Potatoes for Plastic

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

Potatoes for Plastic

arbilad · Head Chef

That is very cool. Making plastic out of potatoes or corn is definitely the way to go. It provides work for farmers, reduces our dependency on oil, and allows us to more easily recycle plastics.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

It initially sounds good until you start to consider the energy costs involved in producing the crop and that increased demand will raise the cost of potatoes and products made from potatoes. Also, we can only produce so much due to resource constraints. The same, of course, goes for corn and we are starting to experience that. Corn is an energy intensive crop to produce. Corn is used in many products and as feed. We are seeing rising costs for all corn related products due to it increasingly being used to produce ethanol.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

It's an interesting problem, still there's something really appealing about the possibility of being entirely self-contained in our material and energy needs... :)

--Ray

TitusTodd · Senior Member

Some of the issues can be alleviated to a degree but not eliminated. If renewable energy sources are used to produce the potatoes the energy impact will not come from fossil fuels. Scientists are always coming up with ideas to grow more in less space. If production can be boosted enough to keep up with increased demand, the demand factor on cost will be lessened.

So, I don't want to be totally down on the idea but we have to look at it realistically and plan accordingly.

arbilad · Head Chef

I have confidence in our ability to produce more corn, potatoes, etc. After all, population control advocates have been saying for a century that we couldn't support a population anywhere near where we have now. And yet we have continued to grow. Farming techniques, for instance, keep getting better. I'm sure that the equipment that Jason sells now only has a basic resemblance to the equipment his grandfather sold. There are problem many things he sells that his grandfather wouldn't have dreamed of.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

There's only so much land, so much water and so much labor. Sure, we can stretch our resources out and get more "bang for our buck" but it can only go so far. The soil itself can only take so much of a crop due to soil nutrients being depleted.

I'm no expert on all this but I have my concerns and I'm not the only one. I'm not opposed to these new sources for fuel and plastics coming out to replace oil but I think we need to realize they may only take us so far. We should never dive in head on into something until we explore the possible ramifications.

arbilad · Head Chef

With current practices, yes, our ability to produce is limited. But with enough time and energy, all those obstacles can be overcome. I'm no expert either. For instance, I don't know what percentage of arable land in the US is farmed. But the US is still full of wide open spaces. Sure, a lot of that is plains or desert. But even the early Mormon pioneers were able to make the desert bloom. We have much more advanced methods now. Heck, you could grow algae and compost it for use in farmland. The algae can grow on water, and oceans cover most of the Earth's surface. Some forms of algae have all sorts of nutrients. I'm sure you could make good soil with the help of algae.
As far as water, that can be overcome as well. For one thing, you need to fix the politics of it. In the county I live in, farmers are going out of business because they aren't allowed to use their wells. There's no good reason - our reservoirs are full or nearly full this year. But even once we start managing to use the readily available water wisely, there are other resources. The technology exists, for instance, to build a nuclear desalinization plant. Put a few along our coastlines, and you could have copious amounts of freshwater, all without depending on oil.
Labor is a renewable resource, too. Encourage people to have more kids. I forget the numbers (and I'm probably going to sound stupid for getting it wrong), but it's something like one farmer can feed 100 people. So, as you expand the available labor pool, you expand the available food faster than the demand rises.
All the problems you mention can be solved. In fact, there are vast untapped reserves in the case of each resource you mention. We just need to work out the problems to utilize those reserves. For instance, the unemployed living in FEMA trailers in Louisiana could probably fill the farm laborer shortage in Colorado. The trick is to get them to want to work at all

I'm not some rabid anti-oil bigot. Actually, I work in the oil and gas industry. Specifically, I work with software for mapping oil and gas pipelines. But I do think we desperately need to reduce our dependency on foreign oil.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

If you look at the history of Agriculture, just in the last 20 years through seed genetics we have greatly increased the yield potential of seeds. Through precision farming practices we have been able to begin to take advantage of the yield potential of the new seed. We are just beginning to scratch the surface though. By controling the controlables such as soil nutrients, seed depth, cultivation, chemical application, and water timing we will see yields begin to grow towards the potential of the current seed crop. Further strides in seed genetics will increase those yields further.

Most of the farmable acreage on the planet yields no where near its full potential. Agriculture outside the developed western nations is in some cases 40 years or more behind where we are today. In some areas of Africa, South America, and China it is downright primitive. Increased demand will bring these areas along to meet the world's needs.

Will we see some price increases at the Supermarket. Yes, but historically food has been relatively cheap in this country in many cases causing farmers to leave some crops unharvested when the price is too low or to use heavy culling to keep supplies low. Firming prices will lead to increased supply of those crops. Those crops where there is an oversupply and soft pricing will be replaced by crops where the demand is greater.

The production capacity is available. Soil nutrients can be replaced either through application of nutrients and/or through crop rotation. As technology improves and demand increases, marginal ground that would normally not be farmed or only be farmed on a limited basis will be brought into production.

If there is a shortage of food or fiber in this world, don't look to the lack of farm land or capacity, look to bad judgement on the parts of governments. Zimbabwe is a prime example.

rayb · Hot Air Balloon

And potatoes are like the cheapest thing in the supermarket... it'd be nice to use them for something other than artery clogging... :)

--Ray

TitusTodd · Senior Member

The only cheap potatoes down here are the nasty little red ones smile

.

I'm definitely not stating that we don't have a lot of ability to increase production of various crops. The solutions you mention Arbilad may be true but are not as simple as they sound. Water is not plentiful in many places. For example, our water comes from an aquifer and reservoirs. Both of those sources are depleting. Sure, water desalinization is an option and as demand goes up for water it will be a more attractive option. However, that water will require distribution just as distribution of fertilizers and such will.

Again, please do not get me wrong - I like what is coming out, I just don't want us to think the solutions are so simple. Let's do it but do it right.

Sidenote:
You mentioned algae, arbilad. They are actually starting to produce ethanol from it. I don't know how much bi-product comes from that process but what is left may still be a good source of fertilizer.

arbilad · Head Chef

You're right, Titus, the solutions I mentioned are not easy. But to my non-expert mind, they seem possible.
BTW, I don't think that we need to totally get away from using oil. I just think that it's important to reduce, then eliminate, our dependence on it. And there are actually technologies whereby we can produce our own oil, by thermal depolymerization, for instance, which is a process whereby they can turn turkey carcasses into good oil.
So, as far as transportation of fertilizer, I'm fine with them using gasoline to transport it. I'm even fine with them using gasoline to plow and harvest the fields. I don't think it's anywhere near as limited as environmentalists say.
But if you do want an option to transport fertilizer without gasoline, you can always use pipelines. I'm not sure of the specific challenges involved in transporting fertilizer, but I know that they transport coal slurry by pipeline. It's basically solid coal with water added so that it can travel along a pipeline. Do the same thing with the fertilizer. If it's solid fertilizer, add water and send it along the pipe. The booster stations could run off something like hydrogen fuel cells, if you want.
That's interesting about making ethanol from algae.
The options aren't easy, but they're there.
BTW, my wife adores the little red potatoes above all other sorts of potato. One reason is that they have less starch.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Titus is right about water being and issue but it is an issue mainly because of environmentalist pressure on government. 75% of the earth's surface is water. The majority of the water in our lakes, rivers, and streams runs right into the ocean. Water is so common that it is unreal. But you can't build a dam or even enlarge a current one because the enviros go mad.

TitusTodd · Senior Member

Of course, water availability varies by area and season. Here, there aren't any rivers to dam. We had someone here buying up water rights (water from the underground acquifer) to sell it down state. It was not a popular idea and no one wanted to pay to pipe it down there.

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Obviously, resources are different in each location. Dams tend to lend themselves to some areas and not to others.

arbilad · Head Chef

Jason, you're not planning to dam Death Valley?

salesortonscom · Wise and Revered Master

Yep!! That way my water is pre warmed!