What would Jesus Do?

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

What would Jesus Do?

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I think that when someone I'm close to decides to leave the Church, especially if I didn't see it coming, it changes my perception of who they are. It is like my old perception dies. And the first thing I need to do is mourn that. It really has nothing to do with the realitive goodness of the person involved. It's about the fact that something fundamental in my view of the other person has changed. When I say mourn, that's what I mean, even to the point that I can see myself going through the five stages of grief. (Denial and Isolation. Anger. Bargaining. Depression. Acceptance.) So, as I'm going through these phases, it best if I can be aware and keep some distance (as in not pushing the issue) when I'm not coming from a place of acceptance. That's super hard for me, because I tend to "know" I'm right (especially when I'm angry!) and I also tend to want to express and settle things right away.

So, while the question of what Jesus would do is a fine and noble one, I'm not sure that it's the right one for me. Jesus doesn't have the weaknesses that I do. (And yay for that!) I am rather imperfect in my tendancies towards denial, anger, arrogant bargaining and selfish depression. I think the better question is between Heavenly Father, Jesus & I. And it's "What would Thou have me do?" And I should follow that up with some urgent pleading for the strength to do it.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Hiccups, you described better than I ever could my exact feelings.

I don't know what Jesus would do in reply to recent events. I know that when I was on my way out of the church, He came after me in many ways.

As far as what Jesus did, I'm sure there are many interpretations of the limited recorded accounts we have.

He didn't waste a lot of time among those who rejected Him and the principles of the gospel. At a few points, he debated with them and confounded them. He had what seems like harsh criticism for their hypocrisy and ignorance. Blind guides, whited sepulchres, etc.

For those who knew the truth and then turned from it, I believe His teaching of the lost sheep most beautifully illustrates His love for them.

He stated over and over that His message was for those who had eyes to see and ears to hear, and that the whole need no physician, but those who are sick.

I'm sure there are many more perspectives. These are ones that come readily to my mind.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Shiz, I will assume you are you really wanting to understand and not trying to find fodder for being upset or angry at those in the Church who have not opted to follow the path you have followed. Did you make the same sort of announcement over across the river as you did here in early August?

Anyway, if you want to consider how the Savior would personally react, here are several passages from the New Testament that reflect His feelings of when people had had enough of following / living the fulness of the Gospel during His mortal ministry:

Matthew 7:21-29

Mathew 13:18-21

Matthew 24:3-15

John 6:22-69

This is not Christ, but Paul, so it is probably safe to assume he is speaking authoritatively:

Acts 20:26-31

Galatians 1

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Cat, I'm confused as to how some of those apply. I'd welcome some interpretation.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

What were you expecting to have happen? What were you hoping?

You were a part of the church long enough to know that, doctrinally, there is concern when someone leaves the church. It does worry us, it does hurt us. I'd think that I would be MORE insulted if I had announced my intentions to leave the church, and my friends and family just said, "Okay, whatever! Enjoy yourself!".

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

The ones from Matthew are parables. Parables that The Savior gave specifically concerning individual apostasy. The one from John is The Savior prophesying about what would occur prior to His Second Coming, again with a reference included to individual apostasy as the result of being offended. The ones from Acts and Galatians were the words of one of The Savior's authorized representatives trying to help the members in specific areas he had responsibility for admonishing them to return to the Gospel instead of straying.

I am not trying to preach at you Shiz. I assume you have a quadruple combination. If you are confused, have you seriously considered picking it up and spending at least as much time reading and pondering the contents of it as you have devoted to the things that started the doubt and loss of belief? It isn't my place to interpret for you, Shiz. You asked the question how Jesus would behave... I found specific examples to give you something to think about from the least confrontational book of scripture I could think of to someone who has indicated they no longer agree with certain basic tenants of the Restored Gospel and Church.

You may have gone down the path of picking and choosing what you want to believe in the fulness of Christ's Restored Gospel, but I think you still know how The Lord works... If you don't understand something, it is your responsibility to take it before The Lord and seek His answer and clarification.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

That sounded snarky. Not intentionally. It's a sincere question. :)

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

That's fine, Jen.

Actually I didn't mean this thread to become about me. I thought this would be an interesting topic for discussion. It was something that occurred to me.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Shiz, that seems a bit unrealistic to expect people would not relate it back to you if you start asking questions like that.

A lot less need to think inwardly if stuff is left in generalities, right?

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

I don't think the discussion needs to be about me, and I think it is better for the forum if it isn't.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

*quietly braiding her whip*

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Fear the whip. I do wonder who she's gonna use it on though.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

In a previous thread I wrote:

The gospel has given me the strength to keep moving on.
Because that is so very true in my life I personally Jesus expects me to help others to have that same experience and happiness. Because I am a member of His church and have complete faith in Him as my Savior and Redeemer, I believe I must share the Gospel message of Faith, Repentance, Baptizm, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, especially through service to others. I cannot separate my Love for the Savior and my feelings of responsibilty to His Gospel, from who I am... I am sure there are those that believe me to be preachy... But it is what I believe to be my responsibilty. It do not get to choose how others respond to those things I try to share...

These are the same things that I have been trying to do since I accepted membership in His church...

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

fear of shiz wrote:

I don't think the discussion needs to be about me, and I think it is better for the forum if it isn't.

Perhaps that is true. But, based on your revelation to the forum, can't you see how and why forum members may view the questions you started this thread with, even as carefully worded as they appear, to perhaps infer a bit of finger pointing?

As Polly said, "I do not get to choose how others respond to the things I try to share." For individuals who are trying to live the gospel, they have no control over how others respond to that... just the same as for individuals who once lived the gospel but have opted to move away from it can't expect to control how others respond to them.

In the latter scenario, I don't believe the individual who has left the gospel safety net is on higher moral ground for making judgements about others in that safety net. Yet, nearly all those same individuals I have ever come across have engaged a selective moral reasoning that justifies, validates, and supports their position as they build their own fountain of "truth". One of the things that often is ignored is that Christ did not command not to judge... His commandment was for His disciples and followers to exercise righteous judgement. That infers strongly they are to discern and make decisions and judgement daily based on the promptings they receive from the Holy Ghost. How exactly is someone who has abandoned the faith in a better position at measuring the level of spiritual in-tune-ness of someone who has not abandoned the faith?

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

I'm a little confused as to why you would start this thread myself Shiz, if it isn't about your experiences lately.

But, if we are "really" speaking in generalities about what Jesus would do, honestly the only thing that keeps popping in my head is "liken yourself unto the scriptures."

Cat gave you specific examples in the New Testament of what Christ said to people in similar situations and like all scriptures we must search them out and study them and pray about them.
I honestly don't think there is much more he or anyone can say.
To actually guess what Jesus would actually do and how he would proceed is pure conjecture.

I agree with all the other posts that have been made thus far of how one might react.

I have had a relative myself who a couple of years ago announced that she had been doing some "studying" and no longer believed the church was true. Naturally she had a variety of different reactions. Some people were upset, some weren't surprised, yet all were sad and
disheartened about it.
To those who reacted negatively yeah, she was hurt and upset at first but she understood why they were.
She chose the higher ground and did not let their reactions dictate how she was going to react.

As of today, well we all still pray that one day she will have a change of heart and return to the Church and we will continue to do so. And, in my personal opinion I believe that Christ would do the same.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Bear with me this is going to be superlong. I thought I'd better include all of Cat's scripture references since I wanted to talk about them and what I feel about their relevence to this thread. So, in the order that he listed them, here are all those references. (Oh, and apologies in advance if I missed editing out any of the footnote letters and something looks funny.)

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 ¶ Therefore whosoever aheareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the arain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

18 ¶ Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into astony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man adeceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall cdeceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not btroubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of asorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my names sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the cend come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

22 ¶ The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What asign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never bthirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Fathers bwill which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bbread that I will give is my cflesh, which I will dgive for the elife of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man bascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should abetray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 ¶ From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the awords of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon aremoved from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mothers womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lords brother.
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
24 And they glorified God in me.

Ok, for now, I have to go do school stuff. Editing out the footnotes took all my time. I'll be back.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Ok, now after quoting all that, I only have a few things to say about it.

Especially as someone who has experience being away from the Church, I wouldn't quote some of those scriptures to someone who was leaving or has left the Church. Yes, Jesus said those things (well, the first four,) but I know my judgement of situations is highly imperfect. So, where Christ should say and did say those things, it's not my place to apply them to other people. I do not know the intent and content of anyone else's heart but mine. I feel that quoting some of those scriptures to a person who is leaving or has left the Church implies judgement and could be really hurtful. My concern with these scriptures would be confined to their application in my life.

I also cannot assign motives to other people. I did wonder if there was reproach in the OP, but I decided all I could do was answer the question asked to the best of my ability and leave the speculation out. (We have deliberately not talked about the why's involved in Shiz's choice here. I feel that it would be unfair and uninformed of me to try to address his choice here based on what we cannot talk about. It could never be a two-way conversation. So, even though I could and did speculate in my own mind as to why he asked the question, I chose to answer his question and not address his possible motivations. Besides, I would not want someone else judging my actions in such a way. I would feel unloved and wrongly judged.)

I am not a perfect person. No one around me is perfect either. I believe that I accepted those conditions before coming to this Earth. I believe that the imperfect people around my imperfect self are my brothers and sisters. I strive to be able to treat them all in a loving way. I do not always succeed. In fact, I have often and spectacularly failed. But I do not give up.

What this means for a particular situation is ultimately between my Heavenly Father, Jesus & I.

I hope that I was clear and not hurtful. I am not angry at anyone here. The course this topic has taken, though, has made me sad. I wanted to address that.

Hoss Cartwright · Senior Member

hiccups wrote:
Yes, Jesus said those things (well, the first four,) but I know my judgement of situations is highly imperfect. So, where Christ should say and did say those things, it's not my place to apply them to other people.

Exactly. Jesus said many things, at an appropriate time and place. Even quoting him exactly does not necessarily make us right in every single instance. Mostly because we never have the whole story, so frequently we use the words of Jesus to somehow justify ourselves in doing what we want to do anyway. Even when "what we want to do" is wildly inappropriate.

So, as I always say, the right question is not "WWJD?" The right question is "what does Jesus want ME to do?" And the correct answer to that question requires our hearts to be full of love, and inspiration of The Spirit.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It has been my sad experience that those who leave the church, leave with a smokescreen.

Entertaining notions like "what would Jesus Do?" may be just another smokescreen, because Jesus knew the hearts of men and didn't ever fall for the deceitfulness that Satan puts into the hearts of men, he never fell for the traps of the pharisees, and he went about his business both exposing their hypocrisy and gathering his elect, and comforting those who stood in need of comfort.

But we do. We are human. This is often the primary trouble that apostates have... the idea that the church is made of humans never quite gets past the fantasy that we should all be perfect.

I really like section 10 of the Doctrine and Covenants which discusses a very controversial (according to critics of the church) moment in the history of the restoration, when Joseph Smith's friend Martin Harris lost the pages of what we call "The Book of Lehi". He then lost the gift to translate for a time, and thought he'd lost everything... but in time God was merciful to Him and after some rather stinging chastisement demonstrated that while Joseph was busy fearing men and trying to impress other men, God had arranged for a way out of the "cunning" of the devil... The whole sections is worth pondering... but I especially like some of these verses... These men who did this to Joseph probably rationalized in their mind that they were doing God's will, but they were really attempting to "Tempt God" to show his work, and the devil had gotten into their minds, thinking they could force God's hand... I see this sort of behavior in my siblings who've left the church. They spend a lot of time blaspheming, and making snippy comments, and claiming this or that objection, but what they're really trying to obtain is a sign... or they want us to condemn them to an endless hell, so that they can say that we're horrible people and feel better about leaving, or they want someone to fix them and not do the fixing themselves... all three are essentially different forms of trying to tempt the Lord to intervene, cuz if God "really" loved me he would stop me from destroying myself, right?

D&C 10:
36 Behold, I do not say that you shall not show it unto the righteous;
37 But as you cannot always judge the righteous, or as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous, therefore I say unto you, hold your peace until I shall see fit to make all things known unto the world concerning the matter.

So we are peoples, and Christ notes that HE knows the hearts of men, but that WE do not. So the question about what would Jesus do for a person who claims to be done with the church, but doesn't tell the whole truth... well... we just hold our peace...

Apostasy doesn't happen overnight. It is a long process and seldom are those who apostatize honest even with themselves about why they make the choices they do. If they genuinely understand the scriptures, if they were taught the truth and given the chance to feel it by the Spirit, then they know that they cannot blame others for their choice, because no man, no matter how coercive can ever force another to believe or not to believe. They can withhold the truth from their own children, they can lie and deceive and choose to think the worst about their neighbors, they can be rude and try to stir up contentions and even mock God, but they cannot change the fact that their choice is their choice and what they choose to believe defines who they are.

Mormons should be above all these tendencies too, but they're not. A perfect mormon would never get angry with a neighbor or say an unkind word, or even misuse the scriptures... Even wise old grandpas, are sometimes goaded into expressing frustration at their children and grand children who behave rudely before them and prance about foolishly in their Anti-Christ Brand (TM) Emporer's clothing of Academia and Sophistry... But only those who lean upon the Arm of the Lord will ultimately receive pardon for their failings.

We should take hope, and let those who rail, rail...

(from section 10) 43 I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work; yea, I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

And this...

53 And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.

54 Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church;

55 Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

56 But it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments but build up churches unto themselves to get gain, yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the devilyea, verily, verily, I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble and shake to the center.

57 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not.

58 I am the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

And finally... who is saved?

61 And I will bring to light their marvelous works, which they did in my name;

62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.

63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.

64 Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;

65 For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;

66 Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.

67 Behold, this is my doctrinewhosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

70 And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen.

It has been my experience and privilege to feel the Holy Spirit and to taste many of the fruits that come of simple obedience to principles first revealed in the Book of Mormon and from the Prophet Joseph Smith. I love the teachings that Christ allowed him to reveal. I take comfort in them, and I believe they are true. I cannot make others believe anything--and it hurts when those who once professed to believe, turn against them, but ultimately it is God's church, not mine, and I need Christ. I depend upon His grace. And so while I try my best to reach out from the iron rod to pull others back to the strait and narrow, I cannot let go of that myself... lest I be lost in the process...

At least that's the theory. I hope that I have what it takes to endure to the end, to live In the Spirit, and to keep humble to the end that I might repent and be saved. But heck, there are no sure things... at least not until the Day of Rest.

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 12:25, 2007-09-10

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The image a Jesus with a whip clearing out the money changers just keeps popping into mind. Maybe it's my addiction to violent television programming, low blood sugar, or the bad roach dreams I keep having after saturdays move.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

The question was placed originally "Would He shun the person?"

What exactly is shunning?

According to the dictionary, shun is generally defined simply as "To avoid deliberately; keep away from."

I would venture the context the question appears to have been asked, it probably means something like this: "Shunning is often used as a pejorative term to describe any organizationally mandated disassociation, and has acquired a connotation of abuse and relational aggression."

So, in answer the question using the general simple definition, I would say yes Jesus may well deliberately avoid or keep away from certain people. He is, afterall The Son of God, and has no obligation to draw near to those who do not draw near unto Him.

As to the pejorative use and connotation of the term shun, I guess the question needs to be asked, are members of the Church who deliberately avoiding or keeping away from one who has left the Church therefore being abusive and employing relational aggression?

Are members of the Church guilty of any of the below facets of relational aggression / abuse? If so, why is the automatic assumption and inferred accusation they are more culpable and prone to do so than those that have left the Church:

Gossip - Where the abuser tells others personal information about the victim.
Lies - Where the abuser lies about the victim to others.
Betrayal - Where the abuser breaks agreements with the victim.
Isolating - Where the abuser prevents the victim from socializing with the victim's friends.
Excluding - Where the abuser prevents the victim from socializing with the abuser's friends.
Humiliation - Where the abuser humiliates or shames the victim in front of others.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Some scriptures on the subject of the mind of God, or more commonly worded here, "What would Jesus do?" ---

Rom. 11: 34- For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Rom. 12: 2, 16 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is good, and acceptable, and perfect, the will of God.

1 Cor. 1: 10- Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Cor. 2: 16- For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

My opinion is that we may ourselves possess the mind of Christ. The will of God need not be an unattainable mystery. The Spirit instructs us. This is the mind of God. A oneness between the Father and the Son. In fact, we are told - "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation." (D&C 68:4) We may know for ourselves what Jesus would do in any circumstance we find ourselves in.

Apostacy is certainly not an overnight decision, as ray pointed out. It takes time to become hardened to those prickings of the Spirit, but by and by it can be done.

Shiz asked in the OP: Or would He always be trying to persuade them to change their decision?

My answer to this is yes. And not only Him but all his prophets that we have record of, as far as I can read. Long-suffering, indeed.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I am not comfortable speculating on what the nature of Christ's theoretical shunning might or might not be.

I have to choose carefully if I ever feel need to disassoiciate myself with someone else. I will relate a story from my life to illuminate my point. When I got into high school, my friends from jr high began hanging out with the metal heads and potheads in the smoking section at school. Now, I didn't feel that the smoking section was a place for me. I didn't like it there and I didn't want to be a part of it. I told my friends I couldn't be there. I didn't condemn them, though they did get upset. I didn't try to tell them they were wrong. And I didn't beleaguer the point. I said my small piece and quietly went on my way.

It didn't turn out well, but that is actually one of the few occasions I can look back on and not have regrets for the way I behaved myself.

As for gossip, lies, betrayal, isolating, excluding and humiliation... I don't understand how that relates here.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Those are facets of relational aggression. Our current contemporary culture teaches us that shunning is evil, and like anything else that does not celebrate that which is diverse, must be a source of abuse and intolerance. I bring this up because if members of the church are guilty of shunning (even if it is the traditional non-pejorative definition) those who leave the church in the manner that many former members claim we do, then we must of necessity be employing a combination of these things in how we treat one another. That is what the accusations of mistreatment boil down to essentially. And of course, along with those accusations, the former members are portrayed as completely innocent of that very behavior.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Shunning is so 17th century. No one does that anymore except the Amish!

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

And Dwight Shrute.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I'd like to see him fight Kramer in a martial arts death match.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Who is shunning who?

Is it shunning a person to adhere to your standards, despite the choices of friends? I've had friends (and certain family members) insist that I must compromise my beliefs in God in order to remain their friend (or show that I "truly love them".

But if I honestly believe that I'm right, it would be wrong for me to turn against my principles just because someone says so... I know that's not how those who feel "shunned" see it, but I need to do basic things like study the scriptures, pray with my family, and go to church in order to maintain my own spiritual perspective.

If I leave those things for another, all I've done is made them my god... and what a horrible thing to do to them... for ultimately they will not save me, they have no power in themselves--only Christ can.

Men sell themselves for so many cheap things. I may not be able to resist all temptations, but I know the source from whence comes his power and authority to forgive sins, and it isn't an intellectual curiosity or a rigorous study of questionable rhetoric that gave me that knowledge.

In an effort to be friend, don't I have an obligation to continue to share that knowledge with those less sure?

What exactly would Jesus do? I don't know that in every situation, but I do know that God sets up situations in which the only lasting absolute is to stick to His way rather than any other.

Do I have to stop talking about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon for some people to like me?

Would Jesus do that?

Do I need to show a little more skin, get a tattoo, multiple piercings, post my picture on MySpace, go to a rated R movie, or have sex with you, in order for you to like me?

If you decide you're gay and leave your wife and kids and then come to my house with your gay lover, will you be angry at me if I am less than welcoming to the gay lover--or if I were to dare to preach the Gospel to this person?

What if I leave my "Proclamation on the Family" on my wall during the social visit? Will you expect me to take it off the wall for your visit?

It's one thing to be pleasant and kind, and we're all longsuffering, but my experience seems to be that once someone starts thinking that way about their fellow saints, they will never be happy until you renounce your core beliefs--else you're going to imagine up in your heart that we're all just secretly "shunning" you... under the guise of trying to be pleasant...

Would Jesus do those things?

It's enticing to think that if only we compromise our standards a little, that maybe we'll somehow reach one more person and bring them back into the fold, but in my opinion that shows a lack of trust in God, his appointed servants, and in ourselves.

Would I like you more if you ruined your life--and then claimed that you did it for me!?

What Would Jesus Do?

Jesus can look upon the heart and discern Spirits. He can cast out devils and heal the wounded soul with the brush of his cloak. Seeing as how I'm currently just a little bit less than that, I'll do the best i can, trying to adhere to the standards that He has revealed to his appointed servants, and will let the rest of the chips fall where they may...

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 15:27, 2007-09-10

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

Cat Herder wrote:

But, based on your revelation to the forum, can't you see how and why forum members may view the questions you started this thread with ... to perhaps infer a bit of finger pointing?

How exactly is someone who has abandoned the faith in a better position at measuring the level of spiritual in-tune-ness of someone who has not abandoned the faith?

I did not intend to do any finger-pointing, or to pass judgment on anyone. As I said before, I thought this was a perspective that could be interesting, with all the discussion of late.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Okay, fair enough.

Perhaps you can redirect the conversation along the lines of why the topic / question is interesting and important from your perspective. You have been pretty silent up to this point.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I think these original photographs are all the answer I need to the question.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

btw, in terms of clarification, since it's been requested in private, my general comments are not to be seen as an attack on Shiz or anyone in general.

I had a rough weekend, in which my brothers essentially ganged up on my parents, dragged out a bunch of bad feelings, and made some rather ridiculous and extreme comments, and it all essentially boiled down to, if you don't let me have my way, you don't really love me.

Amazing how these simple disagreements sound so childish, yet cause such hurt and misery.

--Ray

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Jason, what the???

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Jen wrote:

Jason, what the???

Actual photos also good for making Sacrament Meeting Programs with your own announcements. Throws the old timers off big time!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Poor Jase... gone off the deep-end again...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

We believe Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament, right?

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Jason those pictures are almost sacreligious, but they're still funny.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

You should see how easilly people overlook them on a fake sacrament meeting program.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Those ARE funny. I can just see some of my ward member's reactions...

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

So, let me get this straight - a person 'comes out of the closet' and announces he is leaving the church, or having his name removed, or doesn't believe anymore, or whatever. And now he is finding people in his life, friends, family, online buddies, people who knows the news - they're reacting differently in sometimes strange, quite diverse ways. This person is trying to grasp why people are all of a sudden looking at him differently, when he's the same person he was before 'the announcement'. Those who know him are trying to grasp and explain why things are different now.

Well, if I were that person, the first thing I'd say to myself is "man, I'm sure glad this sort of situation isn't just a Mormon thing". I'd understand that this happens everywhere, all the time. The boy that tells his dad he doesn't want to follow in his footsteps and become an artist - the boy wants to become a coal miner instead. Jews that decide to become non-observant and non-practicing. The rich family that decides to quit their jobs, sell all their belongings, and hop a plane to Malaysia to assist in evangelical outreach. Ex Jehova's Witnesses turnd critic are always complaining about the 'ritual shunning' that their former church teaches. You can't swing a dead cat in a sacrament meeting without hitting a few people with ancestors who were kicked out and disowned over their choice to join the church.

All of these stories are surrounded by their own whirlwind of people involved in the life that is changing. And it's always a whirlwind. What, do you think former mormons are the only people that hear stuff like this?

rayb wrote:
It has been my sad experience that those who leave the church, leave with a smokescreen.

Some folks have their minds concluded about things - even when they're sitting there interacting online with a real, live person who is telling a story completely opposite to "their experience".

So no, if I were this person, I would not bother asking the whirlwind to ask themselves WWJD.

1) It's really none of your business.

2) Your stewardship does not extend over their thoughts and actions.

3) It ain't gonna change anything. People are still going to reel, and struggle, and react. Those who react negatively, will not react any less-negatively just because you ask them to look inwardly.

No, if I were this person, I'd just accept that I'm in the middle of a human whirlwind, and I'd ask MYSELF WWJD. How do you react to friends who are acting like they're just barely able to hold back firing both barrells? Or friends that close a friendship over the issue? Or the new friends that say "you didn't need them anyway"? What are you going to say to a wife in tears, wondering what will happen after one of you dies? How much are you going to support your kids in the church, or are you going to find another one and try to involve them in it instead?

It seems to me that if I were this person, I'd have more than enough to do figuring out how I'm supposed to react and interact and live life. Alea jacta est - the die is cast. Let the chips fall where they may. I'll be off cleaning up my own backyard, thank you.

LM
(disclaimer - nothing I've said is based on or directed at, any specific person here, or anywhere else. No getting insulted, because in all honesty, I'm not talking about you or to you. If someone happens to know somebody that this might apply to, feel free to send it to that person.)

p.s. - I guess I'll answer Shiz' question anyway: Jesus would want me to love that person as my neighbor. I believe good people exist outside of the LDS church - I believe salvation by grace is found outside of the church. We mormons have it better, and have more of it, but I'm not about to judge someone who shoots for something different. I want my girls to marry in the temple, so I'd give close scruitiny to your sons if either express interest in one another. But other than that, I'd be happy to have you over helping me drywall my basement. If I'm drywalling yours, I don't even care if you have beer - I'll just ask for ice water.

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 09:41, 2007-09-11

-- Edited by LoudmouthMormon at 09:42, 2007-09-11

TitusTodd · Senior Member

Hiccups and Roper said it well so I will second their thoughts.

Would He accept their choice? Or would He always be trying to persuade them to change their decision? If so, how would He go about it?

I don't know if He would accept their choice but that depends on what you consider acceptance. I think He is always there for us, ready for us to reach out to Him. Would He take the opportunity to make a move at the right time in hope to bring us back to Him? I think so but I don't think He would be aggressive. He knows us better than anyone else as he suffered for our shortcomings so he would know exactly how to approach us and when.

The struggle involved is that we (being, those are faced with the same questions regarding our own approach to someone we care for leaving the Church) do not have the same insight and are not perfect as Jesus Christ is. Even as we look to Him to help us, the full message and execution will not approach what Jesus Christ would do.

-- Edited by TitusTodd at 10:03, 2007-09-11

LoudmouthMormon · Profuse Pontificator

Sometimes, a quote just falls out of the sky. This one is from Joseph Smith:

If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear down on them? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better. I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by force or reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe Jesus Christ and the gospel of salvation, which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship. I am just as ready to die defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination.
--Sermon, 1843

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

LmM shared a couple really good thoughts.

Whirlwind. No one really lives in a vacuum, and as much as we all would like to think that we are free to do whatever we want, the consequences of what we do, say, or choose, regardless of what it is, are not under our control. And we can not avoid the consequences. Right, wrong, or indifferent. And it does no good to try and indicate or prove others' reactions to what one has done are right or wrong. They are what they are.

Maybe my reaction to (fill in the blank) is not one someone else would like, but dagnabbit, the world doesn't revolve around any one person. The team development concept of Forming Storming Norming Performing really does apply to any human interaction, and anytime the dynamic of a relationship is changed by changes in the variables, the relationship is going to be back in one of the more fundamental stages of Forming or Storming.

As I see it, when one withdraws spiritually from the Church, those that were in relationships with the individual are forced back into Forming and Storming, whereas the one who withdraws has chosen to go back or go out and form or become part of a new team. The latter (those who withdraw) are perplexed that things are different towards them by those that they used to be on the same team with. Sometimes (maybe often depending on any animosity and anger involved), those who "quit the team", as it were, react to that as if it proves their point for holding on to anger, animosity, and in feeling their choice was better than the alternative. I'm sure there are even those that become critical of and hypersensitive to reactions they encounter.

Some people's reactions are going to be less abrasive than others, regardless of the circumstances of a team being put through a change in model status. But as said, they are what they are, and we have no right to berate or begrudge anyone their reaction (which may or may not be an active choice on there part too) anymore than anyone has the right to step in and prevent someone from chosing what they will. We don't live in a vacuum, so it should not surprise us that whatever we do, like it or not, does impact others -- maybe in ways we had not intended or thought of.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

LM:

I think all relationships start with an almost unconscious negotiation of what one expects out of it. When that changes, the relationship cannot help but change too.

I don't know if this is Jesus's way of things, though I know that he does make covenants with us, and when we abandon them, he says it's better that we'd have never known him.

The covenant relationship with God is pretty open and the conditions on it are fairly lucid--meaning we know what God expects of us, but He also knows our hearts.

On the other hand, human relations and the unstated covenants we make with each other are not always so clearly defined.

In fact outside of marriage and legal agreements, I can think of few relationships that are so formal.

I think it's unfair to generalize a specific course of action one should follow when one party in a relationship makes a substantial change...

Taken ad absurdum, If I were a serial killer and I led you to believe I was a poor victimized peace-activist who loved baby seals and wanted to end all violence and hunger in the world... I wouldn't blame you if you reconsidered how to approach me once I disclosed to you the truth at midnight with my knife in hand, trying to break down your bedroom door. It might even be appropriate for me protest, as you blasted a new breathing hole in my torso with your shotgun, "Now, now, I'm fairly sure Jesus would not do that!"

But you'd probably forgive yourself... eventually...

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 12:22, 2007-09-11