Mandating Family Sizes...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Mandating Family Sizes...

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

That stinketh.

hiccups · Future Queen in Zion

Imagine: They could hand out 2 baby "tickets" to each woman. It would be like drink tickets at the company Christmas Party. Only instead of giving away my tickets, I'd be begging other women for the ones they weren't planning to use.

Yeah, that'll work. hmm

-- Edited by hiccups at 12:49, 2007-07-20

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

I don't buy it. These same type people were preaching that we would run out of food by now. The zero population growth people are wack jobs. I don't buy one thing they say.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

The earth is full and enough to spare. Why would God create a world that would not accomodate all the children He planned to send?

It amounts to the government controlling reproductive rights of citizens. I wonder if religious conservatives and hard-core feminists will find themselves on the same side in this issue?

bokbadok · Senior Bucketkeeper

It's easy to blow stuff like this off if you believe the end of the world will come at some time before we all starve. Having the perspective the gospel brings makes it easy to poke holes in claims like this.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

It is not a problem of lack of resources, nor is it a problem of poverty. It is a problem of people living the lowest common denominator type of existence which allows governments of mankind to create situations where whole populations of people go without the basic necessities of life while wicked men and women rule by fear and bloodshed in opulent luxury.

The only way to end the cycle will be for people to live the gospel.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Or a covert team of modern Teancums to send home those wicked men and women who rule by fear and bloodshed. But I suppose others would rise up in their stead who are just as wicked.

Poncho29 · Senior Bucketkeeper

Mandating family sizes will only create new problems. Haven't they tried to do that in China?
Look at all the abandoned babies and orphanages because people had a baby when they shouldn't have or because it wasn't the "sex" they wanted. Look at the rate of abortions there. Plus, people just trek on over to our country instead so they can have the number of children they want.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I've heard the statement, "the earth is full and has enough to spare" before...lemme find where that is exactly...

Okay, D&C 104:17 "For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves."

This is the United Order section of the D&C. Going back a couple verses, this seems to be referring to the Saints, not the population of the Earth as a whole...

D&C 104:15-16 "And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine.
But it must needs be done in mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low. "

There are plenty of people going to bed hungry every night. Plenty of mothers wishing they could feed their children or wondering if they will even wake up in the morning. I doubt this scripture would give them any comfort.

Continuing on to verse 18... "Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart not his portion, according to the law of my gospel, unto the poor and the needy, he shall, with the wicked, lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment."

To me, this means people having enough comes to pass largely through our own efforts, much like we keep or lose our freedoms here in the States largely by our own actions. It is not a "done deal." It is possible to misuse and exhaust our resources. Just my opinion.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Coruption and tyranny cause hunger and malnutrition, not the size of the earth's population. There is no reason for anyone to be hungry in this day and age. If you knew the amount of amount of fruits and vegetables that are left to rot simply because they are oversized, blemished, sunburned, or not the perfect size it would make you sick to your stomach.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Totally agree. And it is our own doing.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Cocobeem wrote:

I've heard the statement, "the earth is full and has enough to spare" before...lemme find where that is exactly...

Okay, D&C 104:17 "For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves."

This is the United Order section of the D&C. Going back a couple verses, this seems to be referring to the Saints, not the population of the Earth as a whole... I disagree on the scope. The Lord maketh the rain to fall upon the wicked as well as the righteous. Was this information given in conjunction with the concept of the United Order and law of consecration? Sure. It is given as preface to remind people that there is no shortage of resource for that which is needful to sustain life and build righteous civilization. It is not saying there will only be enough for the righteous or those that enter into the United Order or for the members of the church. What is the natural tendency of mankind? To hoard resources to gain advantage over their neighbor. Yet another reason why the natural man / woman is an enemy to God. One can not follow the Lord's way if he or she is motivated by greed and the "power" that comes with getting that corner of barley before another player.

D&C 104:15-16 "And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine.
But it must needs be done in mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low. "

Continuing on to verse 18... "Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart not his portion, according to the law of my gospel, unto the poor and the needy, he shall, with the wicked, lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment." Italics and bold added for emphasis. This has nothing to do with what I see as an implication in your next statement, that those who have enough get it by their own successful efforts and are therefore better than those who are poor. There will always be poor (and rich) among us until such time as people can live the fulness of The Lord's economy. That is part of the mortal condition. Being poor does not equate to being lazy or being less righteous or less successful. Be careful what is unwittingly implied in what is said. I am reminded of 3 Nephi 6:10-13 and some of the situation described by Samuel the Lamanite in the middle of Helaman 13. I understand the scripture to mean that it is alright for man (as the plural of mankind and as individual's in an entreprenual fashion) to take (or "borrow") of the abundance available as long as he is doing it for the proper reasons... meaning to benefit more than just himself. And that in so doing, there is an inherent obligation in that assumed stewardship to use excess to the betterment and wellbeing of those in need.

To me, this means people having enough comes to pass largely through our own efforts, much like we keep or lose our freedoms here in the States largely by our own actions. It is not a "done deal." It is possible to misuse and exhaust our resources. Just my opinion. Resources can be misused, it happens all the time. And, at a micro level, resources can be exhausted by poor stewardship over the resource, but not at a macro global level, otherwise that would imply The Savior is a liar... I personally trust what He says about the earth being full with more than enough more than the neo-gaia movements that have permeated and co-opted just about any environmental / social policy think tank and whose ultimate sponsor is the adversary...

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"... those who have enough get it by their own successful efforts and are therefore better than those who are poor."

This is actually the opposite of what I was saying. I didn't imply this at all. You inferred it.

What I'm saying is, if everyone is to have enough to eat and not go hungry, it will come to pass by what we as people do. It's not a magic manna-like existence. If the poor are not fed by the rich, how will they eat? Are we not commanded to give to the poor without regard to how they arrived at those unfortunate circumstances? If they are poor we have only ourselves to blame, is my point.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Okay, understand. The wording you chose didn't convey that, though.

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

You find what you seek.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Then why haven't I found a billion dollars yet

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Cuz yer bad. Only good people are rich, remember?

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

I thought it was only the good die young. I must be really evil, cuz I'm old and poor.