TWO days ago she thought it would be fun to squirt liquid soap all over the laminate flooring outside her bathroom. Fun little tactic to delay going to bed, eh? She got to wipe it up, and her consequence was cleaning ALL the laminate the next day.
At the end of day 2, she hasn't even finished sweeping (she was instructed to sweep and spot-wipe). She's about 1/3 done sweeping. At the expense of having any TV, video games, or time playing with friends, she's put it off and delayed and sat there all day with broom in hand. Now she's missing out on family movie night, and if it's not done by morning, no Saturday morning cartoons.
Yes, I'm a mean mom, but once we're engaged in one of these power struggles, it is NOT an option to lose. She's stubborn, but I can outlast her.
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
Wow, that is stubborn. Which parent does she get that trait from?
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"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
I don't mean to sound rude, but there is really no other way to say this (so I'll apologize in advance)...
Oh yeah, that is really teaching her about consequences if you are leaving it up to her to do it when she finally decides to include it in her schedule...
Let's see, who is the one in control there?
Sorry, but that would not, I repeat, would not fly in our home... the child would have been cleaning it up when it happened, even if it was past bed time, plus whatever punishment was deemed appropriate by Poncho or myself.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Well, Mr. Dadzilla... what do you do if she just sits there and doesn't want to? Hold her hand and wipe it up too? Let's have some details here..."whatever punishment was deemed appropriate"... come on! What would you actually do?
My first reaction would be to make her go to bed right then with no nicey-nice talk or singing before bed, because she just added another chore to my life that I had to do before bed myself. Oh, and no time for a drink, either.
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Life is tough but it's tougher if you're stupid. -John Wayne
Jen's girls are still pretty little. I guess stubborn starts young sometimes. One of the mother's of my former Sunbeam told me that her daughter was so stubborn that she insisted that a color was not the color that her mother told her it was.
Stubborn can be good too. I recently read about a woman who continued to go to Church after a terrible rumor was started about her and lessons aimed right at her were given in Young Women's. She attributes being stubborn to her staying active when her parents gave her an out at that time due to the extreme environment.
Well first of all, the whole reason she did it was to delay going to bed. So she did a quick clean-up of the affected area and then was put right in bed. The consequence was to clean ALL of the laminate flooring, which is about 1/3 of our house (pretty big job for a Kindergartner). That was just to show her that if she was going to have such little regard for the nice home we live in, she could do some extensive work to learn some appreciation for what it takes to keep the house nice.
Trying to get her to do it exactly when I say to just makes her resist so that I have to spend a long time essentially forcing her (physically) to do it, which is just reward for her. In the meantime, she has no extras like TV and video games and playing with friends until she finishes, so the only one getting punished is her.
Lots of trial and error brought us to this, believe me. The girl knows how to work things either to her advantage or our disadvantage. We just have to stay up on the game, which means putting everything on her.
Not that I need to justify my parenting to anyone. ;)
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
Also, yes, stubborn can be good. We've known since she was an infant that she's very strong-willed, and we've been trying to find ways to channel that for good instead of having it be a stumbling block to her. Overall there's been some good progress, and she's really a very cool kid. But when she decides to do battle, she makes it count!
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
Cat: Okay, I didn't mean to suggest anyone needed to justify their parenting, but if you think it is rough now, it is only going to get worse as she gets older if you don't nip it in the bud.
Poncho: Trust us, we know. We have a 10 year old girl just like this.
Cat: We also have a 16 yr old autistic son with an occasional temper who thinks he can have his way by throwing things and breaking things. We also have a 15 yr old daughter who gives us very little attitude 99% of the time.
Poncho: Then we have a 4 1/2 year old boy who is turning into his 10 year old sister as far as listening to what we tell him to do. The two year old girl remains to be seen.
Cat: Okay, maybe down the road a Scoutmaster or YW leader (er... doubtful a YW leader if they follow the diva-ization put the girls on a pedestal program ) may question parenting after seeing kids behavior for a week away from Mommy and Daddy at camp...
Poncho: If the kid was cleaning up the floor when she felt like it on her time table, and taking away privileges obviously didn't make any difference to her as to getting it done faster, then she was the one in control.
Cat: Yeah.
Poncho: We have two kids who try to do the same thing... all the time. That is why we make them clean it up when we tell them to. Not when they feel like it. Cuz taking away privileges doesn't really matter much to them either.
Cat: It has been our experience that regardless of removal of privilege, that if we leave the doing of things like chores and cleaning of messes the child has made to THEIR decision to do it, they don't see it as necessary to do it (or as a punishment for bad behavior if applicable) and it ends up being a case of how far can I (the kid) push this before Mom and Dad really get mad and as Bill Cosby puts it, the beatings will now begin.
Poncho: Two common phrases and the responses in our house: Parent: "Clean up this mess!" repeated many times Child: "I will!" (whining) Parent: "Not when you feel like it, NOW!" Child: "Alright!" (again whiney, with a touch of defiance, then they stomp off and half-heartedly start doing it)
Cat: The amount of having to get on them a second or third time has actually been going down over the period of this summer... don't know if it is because they are getting better, or because they are simply bored and ready for school to start back up. But, even while we were writing this, we had a situation right under our nose where 10 year old and 4 year old had been told last night to pick up the playmobile toys here in the dining room that they had spread out last night. They didn't do it before going to bed, and we told them to do it now. They both whined, but we told them to just do it and stop making excuses. 2 minutes later, all the playmobile guys that 4 year old was not currently playing with were picked up and put back in the tub. Had we just waited until they decided to get around to it, they would never be picked up, regardless of saying you aren't going out to play, you can't watch TV or watch movies, you can't go over to a friend's house to play, you are not coming with us to the store, there will be no ice cream, et al... etc. etc. etc.
The point is that by not enforcing a deadline, we have found that it actually feeds stubborn behavior. Stubborn is never a good thing. Stubborn includes a certain level of defiance and pride. The trait that is manifest in stubborness that is good to develop is perseverance (or "sticking to it").
In answer to your question, Coco... yes we would hold their hand and guide their hand in how to wipe it up... if necessary. We have friends in our ward who inform us they have actually been known to do this with their teenagers as well...
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
SHE DID CLEAN THE MESS SHE MADE IMMEDIATELY. The rest was "extra" work she had to do before privileges were restored. We ARE niping this is the bud. The progress that's happened just this summer is amazing. This week was a bit of a step back, I think probably because school starts this week, and she's nervous about Kindergarten. Transitional times are the worst.
Thanks for the advice, sincerely. I apply what good I get when application is needed. Like I said, we've gone through lots of trial and error with this kid. She finished last night while everyone else got time with Dad, and I got the end result I was after (DD realizing that keeping the floors clean is hard work, and learning some appreciation for it, and deciding it wasn't worth doing things like making big messes to delay going to bed).
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
Here's my perception of the problem: The initial issue, the relationship, and the subsequent discussion and advice given here have all been defined in terms of power and control. Besides that perspective being contrary to my own philosophy about children, my experience is that it's not effective in the long run despite the immediate compliance that might be elicited.
My
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
You would think I would have learned to keep my mouth shut and opinions to myself when it comes to things as inflammatory as how to deal with children and disciplining them... particularly with all you long suffering lot. Why do all y'alls put up with me? I forget too easily that most LDS parents take offense at being told things that could be interpreted as someone even remotely saying their children could benefit from a visit to the age appropriate woodshed.
Talk is cheap...
-- Edited by Cat Herder at 17:19, 2007-08-25
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
First of all let me say that WHATEVER works for all of you... go for it... BUT for the most part I don't really believe that any tactic works exactly the same way on any two kids... At least with our bunch (including adopteds) it sure hasn't... and I have seen a LOT of scenarios.
Our princess sounds a lot like your sweet-stubborn one too, Jen... Except we called our princess... "down right WILLFUL", from the age of 2 months. At almost 20 she is much more than "reasonable"... which is way nicer than her attitude for a long, LONG while there as a kidlet and then pre-teen/teenager when we had to play "battle of the wills"... Fortunately from the time she was about 14 she really "got it" and became a more moderate person, we have had almost no major hassle with her in fact for several years, and very little out-n-out "rebellion". So maybe that will be your experience with your princess and she will settle down and be easier for you once she gets some of this out of her system... Polly-Princess (aka Daughter) was one that required MAJOR PRE-negotiating of possible foreseen and unforeseen punishments... She always wanted to deal, after the fact otherwise, which of course doesn't work... We had to learn how to make proactive-discipline work for us too...
We were and still are pretty strict and consistent when it comes to consequences for bad behaviors, we've always tried very hard to spell everything out too... but one of the things I haven't heard brought up is that within reason in our family we negotiate punishments together... because we noticed early on that most of our children have dealt with punishments best, when they are part of the process of deciding what those punishments will be. That was ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT with Daughter... It's a process I highly recommend with all children, but willful ones seem to NEED it. About the time our oldest hit 5-6 he started to be a part of that process, through family councils. So he knew, if I do "this" I am going to have to do "this" right away, and probably "that" the next day or "whatever else" for the next 3 weeks... He was our easy one... I think Heavenly Father was preparing us for Daughter...
One of the things that many discipline books say will happen... but it surprised us that it really did, is that our kids are almost always harder when it comes to coming up with agreed upon consequences than we would have been... and once a rule was established they rarely whined, that it is too hard, or unfair. (They do sometime try "re-negotiating", for next time... But we don't usually agree to that back track tactic.) From a pretty young age many of the standard types of offenses were already covered under "blanket" categories... and all we had to do was point out: **offense J is just like this one in nature so that is the punishment, that goes with this behavior.** You would be surprised at how often our kids say now as adults... "When we were "insert age" and you and dad were on date night we thought about doing X... but we figured out that we would get the punishment for M and changed our minds... It wasn't worth it..."
As everyone describes in their own way... children are not little adults... and they do want very defined guidelines to work with... but I did not have the physical strength to MAKE my kids to anything when they were much younger... They had me over a barrel in that area, and it was just a matter of time before they figured that out... We HAD to come up with another option...
I just thought I would throw it out there in case it might help.
I shouldn't start threads on parenting. It seems that there are 2 main ways of raising kids: gentle discipline/non-coercive parenting, and the more corporal/mainstream type. I fall somewhere smack in the middle, so no one agrees with me. But what we do works for our kids, so no biggie.
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
I have three principles that govern my relationships with children--my own and those I teach.
1. D&C 121:34-46 But Roper, that applies to priesthood. Yes, it does. And to every relationship we have. Our heritage is to become priests and priestesses. We have been given this life to prepare by practice.
2. "The best and most clear indicator we are progressing spiritually and coming unto Christ is the way we treat other people." - Marvin J. Ashton. If another person observed my interaction with a child, would that person see a disciple of Christ?
3. Never do for a child what you can teach her to do for herself.
I have yet to be in a situation with a child where I feel it necessary to abandon any of these principles. That might change--I'll let you know after the first six weeks of Kindergarten
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The ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life. - Julie Beck
This is what I have learned through my years as a parent:
1) There are those that will disagree with what you do, no matter what it is. Just different people disagreeing. You are lucky if they still allow your kids to associate with their's.
2) If your kids are turning out to be decent folks, you are successful. (And much of the time, their sucess is in spite of you)
3) If your kids turn out to be trouble, it propably isn't your fault.
4) If you are a parent, develope a tough skin: to protect you from your kid's and from "neighors"
Cat and Poncho: If your kids actually do what they are told simply after a few dozen times of you saying 'do it NOW', then I wouldn't call them extremely stubborn.
I have seen kids refuse for HOURS upon HOURS of constant coercion, demands &/or punishment to do something they are supposed to do, and nothing but physically forcing the kid will make them do it sooner. Physically forcing a child doesn't teach them ANYTHING but resentment and anger.
I have seen kids physically hurt themselves to avoid giving in to a parent.
Crud, I've BEEN a kid who physically hurt herself, multiple times, to the point of nearly being killed, because I was stubborn.
Now, the examples you gave may have been extremely watered down. But I think it's wrong to assume that your kids are 'the worst' so no other kids can compare, so as far as you go is going to work for every other kid.
Sorry if I'm out of line. I'm just defensive of Jen. I know her kids. This one child is a handful.
Dyany, who said anything about us assuming our kids are 'the worst'?
Honestly, I do feel your comment is a little out of line, cuz there is no need to get defensive. No offense is taken though, as you are allowed your opinion, as we are ours. As far as I can tell, there is/was no conflict going on between the viewpoints expressed. So, there is no need to try and start one.
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It seems to me the only thing you've learned is that Caesar is a "salad dressing dude."
Thanks for sticking up for me, Dyany. It's okay though. . . I'm not insulted or anything. And I know it's hard to see the picture when you don't know my little firecracker. :) She's a good, smart, fun girl though, and things really are getting a lot better.
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"There is order in the way the Lord reveals His will to mankind. . .we cannot receive revelation for someone else's stewardship." L. Tom Perry
Oh, poor Jen. Shall I whip you up a giant batch of bathsalts? In my opinion, they are far superior to Calgon
(AND you can personalize the scent from among my stock of about a dozen. Calgon has like 3 options.)
-- Edited by hiccups at 18:12, 2007-08-31
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"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
"The promptings of the Holy Ghost will always be sufficient for our needs if we keep to the covenant path. Our path is uphill most days, but the help we receive for the climb is literally divine." --Elaine S. Dalton
to keep my mouth shut and opinions to myself when it comes to things as inflammatory as how to deal with children and disciplining them... particularly with all you long suffering lot. Why do all y'alls put up with me? 
