Thou Shalt not Kill the small furry critters...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Thou Shalt not Kill the small furry critters...

Dyany · Senior Member

For me, it was natural. For my husband, it was after a neighbor kid tortured a duck and then forced (well...coerced) my husband into killing it. He was traumatized by that.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

This is an interesting topic. I've always thought and felt killing animals was wrong, except for bugs and stuff that are in your house. However, having quite of bit of our last Sac. Mtg. devoted to the sacrifices of OT times, it was really making me think. The way the high councilman described the choosing of the sacrifice, the actual killing... it was honestly sickening. I just don't get how that could make one more spiritual.

I think some of your senses have to be dulled to do that, but apparently I'm missing the point. I seem to be on a roll with missing the point lately.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

Well, of course in OT times they were always killing animals. Not just for or mainly for sacrifice but mostly for food. These days most of us don't often kill for meat (except for regular hunters or farmers/ranchers) - the killing has already been done. So, it is natural not to look on killing animals in the same light as they did in OT times.

I never had a great desire to kill small furry critters. I once hit a squirrel in the head with a rock (throwing it from a good distance away) and felt pretty bad when it started going into seizures or spasms of some kind. There's nothing to be gained by killing the small furry critters unless you eat squirrels and such. Of course, then I think of the pesky gophers that eat the garden and other pest rodents that I have killed and did not feel so bad.

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

I went squirrel hunting once. Didn't see any. It was a fun walk in the woods.

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

It was after I shot a little bird with a bb gun, and it didn't die. It was in pain. I knew my duty then was to put it out of it's misery, but my inept 10-yr old fingers and the weak gun drew the process out waaaaay too long (probably about a minute or two, but it seemed like an eternety.) Thinking about the experience still makes me cry.

I've since learned that there is an incomprehensibly massive amount of pain and death and agony in the natural world. Baby foxes and little birds and cute fuzzy little bunnies get all tore up and starve and get diseases and die and get eaten, and it happens everywhere, all the time. I've seen the video footage - baby lion cubs understand their death is approaching, when their dad is run off by a new alpha lion.

Understanding that pain and agony is a normal part of nature, set up this way on purpose by God, is not that great of a comfort, but it does help steele me against it when I witness it. It's my job to help aleviate suffering when I'm in a position to do so. And not cause more than necessary.

Hamburger anyone?

HSR

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

A very powerful story from a guy named Daniel, posted a few years ago, a couple message boards away:
While attending BYU, I worked as an assistant shepherd. No, not at the MTC or anything--I mean literally. The year after I returned from my mission, I worked for the BYU Sheep Unit, where I shepherded a flock of 250+ sheep. The man I worked for--the Head Shepherd--was an older gentleman by the name of Warren Kuhl. He had worked with sheep for many years, and had a wisdom about him that I admired--he was a 'shepherd philospher' of sorts. I loved working for him, and he and I shared many great conversations, both spiritual and secular. I learned a lot during that fall and winter about taking care of sheep--feeding, breeding, lambing--as well as about life itself from Warren.
In the spring of that year, Warren asked me to come down to one of the buildings one afternoon. He wanted to teach me some additional things about sheep. Once I arrived, he told me that we had to round up a group of them to take to slaughter house (which was located right there as part of BYU's farm). He asked if I would be willing to participate and help. I willingly did so. We rounded up the sheep, and drove them into the slaughter house. He showed me how the sheep were killed by using a special type of device (I can't remember the name). This was done by holding the foot-long metal cylinder vertically against the top of the sheep's skull. Then, by pushing a button, the device would fire a metal piston straight down through the sheep's skull and into it's brain, thus killing it instantly. Warren invited me to participate in the slaughter.
I have never hunted, nor killed anything. I am person if gentle disposition--never prone to violence nor bloodshed, so it was difficult for me to do. But Warren's approach was one of quiet invitation, not abrasive cajoling, and I did so--holding the sheeps' heads while he pulled the triggers, and even pulling that trigger once myself for one of the sheep.
Later that afternoon, as we tended the rest of flock, Warren and I talked about that experience. He explained why he invited me to participate. Warren was a quiet, gentle man--a man who loved his sheep, though NOT a vegetarian nor an animal rights activist. He felt that in today's 'convenience obsessed society,' too many people are so used to going to the supermarket and picking up their prepackaged, weighed, celephane-wrapped bundles of meat, they do not give a second thought to the lives that are given on their behalves. We spoke of life--of death----of stewardships--of the earth and all it's creations--of God's plan. We spoke of reverance for those of God's creations that we are stewards over, those animals who's lives we take in order to sustain our own. We spoke of bloodshed, and giving thanks. The slaughter was a violent and bloody experience. It was a unique and singular experience. It was a spiritual experience that had a profound and deeply moving affect on me--one that affects my attitudes about violence and life and death to this very day. And we were 'just' talking about sheep.

-- Edited by Homestar Runner at 10:18, 2007-08-14

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Maybe someone should have given that commandment to one of Cat's boy scouts this past week, considering the death of a chipmunk that occurred last week. (By accident of course, but due to carelessness and acting stupid just the same). To top it all off them boys had no respect for the poor, dead animal when they were doing things like swinging it around by the tail! They had to be instructed to give it a proper burial. Sheesh!

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 13:06, 2007-08-14

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

This is the perfect lead in to a story I shared with Cat the other day...

---

Killed a chipmunk!? Boy does that bring up memories of scouts...

When I first moved to Utah, from California, the very first week i was there, I left with the Teachers in my quorum for their week long scout camp. It was a rather lengthy hike that ended at a camp. There was a cute little groundsquirrel was trying to raid the camp. I thought he was adorable, but as always happens there were these kids trying to be tough and assert their manliness over nature. One of the boys picked up a stone and hurled it at the little guy and struck it on the head. The poor animal convulsed and kicked and spun in a circle letting out the most pitiful little cries. The boy tried to "put it out of its misery" as he put it... by going over on stomping on the thing until it died. But it didn't die with the first stomp. Instead it cried out each time he stomped on it, over and over and over again.

All the boys laughed at this scout who'd tortured this animal to death. I don't remember the scout leader's reactions... though I'm pretty sure they didn't approve of the boy's initial action. Their reaction was probably something like the moral lesson of "I told you so."

I was so horrified, being a city boy, I dug a grave for it, and put a little cross made of sticks on it, and said a little prayer over the grave. I remember everyone just staring at me, even the scout leaders. Thinking I'm nuts...

Nice way to start your time as a scout in new place you just moved into... sigh... I was pretty weird. :)

--Ray

Valhalla · Profuse Pontificator

I killed plenty of critters when young, a lot of boys when they first get a BB gun to their first .22, well it happens. It was when I read that we are responsible for the blood that we shed.

I do kill mice if I spot them. Rabbits, if they anywhere near my garden, it is an automatic death sentence. Haven't seen many around, haven't shot any since last summer.

I do hunt, mainly deer. I skin, butcher, grind, put them up myself. I am not interested in heart or liver, but there some members in my branch that gladly take those, the rest of the innards go to another member to feed to his chickens.

Frankly, it makes me appreciate the sacrifice, both of God's creation and of the animal itself. I always pray before the hunt for a swift, clean kill. Usually what I get too. One shot, one kill.

Not only a greater appreciation for what I receive, but that I think it will be a valuable skill set in the not-so-distant future.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

As in... mad skills for the coming apocalypse? Awesome!

I'll trade you cheese for some elk sausage, 'kay?

mirkwood · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cocobeem wrote:

As in... mad skills for the coming apocalypse? Awesome!

weirdface

biggrin

I'll trade you some cans of beans for that elk meat!!!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

As an aside, Don't you think that if society were to collapse, that the population of all huntable game and the demand from human populations would pretty much eat them all up within a year?

--Ray

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

sure... We are suppose to have a "years supply", remember???

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

In my collapsing society, the people go much quicker than the eatable animals.

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Oh coco... you are such an optimist!

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Hey, it's mainly the bad people... that's a good thing, right?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

rayb wrote:

As an aside, Don't you think that if society were to collapse, that the population of all huntable game and the demand from human populations would pretty much eat them all up within a year?

--Ray

That's what the national parks are for.

Seriously folks, we've become way too separated from the killing and processing of our food. 50 years ago, most folks had at least one relative with a farm and understood that in order to eat that steak an steer has to die. Life isn't a disney movie. I don't think one should purposely torture animals but I have sent thousands upon thousands of furry creatures to the afterlife via poisons, traps, and lead poisoning. What I could eat I did, what I wanted the fur from I kept, what I couldn't use I let rot. I don't feel bad about it at all. I'm not doing this to brag but to show that this really isn't an issue of right and wrong but more an issue of most folks not making the connection anymore between supermarket and slaughter. Disney gives you this twisted view of animals as cute, cudly little fur buckets. Ground squirrels in particular are some of the most vile little targets around and probably account for the largest number of fatalities I have inflicted. The little fur buckets think nothing of eating each other. I've seen them on several occassions through the rifle scope having a tasty meal of their neighbor right before I pulled the trigger. Prarie Dogs will slaughter each others young. Both ground squirrels and prarie dogs do significant damage to farm land and they are the primary carriers of fleas that spread plague. I had a bobcat stalking me once intent on making my day miserable and a wild hog come after my best friend. As much as this sort of thing might turn your stomach, man by far is the most compassionate of hunters when compared to the animal kingdom. Animals taken by bullet or bow generally suffer much less than they would being hunted down and killed in the wild.

Even Fluffy and Rover aren't safe. People think it is fine just to dump their unwanted pest out in the country. Animal control won't come catch them and then they will start in on the livestock or fighting with the farmers animals so they get the bullet. When an animals gets seriously ill on the farm we don't take them to the vet, they get the bullet. It's not cost effective to load them up, drive them into town, and pay the vet to do the same thing with a shot and charge hundreds of dollars. Growing up doing 4-H and FFA you get to raise an animal, take it to the fair, and sell it. That lamb, pig, steer, or whatever then gets butchered and packaged up for consumption by the buyer.

I know it sounds callous but I don't feel any remorse, pain, regret, or guilt. That's just the way life is. I even admit to some pleasure in vaporizing a canabillistic little fur bucket at 200 yards using a 45 grain jacketed hollow point shot at high velocity. Not everyone can do it. It takes skill and hours of practice honing it to an art form.

It is only in the last few decades that we have been able to live in a sterile environment locked in our prestine homes cleaned with anti bacterials safe behind our computers and other plastics. We just live in a way now that we aren't forced to think about it. I also like the rationalization some people use these days. They have no problem trapping rats or shooting the rabbit in the garden but think it is wrong that someone else wants to shoot and eat deer, quail, ducks, etc. An animal is an animal. Killing a rat is only different from killing another animal because we convince ourselves that it is different.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

So you don't think that animals are cute, Jase?

--Ray

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

I'd be willing to say that cute would only apply to the ferrets you stuffed down your pants at the last Possum Lodge meeting, ray...

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

Soylent Green!

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Just cuz something's cute doesn't mean you can't eat it... I'm just curious why we shouldn't think of animals as cute.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

cuz cute is girly... and we are manly men!

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Cute is when you child says something funny. Cute is not a wild squirrel eating raw flesh. I guess I've seen animals that are novel, interesting, but never cute. And I'm not just some nut who likes to shoot things. I go diving all the time and have never used a spear gun even though I'm thinking of trying it. I like to watch animals too but I don't think they are cute. Even a cow will eat meat. If you want to get rid of a body, put it in the feed grinder of a dairy and mix it with some hay. Cows will eat anything. Oh wait, I think it is cute that a cow will eat anything. I was wrong Ray! biggrin

For a description of the damage these vicious thugs can make I point you to the following: http://www.scarysquirrel.org/vacation/surprisevalley/story.html

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I guess Cute is in the eye of the beholder. I still think squirrels are cute, even if they can be vicious killing machines... :)

--Ray

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Deer are not cute either. They're expertly trained assassins masquerading as loveable woodland creatures. Cat has seen their evil work first hand!!!!

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Hear, hear Jason! There are so many deer in our community, the population is out of control.
But city officials won't let anyone do anything about it. It's illegal to shoot or trap any of them.
We don't live anywhere near the country yet we have deer running through here constantly.
I saw an article in a newspaper recently that our city has the most deer related auto accidents in our county. We are always seeing dead deer at the side of the road.
I have heard of stories where local deer have attacked peoples pets because they thought they were a threat to their young. It's ok for Bambi to attack or kill your dog, but you can't do anything to Bambi! I'm all for protecting wildlife, but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.
And the reason they are running rampant is because our city used to be countryside. City developers keep encroaching on their territory and they have no place else to go.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

The little prarie dogs... the ones in Prarie Dog Town up there by Mt. Rushmore... the ones that poke their cute little heads up out of their holes and watch you drive by... they EAT EACH OTHER????

Dude, yer freakin' me out.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Yep, their blood thirsty little monsters. I remember reading about this scientist who observed the prarie dogs sneaking into the holes and killing the young pups of other prarie dogs and coming out with blood dripping from their mouths as evidence of the deed. The scientist seems stunned at why an animal would do this. DER! It's an animal not a Disney character.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Oh then there's Bobcats. Female Bobcats are like the worst moms on the planet. They have been known to abandon or kill their own young for no reason. They've also been guilty of letting other male bobcats kill their young. The males do it to put the females back in heat but the females sometimes are so indifferent they just let it happen. Did I mention that bobcat fur is some of my favorite? It is very soft especially the underbelly and easy to tan at home.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

My 5yo came up and asked who sales' avatar was and I told her. Then she saw Cat's and said, "I know who that is! It's Mr. Impossible!!"

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

She must already have met Cat somewhere!

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

If you want to get rid of a body, put it in the feed grinder of a dairy and mix it with some hay. Cows will eat anything.

*files this little tidbit away for later*

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

So Jase, do you think this is wrong? (since you like killing God's critters, I thought I'd ask you... :) )

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/H/HEADLESS_WALRUSES?SITE=NYELM&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Because I'm "genuinely*" confused by your stance...

--Ray

* by the use of the word genuinely, what Ray really means is "not"... biggrin

-- Edited by rayb at 12:43, 2007-08-17

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Headless walruses are naturally the result of global warming, failure to come to a full stop before turning right at a red light, scout camp discipline problems that were left unchecked, zombies, feed grinders that have gotten stopped up, and Micheal Jackson.

Oh, coco, on the Mr. Impossible thing... how droll... can't deny she's yer child, now can we... Is this the same child who in the store loudly announced you smelled like... ahem...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

No, cat that was a different child. And yes, they all have their own unique senses of humor. Humor is good. It keeps us from killing each other.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I'm naming my new rock band The Headless Walruss. Thanks Ray!

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Speaking of little furry creatures... Cat and I saw something funny last night while on our way to that lobsterfest party we had to pay $20 for. We were driving along a dirt road through a housing development. There are a number of unpaved roads in our city, people don't want them paved because it used to be countryside, but now there are houses everywhere and people want the "appearance" of still living in the country.
Anyway, we saw a squirrel race across the road being chased by a chipmunk. It was pretty funny.
This squirrel looked like he was running for his life from this little chipmunk who looked like he was ready to beat the crap out of him. It was one of those scenes where you think, "What the...?"

Then right after that I immediately look over to my left and I see 5 deer watching us drive by.
It was almost as if they were looking at our car thinking, "Hey Rhonda, wasn't that the same Toyota Camry that Sylvia had a run-in with last winter?' Yeah, I think it is. Better keep an eye on that guy."