POLL: Nursing babies in Church.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

POLL: Nursing babies in Church.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Man, this is sure to turn into a hot debate. Having been a nursing mother before-yeah, nursing is totally natural, but it does make some people uncomfortable.
There are women who will whip out the 'ole breasts (can I say that word here?) wherever and whenever and expose everything! So my vote is torn. If there is no nursing mothers room, then what's wrong with covering up? Or if possible find another discreet place to do it. Yeah, the kid needs to eat but the whole world doesn't need to see him eat.
Our kids hated nursing under a blanket so sometimes Cat would try to help keep me covered.
He felt I needed to be discreet at home too, when nursing in front of the kids. I may not have always used a blanket at home, but I didn't like exposing everything!
In our Relief Society room there was a time when the whole back row along the wall turned into the nursing mothers row and some women were still not very discreet. I didn't have a problem with it but I know some of the older women did.

This reminds me of the time where I saw a case on Judge Judy where some person was sueing another person for assault in a restaurant and it all started when a couple didn't like seeing this woman expose herself to nurse her baby in the lobby, waiting for a table. It was pretty funny.
Except, I can't remember who was the plaintiff and who was the defendant.
The lady was completely unapologetic for feeding her 21 month old! --wasn't even a small baby in a public place. Judge Judy read her the riot act. Let's hear it for the judge!

-- Edited by Poncho29 at 12:05, 2007-08-04

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

If others are uncomfortable, that's their problem. Hungry baby gets priority every time over someone else's prudish embarassment.

IIRC, a similar discussion at Nauvoo revealed that the women were more uptight about it than the men. With the exception of our beloved Catherder, of course wink

Euphrasie · Senior Bucketkeeper

I prefer the mothers' room for myself...although I don't use a blanket in there like most other moms do. And I have nursed in the nursery when I was the nursery leader. And I don't really care what other people do, although nursing in the chapel during sacrament meeting is pushing the line, imo.

Just my thoughts.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

As for myself, I'll use the mother's room... all the time. RS is piped in there, so you have the volume control.

2nd hour GD is piped in, again, volume control very important. My babies never liked blankets either, flailing their arms up and off goes the blanket! I'll admit, though, I'm way prude about potentially exposing myself to people... I've nursed many times on a toilet seat in a stall when there's no other isolated places. I know, I'm weird.

As for other people, I voted for the you can stay put if you're in YW or RS, otherwise try for the mother's room. I just get creeped out when I notice creepy guys looking at women nursing. Other than that, I wouldn't be bothered. Oh, and I did nurse in nursery once.

crazymom5 · Senior Member

Well, I had and nursed all 5 of my kids even before they had a "Mother's room" in the church buildings. Most times I found an empty classroom or i sat in the foyer in the corner with my back to everyone. I know some sisters would take a folding chair into the restroom/locker room of the baptismal font to nurse, but that was too stuffy and hot for me.

Most of the moms in our ward use the mother's room. Ahh to have had nice comfy rocking chairs at church when my kids were nursing.

arbilad · Head Chef

I think that covering up is a good idea, and the mother's room should be used when convenient.
The sad truth is that there are those who will be titillated by seeing a woman's mammary glands when she is using them to nurse a baby. You can argue all you want that the young men and certain immature men shouldn't be getting their jollies off of watching a woman nurse uncovered, but the fact is that it happens. Unless a woman enjoys putting on a titillating show (and that's a whole different problem) she should cover up.

dilbert · Senior Member

I'm ambivalent about this issue.

I think it's good to be discrete, and covering up is good, but as has already been mentioned, many babies won't put up with covering up.

I think it's good to use the mother's lounge, but in some wards that isn't practical because there are too many nursing mothers.

I think nursing is natural and non-sexual, and that I have an obligation to look away if a mother is nursing in my presence more than a mother has an obligation not to nurse in my presence, but I agree with Arbilad that many boys and a fair number of men are not so enlightened and a woman nursing around such people is placing a stumbling block in their way (which is clearly their problem not hers, but it is still still thoughtful to help someone out rather than hinder them if you can).

One thing I am sure about is that the woman I once saw nursing her 3 year old without any attempt to cover up while she was sitting on the stand (she was speaking that day) took things a little too far.

It seems like it shouldn't be too hard to find some kind of happy medium where we encourage mothers to be as discrete as possible while we also encourage onlookers to look the other way.

Except that happy mediums are often extremely hard to come by.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

(long post warning)

Why this came up:

On another message board, a woman started a thread. Long story short, her bishop sent the R.S. president over to talk to her about breastfeeding. She is a self-proclaimed "lactivist" and does not believe in covering up or removing herself to feed her baby. In fact, she feels that covering up is sending the message that breastfeeding is dirty or wrong. She'll nurse her baby wherever she is, be it Sacrament meeting or Sunday school or R.S., and ovviously does not cover with anything but her shirt.

So the R.S. pres came, bearing cookies, asking her to use the Mothers' Room and/or be more modest when nursing her baby, and said that many people in the ward had complained about her "openness". She took extreme exception and went to see the Bishop herself.

The Bishop didn't budge. He talked to her about the importance of being modest, about young boys and, as Dilbert said, not-so-enlightened men. One man who was struggling with a porn addiction had specifically talked to the bishop about catching an eyefull, and how that was difficult for him. Her position was that it was his sin, his problem, and she'd feed her baby where and when she wants to. The bishop again asked her to either cover up or use the Mothers' Room and she refused. By her account, he "made threats" of some kind, and she said she'd go up the ladder clear to Pres. Hinckley if she had to.

Ultimately she didn't change anything, she talked to the S.P. and he told her the same, and it never really went anywhere except the bishop telling her her couldn't stop her, but to just know that he did not approve and she was making people uncomfortable.

(Believe it or not, that IS the abridged version!)

NOW. . . this is a complicated issue for me. In my family, nursing is hardly done at all, certainly not really talked about, and NEVER done in public. In my husband's family, heaven forbid anyone should think of breasts as sexual in any way, because they are FOR THE BABY doggonit, and so if a baby needs to eat, the mom just pulls it out and feeds the baby, no matter where she is or who is in her company.

I'm in the middle. When I'm with DH's family I'll nurse around everyone with a cover if I can, and if the baby won't tolerate that, I find a private room to nurse in. With my family, I don't feel at all put out to respect their discomfort, especially my dad, and go find an unoccupied room (the baby usually eats better that way, anyway). If I'm out and about, I'll go to my car to nurse usually.

At church, I always tend to use the Mother's Room, mostly because it's comfortable! I've been tempted to cover up and nurse in R.S. but it's honestly too much trouble. I wouldn't dream of it in Sacrament, it just wouldn't feel right to me. I guess I've just assumed that most nursing moms feel that way.

I've nursed my babies until they're 12-19 months old, and when they get older it's easier to fill them up on solids to get them through the times we're not home, and just nurse them at home.

Anyway, in light of this woman's story, and how STRONGLY she feels about it, I was wondering how people feel about nursing babies at church, overall. Personally, if I were in her position and had been told that I was making people uncomfortable, especially if the bishop cared enough to say anything about it, I'd tend to just comply and not rock the boat. But then, I'm not really a lactivist, I'm more live and let live.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Roper, what did that mean?

I appreciate Jen's comments. I think a certain level of pride plays into "militant lactivism", and the particular example she shared kind of illustrates that. Essentially, along the lines of you can't tell me what to do, even when the other side is not trying to take that approach.

dilbert · Senior Member

That woman's story reminds me of 1 Corinthians Chapter 8:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Now ^aas touching things offered unto ^bidols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but ^ccharity ^dedifieth.

2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to ^aknow.

3 But if any man love God, the same is ^aknown of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things ^athat are offered in sacrifice unto ^bidols, we know that an ^cidol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one ^aGod, the ^bFather, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one ^cLord Jesus Christ, by whom are ^dall things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their ^aconscience being weak is defiled.

8 But ^ameat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed lest by any means this ^aliberty of yours become a ^bstumblingblock to them that are ^cweak.

10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idols temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

12 But when ye sin so against the ^abrethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

13 Wherefore, if meat ^amake my brother to ^boffend, I will ^ceat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a nutshell, Paul is saying that of course there is nothing wrong with eating meat sacrificed to idols--the idols are nothing, that meat is just like any other meat, and as long as you understand that then you are fine. (Back in those days they would perform the sacrifice, and then cook the meat and offer it to the poor.)

BUT if there is someone who is struggling with idol worship, and they see you eating the meat that was sacrificed to idols and think that implies endorsement of those idols, then your eating that meat may contribute to their downfall. Christ died to save that weak person. As a follower of Christ one should be hesitant to knowingly do something that is likely to make another disciple's mortal probation harder.

We're all in this thing together, and the closer we come to Christ the more we want to lift those around us rather than push them down. Sometimes that means doing things differently than we would prefer.

dilbert · Senior Member

In other words, I don't think that story about that woman is a story about breastfeeding in public.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I think you're right Dilbert. Though, I also think "that woman" would disagree with your assessment.

Vaselyok · Newbie

I think that lady has a head problem!!!!!
I have no problem with nursing babys, but I have problems with people who don't take thought to their actions! Did she understand at all what she is doing?!
I'm from another country, maybe that's why it's so shocking to me....
In my country women can't nurse babies in public places at all. Its not because somebody will kill you, but because it's good manners to hide your private parts from other people.
This lady- she doesn't care about nursing, she cares about herself - showing everybody her chest and what a "good mom she is"!

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Welcome, Vaselyok!

I do agree that this woman has taken leave of her good manners. And I can't imagine not giving more thought to the people around me. It does boggle the mind.

Oh, and I wanted to be the first to use this emoticon for this thread.

Jen · Senior Bucketkeeper

Vaselyok wrote:

I think that lady has a head problem!!!!!
I have no problem with nursing babys, but I have problems with people who don't take thought to their actions! Did she understand at all what she is doing?!
I'm from another country, maybe that's why it's so shocking to me....
In my country women can't nurse babies in public places at all. Its not because somebody will kill you, but because it's good manners to hide your private parts from other people.
This lady- she doesn't care about nursing, she cares about herself - showing everybody her chest and what a "good mom she is"!

That, in a nutshell, was my reaction to the whole thing.

LOVE the scripture reference, dilbert!

nitasmile · Senior Member

-- Edited by nitasmile at 15:22, 2007-08-05

Fregramis · Senior Member

Roper wrote:

If others are uncomfortable, that's their problem. Hungry baby gets priority every time over someone else's prudish embarassment.

Amen. My feelings exactly.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Cat Herder wrote:
Roper, what did that mean?

It means that I'm a militant lactivist, La Leche League wacko, or whatever other label you wish to apply.

The Satanic sexualization of the female breast, and our society's hyper-perverted or hyper-prudish response to that sexualization (which both just feed each other into hyper-hypocricy), should have absolutely no influence on a baby's right to the best nutrition on earth, and a mother's choice to provide it.

I believe that we men should actively support a mother's choice to breastfeed wherever and whenever she feels comfortable doing it. If that's the mothers' room, fine. If that's the chapel, fine. With or without blanket, go for it. Why should she miss the Spirit and the fellowship of saints to feed her baby in a stinky restroom? That makes no sense to me.

As for the "proper age" to stop breastfeeding--that's the mother's decision and nobody else's.

To all the women here who have breastfed their children and who plan to do so: You have our (Roper and wife) unwavering support to breastfeed your children how, where, and for how long you choose. We applaud your sacrifice to give your children the healthiest possible start in life!

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

I am a proponent of breastfeeding. I think it's wonderful. I breastfed all three of my boys. I fought through just about every breastfeeding related difficulty. I kept doing it even when it was so hard that I might have spent the whole day crying.

I do not, however, think that successful breastfeeding and modesty are mutually exclusive. Modesty is important and that doesn't change just because breasts have a noble purpose. My body is still a temple and certain areas are still private.

In the two minutes it takes to walk to the mother's lounge, my baby isn't harmed. I am not harmed. That might not be able to be said of a man who struggles with lustful thoughts. Should I just say my convenience matters more and that it's his problem anyway?

Melissa · Veteran Member

Ah, breastfeeding. Of course I have to reply, though I'll refrain from getting all riled up. :)

I have been close to being a lactivist at times in my life. I breastfed my two oldest well into toddlerhood and was very involved in breastfeeding education and right to breastfeed.

Fast forward a few years. I have a baby again after several years of not nursing. What drives me now is my own comfort level. Honestly, it's mostly physical. I'm not physcially comfortable nursing on a folding chair. I need to lean back a little to nurse and can't do that there. If I'm not physically comfortable, my baby won't nurse. I think he can sense my discomfort and it affects him as well. I tend to nurse in the car, or in the nursery (our branch building doesn't have a mother's room) because it doesn't hurt my back and I'm more comfortable there. I need a soft place to sit somewhere that's quiet.
It does stress me out when my baby is pulling my shirt up and exposing more skin than I'm comfortable with. He doesn't tolerate a blanket over his head, but I am able to strategically place the blanket so that anyone in the room has their view blocked. I do so even in the nursery when I'm alone in there (well, me and baby, of course) because inevitably someone pokes their head in for one reason or another, and I know it embarrasses many of the men if they realize I'm nursing.

If I'm covered, it doesn't bother me at all to be around men. If you are a man and you want to help a woman who is breastfeeding feel comfortable, look her in the eye when you speak to her and don't pretend that she isn't there. We were visiting someone's home that was a new acquaintance to me when I needed to feed my newborn son. I was able to discreetly latch him on and I think I may have draped a burp cloth or something over me. In any case, nothing was visible. The husband of this couple was so funny. He wouldn't even look in that part of the room where I was. He'd talk to me, but look elsewhere. I know he was just trying to make sure he didn't make me uncomfortable. I thought it was sweet and a little funny, but really, I just want to be addressed normally. Eye contact assures that you won't accidentally see something you shouldn't and shows confidence in the woman that she's doing something normal, that doesn't require you to avert your eyes.

I personally have never known women who feel the need to flaunt it or "plop it out" or whatever phrase you want to use. I don't know exactly what is being referred to. If I latch my baby on without being covered by a blanket, am I flaunting it? If a small patch of skin (no nipple) is exposed while I'm nursing, am I showing off my chest? I do whatever I can to avoid people seeing skin and most especially nipple, but if it is exposed for a split second, is this what you all refer to of women who flaunt their chests?

I completely agree with the assesment that the woman in the other message board's thread has a problem with pride. It seems like she has taken a good cause and made it into something much bigger than the issue.

I feel that women have the right to breastfeed wherever they are (even Sacrament meeting if they feel the need) but that hinges on my perception of what a nursing mother would act like. If they were discreet like I am, I would have no problem with it. For example, if I were to nurse in the chapel, I'd make sure I was next to a wall and that nobody would be able to see unless they turned around and craned their necks.

Okay, I think I've said enough for now. Totally not riled up. :)

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Thank you Melissa, for that very calm and reasonable contribution.

I appreciate the analysis about pride in Jen's illustration. And while I agree with Dilbert's reminder that we shouldn't intentionally place barriers in front of people, we also need to look at the other perspective--the young man struggling with porn addiction. He doesn't yet understand a fundamental principle of repentance or recovery--he wants others to change their behavior so his problem isn't so hard. Yes modesty is important. But if the young man was staring long enough with the intent to "catch an eyeful," that's hardly the mother's fault.

My wife has breastfed our four children. At one time, my wife was a card-carrying member of La Leche League. For the past several years, we've lived in a poorer and mostly Latino section of town. In all that time, I've seen hundreds of women breastfeeding in public and at church. In all that time, I've never seen as much breast tissue as on CNN's 90 second fashion coverage of a Paris runway, or as displayed during a typical 30 minute sitcom, or as celebrated on a poster hanging in the window of the Victoria Secret store, or as flaunted on the covers of the various magazines near the supermarket checkout. And when was the last time anyone went to a swimming pool or to the beach? That's what I mean about hyper-hypocrisy on this issue.

Without exception, the moms I've noticed have been modest. Most of them are so good that it just looks like they're cradling their baby--even without a blanket I wouldn't be able to see skin unless I was actively seeking to.

-- Edited by Roper at 22:18, 2007-08-05

Dyany · Senior Member

Butts are natural, useful, and good.
Sex is natural, useful, and good.
Urinating, defecating, etc., are all natural and necessary.

So does this mean we should do them all publicly and not be embarrassed? Heavens NO!

Christ created clothing for Adam and Eve when they realized they were naked. Not because being naked was bad. Not even because they didn't want to show off to strangers (hello, they were ALONE there), but because it was the right and modest thing to do. Sometimes the reason we should be modest is JUST because it's commanded, without regard to how it affects others.

We don't need to justify it by comparing it to immodest entertainment or clothing styles.

Frankly, I think breastfeeding is GREAT. I really wish I could have my own kids and could do it myself. However, this has absolutely NO BEARING on attempting to be modest ('attempt' being a key word, because I know it's not always possible, esp. with fussy children) whilst doing it. You aren't saying sex is bad just because you try to not do it, refer to it blatantly, or even do anything resembling foreplay in public. You are simply being modest and appropriate.

And besides, oftentimes, people just need to learn patience and self-discipline. Come on, you can't tell me that the mother who 'whipped it out' on the stand to feed her 3 year old HAD to do it RIGHT THEN. Sacrament is one stinking hour. You feed the kid beforehand or afterwards, SHE CAN LAST. If a baby too small to last well is crying in a meeting, which is what they will do if they are that hungry, you take them out ANYWAY. At least if you're polite.

ETA: I just re-read and realized that it sounds like I think breastfeeders should closet themselves away. No, no. I just think that every attempt at modesty is good. A blanket is often quite enough.

-- Edited by Dyany at 09:54, 2007-08-06

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

hiccups wrote:

I am a proponent of breastfeeding. I think it's wonderful. I breastfed all three of my boys. I fought through just about every breastfeeding related difficulty. I kept doing it even when it was so hard that I might have spent the whole day crying.

I do not, however, think that successful breastfeeding and modesty are mutually exclusive. Modesty is important and that doesn't change just because breasts have a noble purpose. My body is still a temple and certain areas are still private.

In the two minutes it takes to walk to the mother's lounge, my baby isn't harmed. I am not harmed. That might not be able to be said of a man who struggles with lustful thoughts. Should I just say my convenience matters more and that it's his problem anyway?

Amen Hiccups.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I've long adhered to the slogan, "Breast is best..."

I think this applies to many situations and in pretty much all places. The world could solve a great many of the problems it has simply by breastfeeding... I call it, "The Miracle of Life."

But I think when possible, try to be modest, not for the other families, but for the sake of the Deacons...

--Ray

-- Edited by rayb at 09:45, 2007-08-06

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

The mother's lounge in our ward is a small closet like room. My wife would use it but unfortunately some mothers bring all five of their kids in their and they run around terrorizing the place. She covers herself as best she can because she knows some people find it offensive. Her mom gave her a bad time on our first kid because she didn't closet herself when the baby was hungry and hide from the world. When the kids hungry, you feed them. At home she tends not to cover herself like when we are in public but we think it is fine for the siblings to see the baby eating and how natural it is. She doesn't want them having some sort of complex that it is somehow dirty or shameful to breast feed your baby but that there are times and places for certain behavior. The four year old often runs around the house in his underpants only (his choice) but he knows we cover up when we are out. California is pretty liberal on this sort of thing and breast feeding in public is protected by state law with pretty much no restrictions. So folks here don't have too many problems.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

To the Mother's Lounge for you!! And Off with your head!

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

If you want to breastfeed until the child is in college, hey, more power to you. Just don't show me anything that my healthy, normal, well-adjusted Christian self doesn't wanna see - and which pretty much includes vast tracts of breast, genetalia, or buttocks.

HSR

-- Edited by Homestar Runner at 11:36, 2007-08-06

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Just another thing to keep in mind... these men who stare or allow themselves to get aroused or who may have a well-nourished (or even a developing) porn problem also sometimes have wives and children who may be affected. I realize that we are not responsible for the choices of others, but I also believe our actions cause "ripples" that we can scarcely imagine. However strongly I may believe in breastfeeding, if someone is *asking* me to help them keep morally straight, I will have to answer for my decision.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Nursing in Public
by RayB

Breast is best from East to west.
Though careful lest the deacons test
What's Never seen, and giggling green,
Some might dare call you obscene.

Though baby cries for need to sup
Perhaps its best you cover up.
Else by your peers, You be slapped
Because your baby's booby-trapped!

-- Edited by rayb at 08:20, 2007-08-07

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

'nuff said.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Poncho29 wrote:

'nuff said.

Maybe not.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

MrCoco served a mish in South Carolina and a woman they were getting to know started nursing her baby in a very ...uh... well, she wasn't shy about it, let's say that. She asked the Elders, "What do you think of THAT?" You have to know what kind of super nice but sheltered guy MrCoco was at this point to really get the belly-laugh out of this story that it deserves. He says, "I. Don't. Know." Just like Raymond says it on Everybody Loves Raymond. His comp. mumbled something about the Church really didn't take a stand on that... oh, man...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Everybody really does love Raymond... just in case you wondered...

Organist · Senior Member

Breast feeding is better than formula. There are so many barricades to breast feeding, like forcing mothers to leave church when those who use formula can stay there or else making them pump, which isn't much fun. We should tear down as many barriers to breast feeding as we can. Separate culture from gospel.

Dyany · Senior Member

Organist, we're just asking for modesty when doing so, like a blanket. I don't think that's too much too ask.

Besides, I can't have natural children, so I can't breastfeed. While it makes me sad, I will have to use formula. But I plan on generally taking my child out if I do so in church because the child will be FUSSY. It doesn't impede me feeding the child in the least, and any person who would choose not to breast feed because they would occasionally have to take 2 minutes to leave a room, is very weak and probably not wanting to breastfeed in the first place. I have NEVER known anyone to avoid or stop breastfeeding for such a stupid reason.

Homestar Runner · Senior Member

I was about to make a case to have public restrooms transformed into big open air fountain-like things with dozens of seats around them. I already had my list of Roper and Melissa quotes with a few terms changed. Then I read Dyanny's post, which accomplished the same thing with much less divisiveness.

But I just couldn't resist posting this:

Water That Tree!
(not by RayB)

Whip it out and set it free!
Though careful of militant prudery.
You call it water conservation
Some think it an obscene demonstration.

Though bladder yearns, you wince and burn,
Stand in that line and wait your turn.
For your urgent half-minute of private joy
'Cause not everyone was born a boy!

HSR

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Dyany wrote:
Organist, we're just asking for modesty when doing so, like a blanket. I don't think that's too much too ask.

And we're just asking for others not to stare and get all offended when baby pulls the blanket off for a second. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail