Imperfect Confessions...

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Imperfect Confessions...

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray, thanks for introducing this topic.

Confession is between me and the Lord, and Priesthood authority and whoever has been harmed by my actions, when necessary. It's nobody else's business.

However, we also have in church history accounts of the level of disclosure among those in the School of the Prophets, and we have implications of the closeness enjoyed by the Twelve. In those settings, with the assurance of trust and confidentiality, I imagine they share with each other their weaknesses and offer strength to each other in true fellowship.

For me, I guess there would be two guiding principles.

1. What is my intent in confessing to others? If there is any hint of selfishness, then it's not appropriate.

2. Am I being sensitive to the feelings of those with whom I will share? Frankly, most people don't want to hear it.

So for me, it's confession to myself, the Lord, Priesthood authority when necessary, victims if any, and always my companion, whom I trust absolutely, and who will find out eventually anyway so I might as well be up-front with it. smile

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

That's what I have always believed as well, but what about the aspect of confidentiality creating the appearance of perfection?

--Ray

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

By "creating the appearance of perfection" do you mean that one tries to "cover his sins" with the intent of deceiving others, or do you mean that others interpret a person's confidential walk with Christ as somehow "more perfect than me"?

In the first instance, the person would be a hypocrite, but that doesn't mean a person should then start confessing things publicly, because that, too, can be a form of pride--giving alms to be seen of men.

In the second instance, the perception is the responsibility of the perceiver, and again that doesn't mean a person should start confessing things publicly in order to alter public perception--once again giving alms to be seen of men.

There is another perspective I think is germane: Twelve-step plans, including the one officially endorsed by the Church in the addiction recovery program, call for a fearless inventory and confession to self, God, and one other person. My understanding is that one other person should be a bishop or spouse, or if guided, the person's sponsor in the program. Having attended twelve-step meetings, I am uncomfortable with the level of disclosure that sometimes happens (but that's my issue.) Some of it is obviously attention-getting behavior. Most of it is sincere. If it is cathartic for the one sharing, then I'm supportive. It's just a different method of confession than I choose.

dilbert · Senior Member

rayb wrote:

That's what I have always believed as well, but what about the aspect of confidentiality creating the appearance of perfection?

--Ray

Who cares what other people think? If anyone thinks that I am perfect because I do not broadcast my sins, then they are extremely naive.

Besides the Savior, how many perfect people are there? Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Nobody is perfect. Nobody. You know that one family that you think does everything right? Not perfect. You know that man who you look up to, and even envy a little because he seems to never make a mistake? Not perfect either.

Let other people worry about their own sins, and I'll worry about mine.

Although, if you are talking about weaknesses rather than sins, I think that it may be a kind thing to display a weakness or two to someone who is feeling intimidated by you, under the right circumstances. I think that such a thing shouldn't be needed (because people shouldn't be comparing themselves to you in the first place), but the reality is that there are many people who will feel more at ease with you if they are familiar with your failings.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

I care about what other people think, not because I want to impress them or any such stuff, but because I want to help them over times of discouragement and feelings of inadequacy.

I know from an intellectual standpoint a lot of these answers make sense, but I think that at a certain level people genuinely feel overwhelmed by all the expectations they see in the church, to the point where they throw up their hands and say, "Why bother?"

This is what I wish to be sensitive to. Joseph Smith said something to the effect that if we wish to save souls we must be willing to descend into the bowels of hell. I don't want to suffer or burn in those hells, but I think I understand in part how one gets trapped down there...

--Ray

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
I got a speeding ticket early saturday morning on the way to the temple.

It's probably terrible of me... but I wish the brother I was riding with last Saturday WOULD have gotten stopped! I was able to go to the temple because it was our ward's temple day, so I do appreciate that... It was a wonderful session, once we got there... but the brother that was driving the vehicle I was riding in drove too fast and tailgated the cars in front of us all the way DOWN and then BACK UP Black Canyon Hwy... That is the SAME road where the accident we were in 2 years ago happened... Needless to say, I was a basket case by the time I got home...

You would have thought we were running late, right??? NOPE!!! We were over an hour early for the session that the ward had arranged to be in. So once we got there we had MORE than enough time to get ready leisurely and prepare for the session... That actually was fortunate, cause after THAT ride I needed some soothing to my soul! This brother could easily have slowed down to the speed limit and gotten us there with 1/2 an hour to get ready and be waiting in the chapel...

Two morals to THAT story... 1) Be very careful about which car you ride in... AND... 2) 72 yr old retired traveling salesmen make LOUSY chauffeurs...

As far as showing my human failings... I do an okay job of that, I guess... I am CERTAIN there is no one that thinks I am even close to perfect!!!

fear of shiz · Profuse Pontificator

I believe the principle in 12 Step programs is that sharing your problems and weaknesses helps make you humble and helps to create an atmosphere of safety and support, as people with similar problems can relate. Church meetings are different, and probably shouldn't have the same level of disclosure. However, I think that some of degree of this would be very powerful in a church context. When I was EQ teacher, I would often bring up things that I struggle with, that were pertinent to the lesson, as a way to generate discussion and also as a way to let the EQ members know that it is okay to have doubts, have weaknesses, struggle with problems, etc.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

Ray, is this the JS quote you were thinking of?

Thy mind, 0 man, if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss and the broad expanse of eternity. Thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, B. H. Roberts, ed.. 7 vols., 2nd ed. rev. (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1951), 3:295.
In response to this statement

I know from an intellectual standpoint a lot of these answers make sense, but I think that at a certain level people genuinely feel overwhelmed by all the expectations they see in the church, to the point where they throw up their hands and say, "Why bother?"

and in the spirit of this thread, I'll share something from my past that may or may not apply (but I get points for trying, right?)

When I was at going through my commissioning program, the instructors kept adding additional tasks and expectations to our schedule. We began staying up late and getting up early to get everything done. As a result, our academic and physical performance began to suffer. Soon, the stress began to turn minor disagreements or misunderstandings into huge issues. We began to feel animosity toward the instructors. Several cadets began saying things like, "This is not what I signed up for. I'm outta here if things don't change." Soon all productive activity ground to a halt as all of our resuorces were spent "catching up" or reaccomplishing things that didn't meet the instructors' standards. The instructors continued the pressure for a few more days until all of the cadets were about to riot. Then we had a conference I will never forget.

That learning experience was specifically designed to push each of us to failure, so that we could internalize two key principles of leadership:

1) As a leader, I will never have enough resources to accomplish all that is expected, so I have to exercise judgment in selecting which things are "mission critical" and make sure those things get accomplished. Sometimes I'll just have to let other things go unaccomplished.

2) As a leader, I will fail when I rely wholly on myself. I must acknowledge my own limits, and ask for help from those who have strengths where I am weak.

I simply don't have the resources to accomplish all of the expectations that it seems the church places on me. So I focus on those that are mission critical. Sometimes that means I miss "plannning meetings", or that I tell the EQ that I have a family commitment and won't be available to help another family move, or, horror of horrors, that I only get phone calls to a HT family instead of a visit (and therefore don't get 100%.)

It seems to me that our Heavenly Father's plan is specifically designed to overwhelm us to the point of failure, so that we continually re-learn that we are weak, and that we must continually ask for help.

-- Edited by Roper at 09:17, 2007-06-19

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

roper wrote--"It seems to me that our Heavenly Father's plan is specifically designed to overwhelm us to the point of failure, so that we continually re-learn that we are weak, and that we must continually ask for help."

Wow, that's awesome! Last week I told my bishop if he didn't release me from one of my callings, I was going to have to kick his ass. I felt good at the time, but now I really feel good.

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

He forget that part of the paradigm of not running faster than we have strength when we focus solely on the other side of it, namely what Elder Maxwell said concerning righteous service...

(paraphrase) "The Lord doesn't ask about our ability, but about availability, and once we have proven our dependability, he blesses us with the capability."

I don't know that I would say conceptually Heavenly Father sets us up for failure. Rather, His plan sets us up for success, though not all outcomes along the way are guaranteed to provide successful results.

It is a lot like the story of the toddler trying to move all the rocks and stuff in a sand box and he can't move the biggest one despite having tried everything he can think of... the child's father is nearby watching and then responds "You haven't tried everything yet, because you haven't asked me."

So it goes with confessions. Roper said it well. We don't need to know everything about everyone. Generally, if one is kind of in tune with the Spirit, they can develop the ability to discern whether someone is honest by perceiving their countenance. I don't want to know what other people's sins are via their confession, and for the most part am quick to forgive. But, if the Spirit directs them to share and I can learn from them and their experience by the Spirit, then that is edification and builds both up.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Great responses, folks. Especially Roper's (no wonder you're a character in one of my books... ahem. :) comments about leadership. I really appreciate all the gentle reminders and words of wisdom. This is the sort of stuff I really crave.

Thanks again.

--Ray

PS> And Bok, I deserved my ticket. I didn't even argue with the cop. I just paid it and went on my way. I'm sorry your guy didn't get a ticket. Hopefully he will soon.

-- Edited by rayb at 15:36, 2007-06-19

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

"I really appreciate all the gentle reminders and words of wisdom."

Anytime, ray.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Roper, your words are very wise on this. Thanks for sharing. It helped put things in perspective for me.

Roper · Senior Bucketkeeper

rayb wrote:
no wonder you're a character in one of my books... ahem.

Cool!

Am I wise and battle-hardened leader who can also dual-wield katanas or light sabers or something? Or am I an astute and convincing diplomat who can also dual wield large-caliber handguns with deadly accuracy?

And where can I get a copy of this book?

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

You start out as a bad guy--as one of the guardsmen holding the main characters... but Roper switches sides when he discovers the truth about his boss, and you're good with rope tricks... though I haven't had a chance to really demonstrate that aspect of your character yet. I imagine you'll be more involved in book 4 and 5. Or you may end up dead... So far you've shown no great ability to fight, but you're a strong and able bodied guy... and a nice guy, who feels guilty about having been duped by a political manipulator and feels driven to find some way to make amends.

--Ray

PS> Oh yea, and I don't expect this book to be published for many years. It's the third in a series, and I doubt the first will be published within the next five years... but we'll see... I'm working on it. Who knows, maybe I'll let you read drafts if it takes too long. :)

-- Edited by rayb at 18:49, 2007-06-19

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Now describe MY character... WHAT??? I'm not IN your book???

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Can I be Roper's comedy side kick?

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

I wanna' be in a book!

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

Come here Coco... I'll put you in a book...

{Coco approaches, and when she gets near... WHACKSMACK!... Cat slams the giant hardbacked book shut on her, smashing her much like the subject matter of this book}

Cocobeem · Keeper of the Holy Grail

Well, well. When your keys disappear or you can't find your wallet... or you could've sworn you brushed your hair and look at that - it's all messed up again... you'll know whom to thank. evileye

Cat Herder · Understander of unimportant things

PollyAnna · Senior Bucketkeeper

Wait a minute...!!! Coco's a Pressed Fairy??? How did I miss that???