually where it would lead.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! - Samuel Adams
Either way is fine. I do think Job was a real person, and the basics of what he went through really happened. Maybe the storyteller tweaked the timing (the messengers with the bad news all show up just as the previous one finished speaking, etc.) and poeticized the conversations. I do have a problem with the idea of God and Satan having a face to face conversation, but I don't think it detracts from Job's faithfulness to assume that conversation didn't actually take place. Whatever the reason behind all of his trials, he was incredibly faithful. But if others believe God and Satan really did bargain about Job, that's fine too.
As one GA put it, when the Lord is comforting Joseph Smith by comparing his trials to those of Job, it would be poor comfort if He were comparing Joseph's trials to something only loosely based on the truth.
Why? Don't people turn to semi-mythological or fictional stories for encouragement? (I am not taking a position on Job, btw) If someone said I had the wit of Falstaff or the perceptiveness of Hamlet, I'd be flattered. If someone used the example of Aragorn rallying the men of Gondor before the walls of Mordor, I'd be inspired. If somebody said, "hey, it could be worse, you could be like Harry at the Dursley's", I'd be heartened...
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I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.
As one GA put it, when the Lord is comforting Joseph Smith by comparing his trials to those of Job, it would be poor comfort if He were comparing Joseph's trials to something only loosely based on the truth.
Why? Don't people turn to semi-mythological or fictional stories for encouragement?
I have to disagree there.
People turn to and adhere to truth when they seek lasting encouragement and comfort.
Winston Churchill was not mythological when he was looked to for encouragement by the British during WWII when he uttered the following words: "We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."
Ronald Reagon was not mythological to millions and millions of people when he gave this blunt open call to the USSR to end the Cold War: "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
And Elder Bruce R. McConkie was not mythological in the sharing of his final public testimony, which has been strengthening and comforting to untold millions (in and out of the Church): "I am one of his Witnesses, and in the coming day I will feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears. But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, that he is our Saviour and Redeemer, and that Salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way."
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
I didn't say it had to be one or the other. I just was saying that to be inspiring, a story does not have to be perfectly factual. The story of George Washington and the Cherry tree was used for many years as an example of his integrity. Was it factual? No. Was it inspirational? In its way.
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I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.
See... that's what I was wondering... who's the author of the book of Job? It's so different than most OT books... Guess I'll have to research that now... :sigh:
And I'm going to agree that for *me personally* a fictional character or situation just doesn't cut it when trials come. Hey! At least you're not as bad off as Romeo and Juliet! Yeah, thanks a lot.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
I have heard D&C 121:10 used as evidence that Job was a real person, but I don't really find that evidence compelling. It is one thing to say "The story of Job would be more meaningful to me if it were real than if it were just a story." It is quite another thing to say "God would never have referred to Job in that revelation to Joseph Smith if Job weren't real." I think God could have used the story of Job to illustrate his point whether or not it was the story of an actual man. So to me D&C 121:10 isn't conclusive on this point.
On the other hand, in Ezekiel 14:12-14 it says:
12 ¶ The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: 14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
So here God lists Job right along with Noah and Daniel as examples of very righteous people whose righteousness wouldn't be enough to save Jerusalem from the destruction that is coming due to the people's wickedness. I can't think of any reason why God would include a fictional person in that list. There is simply no need. It's not like He couldn't come up with another real person besides Noah and Daniel. So to me that reference is pretty convincing.
But like others have said, whether Job was a real person or not, the point of his story is the same.
I don't think we've ever had the counsel given to treat the book of Job or the man spoken of there in the same manner as we have been counseled concerning say the books of the Apocrypha or Song of Solomon.
Very little of the scripture is or was written in a documentary or historical footnote or shorthand manner. Much of the New Testament consists of "administrative and doctrinal clarification letters". Much of what we consider modern scripture is written in the form of persuasive speech and essay (conference talks and Ensign articles). The Book of Mormon is an abridgement of several other abridgements of vast quantities of records. The Psalms, Proverbs, and much of Ecclesiastes, for example, are poems and song lyrics for the most part. Portions of the Old Testament are written versions of the teachings passed down by the patriarchs and ancient prophets, whereas other parts are kind of theocratic civic records, and then some are the written record of specific prophets' prophecies. Regardless of the type of document that a particular portion of scripture is, it does not change what is confirmed by individual revelation time and time again by the Holy Ghost that the truth is found therein.
Job's story and experience is something we all can relate to far easier than say Abraham and Isaac. It is no more symbolic than the story of Abraham, even if it isn't written as a first hand witness narrative. Here we have a righteous man, or a man who was respected for his righteous standing in the community, who is asked to go through his own version of laying it all on the altar. In much of the experience, he wasn't given the choice as to whether it would go on the altar, it was simply placed there. His choice though was in how he reacted. Would he exercise and strengthen his faith to The Lord despite everything in his life going to heck in a handbasket or would he weed himself out of the test by cursing God and going his own way?
I doubt any of us have, are, or will be asked to sacrifice our child upon the altar of God to prove our faithfulness. But we each are assured we will have our own Abrahamic trial if we have entered into the temple covenants. It is part of the whole Abrahamic Covenant thing. Will we individually be ready for when it comes? Will we individidually be able to recognize it? Will we individually choose to stand with The Lord, or will we weed ourself out of the test and blessings that come by passing it by cursing God and going our own way?
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Sorry.
